Is Enchantment Destruction in Black Becoming too Powerful?
General forum
Posted on Sept. 18, 2024, 8:20 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
WotC stated that black's ability to destroy enchantments would be far less powerful than that of white or green, but I feel that Withering Torment is too powerful, since its drawbacks are not sufficient to prevent it from encroaching on white and green's territory; for a mere 1 additional mana over Feed the Swarm, Withering Torment is an instant, has a lower loss of life, and (most significantly) allows its caster to destroy their own enchantments, which goes against WotC's philosophy that black should not be able to destroy or otherwise remove its own enchantments, given that color's focus on "deal with the devil" effects.
What does everyone else say about this matter? Do you believe that enchantment destruction in black is becoming too powerful? I certainly am interested to hear your responses.
wallisface says... #3
I should also note, from discussions i’ve seen so far, most people are in agreement that competitively Feed the Swarm is much better than Withering Torment - so assuming that holds true Wotc have only made a spell worse than what’s already available.
September 18, 2024 9:13 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #4
I'm pretty excited for Withering Torment in my Black aligned decks that don't have access to White or Green. Three mana is hefty, but it's not nearly as flexible as something like Stroke of Midnight, for a comparable CMC & rarity. I wouldn't replace Feed the Swarm, but might run it as a compliment in more Grixis leaning color combos.
Picking the option to destroy a creature feels less ideal, especially when compared to other creature-centric removal options in Black like Bitter Triumph, Go for the Throat, or Infernal Grasp. If anything, Withering Torment is just Infernal Grasp with enchantment removal stapled onto it for 1 more mana.
I'm seeing more artifact heavy commanders more frequently in my main play group, like Brenard, Ginger Sculptor, Ygra, Eater of All, a Dr. Who Historic Duo, and Rocco, Street Chef, to name a few. Given this uptick in these varied artifact strats, I'm shifting towards more artifact punishing interaction or removal, than I am enchantment focused stuff.
September 18, 2024 9:26 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #5
wallisface you have to take into account that a LOT of black decks deal with graveyard shenanigans and enchantments like Rest in Peace and its ilk are extremely problematic... to the point Meteor Golem saw loads of play. 3 mana and 2 life is nothing.
To the OP's question. No, these 1 time effects on sorceries/instants are fine and if you're running it, you're already highly prioritizing removing problematic enchantments from your opponents. If they give black repeatable enchantment removal on an enchantment/artifact or even a creature then they've gone too far. (Granted Canoptek Tomb Sentinel offers just that for the right deck... /cough Marchesa, the Black Rose /cough)
September 19, 2024 12:30 a.m.
wallisface says... #6
Last_Laugh you have to take into account that Feed the Swarm is likely the better card and sees almost no play in Pioneer or Modern, a pretty clear indicator it’s not remotely playable there.
What format are you referring to when you imply this is viable? I assume Standard?
September 19, 2024 12:45 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #7
Commander. Sorry, I don't play anything else and didn't think to specify.
September 19, 2024 12:50 a.m.
wallisface says... #8
Everything's going to be evaluated differently in a casual multiplayer format. None of my discussion points have been on that format, so I think we’re talking on entirely different wavelengths
September 19, 2024 2:28 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #9
wallisface This is General forums, not Modern... and like me, in no way did you specify formats. Your comment came across as low-key insulting, like "your opinion isn't wanted, how dare you speak up... casual". Maybe I'm being sensitive and taking it out of context, but "casual" is a pretty common superiority complex insult on the interwebs these days.
September 19, 2024 5:35 a.m.
wallisface says... #10
Last_Laugh there was no insult meant by it. Magic is divided by competitive play, and casual play. Commander is a format created for casual play, so it's completely fair to label it as that - I did not mean any malice or insult by stipulating that. I personally haven't seen any hate towards this divide at-all, and I would think the people looking-down on casual-play are being childish.
I am aware this is a general forum, and my comments have all been from my own play experiences, just as yours are. I get that I also didn't mention an explicit format, but I did use the words "sideboard" and "competitive" in my first two posts, which I was hoping would set an appropriate tone for where my thoughts were coming-from.
And, I was not trying to invalidate your point at-all - my comment on us talking on "entirely different wavelengths" was due to the fact that we are. Neither of our viewpoints are invalid, but their appropriate to an entire different ecosystem. Your initial post directed my-way seemed to be trying to invalidate my commentary, which is what I was defending. But if we're talking from the vantage of entirely different formats, then trying to do any kind of comparison feels counterproductive.
September 19, 2024 5:56 a.m.
TheoryCrafter says... #11
There are cards such as Revoke Existence and Tear Asunder(without the kicker cost its a color shifted functional reprint) that exiles the enchantment for 2 mana. 3 mana to only destroy the enchantment and lose 2 life regardless of whether it leaves the battlefield in the process? On a black spell it sounds like a reasonable power level to me.
September 19, 2024 8:29 a.m.
As far as power level I think the card is fine... I wont lie if your playing a budget mono colored deck its nice to not have to resort to Ratchet Bomb for something like Rest in Peace
. Granted one is 3 mana instant and the other is a 2 mana sorcery its awesome to know that even if it isn't on you opening hand they are both nice to see if you draw into them.
Granted its a little weird for colors overlapping in capabilities but overall I think its a boon for budget players so long as WOTC stays true to the idea of colors and are great at doing a thing but at least can do it.
September 19, 2024 8:49 a.m.
its very well balanced, i don't even see why it's a discussion.
September 20, 2024 12:12 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #14
magwaaf, I mentioned my reasons for thinking that this card is too powerful in my opening post.
wallisface, I would absolutely pay 1 additional mana for an instant over a sorcery, since that difference could mean the difference between victory and defeat.
September 20, 2024 8:39 p.m.
wallisface says... #15
DemonDragonJ as has kindof been addressed already in this thread, mana costs are very format dependent (for example, commander games are far more forgiving with letting players get-away with casting higher mana spells) - but for pretty much all of the competitive formats, that 1 additional mana of Withering Torment is more likely to cost you the game than the sorcery-speed of Feed the Swarm. From what i've seen online the overwhelming majority of the competitive community are in agreement that Feed the Swarm is just a much stronger card (not that it's particularly playable to begin with, however).
In commander/multiplayer/casual formats, I can definitely see the additional mana cost of Withering Torment being justifiable for its added utility. But in prettymuch any 1-v-1 game, it's just too high a mana-cost to take seriously.
September 20, 2024 9:17 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #16
wallisface, wow, I was not aware of that, since I always thought that flexibility was more important than cost.
September 21, 2024 9:10 a.m.
wallisface says... #17
DemonDragonJ mana efficiency is one of the most important parts of the game. In most formats (commander included) games are generally finished after each player has had 4-5 turns. You only have soo-much mana at your disposal over that time. You need to maximise what you’re able to do in that time to minimise your chances of being the one losing the game.
Lower mana costs are in many ways the best form of flexibility - it allows you to having the option to cast a spell sooner, and/or make additional plays on your turn that can progress you towards a winning position.
September 21, 2024 5:26 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #18
wallisface, that makes sense, since I certainly have been making a deliberate effort to reduce the mana curves of my decks, recently
wallisface says... #2
3 mana is very high - so high that most decks will sooner just decide that their black deck can't remove enchantments instead of putting this into their sideboard.
It’s completely terrible compared to white & greens ability to remove enchantments for 1 mana. The difference between 1 mana and 3 is astronomical.
September 18, 2024 8:58 p.m. Edited.