Is it a proxy or not, the great debate
General forum
Posted on July 2, 2020, 11:03 p.m. by DarkMagician
So I recently had a disagreement with a fellow player. He argues that gold bordered cards are proxies. I argue that they don't fit the definition. What are your opinions on the subject?
I guess it comes down to what the definiton of a proxy is. Gold bordered cards were officially printed by WotC as purchasable product. Because they're from WotC does that make them not proxies? But they're not tournament legal. Does that make them proxies?
Ultimately it depends on your definition of proxies, however I would say that they fit into a third category. Not proxies (printed by WotC) but not tournament legal either. And by default, any format legal deck must be all tournament legal cards (and the gold bordered cards have a different back). So again, not proxies, but you should ask permission if you're using them.
July 2, 2020 11:25 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #4
Gidgetimer The definition of proxies is not a card that is illegal for tournament play. In fact wizards definition is exactly the opposite of what you stated. To wizards a proxy is a card created by a judge in order to take the place of another card in a deck because that card has become unplayable. Full art altars do not fit this definition either and may be deemed legal for play by a tournament judge so long as it meets the requirements of WotC which are (if I'm remembering correctly) that the card can not be distinguished from other cards by feel once sleeves and the artwork must not be intended to lead an opponent to believe that the card is any other card (name and text must be visible).
enpc what's your reasoning that all cards in a format legal deck must be tournament legal even if that deck is never used in a tournament? WotC specifically labels them as not tournament legal but has no policy in place banning them from any other game play.
TypicalTimmy Your argument is very close to the one that I made. However I have one disagreement with you as to the definition of proxy. Within the game proxy has a definition clearly defined by WotC. Seeing as how language is always evolving the definition of any word will change over time. Within the realm of MtG the official meaning of proxy is a card created by a judge intended to represent another card that has become unplayable during a tournament.
July 3, 2020 10:42 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
Fine I should have said "common usage", not definition. The common usage of "proxy" is "An object that isn't a tournament legal magic card, but is being used to represent one". I am sorry for saying "definition.
Also, full art swap altars are not tournament legal as per the tournament rules. It isn't "must not be intended to deceive..." it is "make the card art unrecognizable." Tournament rule 3.3 says in part "Artistic modifications are acceptable in sanctioned tournaments, provided that the modifications do not make the card art unrecognizable, contain substantial strategic advice, or contain offensive images. Artistic modifications also may not cover or change the mana cost or name of the card." A full art swap is definitely making the art unrecognizable.
July 3, 2020 2:04 p.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #6
DarkMagician: even if a deck never goes to a tournament, you can't say that your deck is format legal if not all the cards in it are legal for that format. its like putting a rare in a "pauper deck" and then trying to say its still pauper because i'm not going to tournaments. wotc doesn't ban cards from "other game play" because they physically can't. they can't ban cards from casual play.
July 3, 2020 4:50 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #7
TonyStark9001 Except cards like Vampiric Tutor are format legal. There's a difference between format legal and tournament legal in this case. A rare in a pauper deck on the other hand is not format legal so the comparison here doesn't make much sense to me.
Gidgetimer I've never heard anybody use that definition in my 20 years of playing. The common definition seems to be more along the lines of a mockup or a card that is altered to or is used to represent another card. A gold bordered card is an official product of WotC with the only difference being the back and the border of the card. Frankly I fail to understand why they're not tournament legal when in an opaque sleeve.
July 3, 2020 11:28 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
DarkMagician obviously you have heard someone use proxy in that manner, the person you had the disagreement with. You asked for opinions, and I gave mine. I have always heard people call anything they are using in place of an actual tournament legal card a proxy. Like every single person I have played with will call paper in front of a different card a proxy. You obviously didn't really want people's opinions. So I'm out. I am unsubbing from the thread. Please refrain from tagging me further.
July 4, 2020 2:28 a.m.
DarkMagician: I'm not implying that all cards that aren't tournament legal are proxies. But all proxies are not tournament legal by default (yes there are some tournaments that allow that by it is a deviation in rules), and here I am using "proxy" to not to refer to a replacement created by a judge by instead the commonly used meaning (as per the thread).
At the end of the day, all cards in any deck and in any format should be by default, tournament legal. If we're talking about kitchen table, then everything goes out the window. But the standard for MtG should be what's allowed in tournament play, as this is the common benchmark. WotC may not ban them in casual play, but the rules become murky in casual play as it comes down to a social contract between players.
So my point is that while gold bordered cards are not proxies, they are not allowed in tournament play as they do not meet a bunch of the criteria.
As for the argument that the original epression in MtG was that a "proxy" was a fill in card provided by a judge to replace a damaged card, yes, this is one definiton of the word. However, as we have seen a growth in digital manipulations of cards (via photoshop or other pieces of software) and we have seen people create cards that are not just a modification of the original one (i.e. extended the artwork), the term "proxy" has grown and evolved.
Gidgetimer says... #2
Gold bordered cards are by the strictest definition not tournament legal magic cards and are therefore proxies. So are full art swap altars, by the same definition.
What I find more humorous than if gold bordered cards are proxies or not is the large proportion of people who say gold bordered are proxies but full art swaps are not.
July 2, 2020 11:11 p.m.