Need help with leveler deck
General forum
Posted on July 17, 2010, 7:47 p.m. by Adron
I've come to believe the leveler mechanic is too slow moving for most magic games, and definately for everything outside of Standard Type 2. Maybe I have the wrong impression of levelers and am playing them wrong. What do you think of this for Type 2, isn't even a viable option to play a deck like this and honestly expect to win? Any suggestions?
forgot to post the link to the deck i recently tried using.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/level-and-control/
July 17, 2010 9 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #4
Let me explain where i think your problem lies. It is much too difficult to run a deck that has all of the cards as levelers.
I think however you have mistaken the difficulties of your deck for a problem with levelers in general. It is not true that levelers are not good for decks, or that they are too slow, and generally not worth playing. This is a classic case of tossing the baby out with the bath water.
I too tried to fashion a deck built entirely on levelers at one point, and came to realize that it was just unworkable. You need some non-leveler creatures to go along with the levelers.
Levelers can play numerous roles in a given deck, and their flexibility can truly be amazing. but you have to decide what you want your levelers to be.
There are several ways to look at levelers:
Either they are excellent creatures for the cmc and very efficient for their original casting cost, but are difficult or expensive to level, meaning they are efficient creature drops for their cmc... but come out (mostly small) but have the ability to grow (albeit usually expensively), so they aren't total duds late game. (example Zulaport Enforcer you may include these in your deck and never level them at all....
Or
They are beaters / win conditions on their own, and you want to level them as fast as possible in order to win the game. (example Coralhelm Commander ). You want to level these usually as fast as possible at other creatures expenses.
Or
There are some that come out and aren't that great but get pretty darn good at just level 1 and are only worth leveling once, but not so valuable after that. (example Lord of Shatterskull Pass Typically you race to get it to level 1 and then ignore it to play other creatures.
These are three very different kind of levelers, and three very different uses to which they should be put. to that end you need to figure out what niche you want your levelers to fill, and then compliment them with normal cards in the rest of your deck.
levelers of all types are valuable however, as there are often times in a game, when you don't really have any other play, and with out them you would be stuck doing nothing.... instead you now have the opportunity to be pumping up your creatures and making them much better than non-levelers would be. I almost wonder if the flexibility that they provide isn't something that all decks should take advantage of... but that is a discussion for another day.
July 18, 2010 2:49 a.m.
KrazyCaley says... #5
Every leveller has to be a threat to win you the game, otherwise it's tough to get value out of them. If your leveller isn't an absolute GAME ender when it's levelled all the way up, then you shouldn't have it in there.
July 18, 2010 8:41 a.m.
Not looking at this as a tourny deck, but should be a strong casual deck. Haven't even bothered yet with alternate lands...dual/sac. Let alone drawing mechanics like Ponder
.
Anyway here's my quick level deck: BW Leveling.
July 18, 2010 2:22 p.m.
Deckbuilder, thanks for the strong advise, I'll incorporate this into my next deck as I ween off the leveler deck idea. I just started again after a 14 year break and think I was just sucked in by the leveler mechanic.
July 18, 2010 2:55 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #8
@ Adron - i don't want you to think i am anti leverl.. cuz i am not .. i love the mechanic... and think it provides a lot of options in a deck. In fact i hope they make it evergreen at some point. You just have to decide how you want to use your levelers and how they fit in with the rest of your deck, and not rely solely on them.
I disagree with you. your description covers in my opinion only a single category of levelers, and ignores the other two categories completely, both of the other options are completely valid reasons to include them in decks even if they aren't gonna end the game. They need only to provide an advantage to you that otherwise would not be present in your deck. on the other hand all levelers at max level are pretty strong... so maybe we are talking about different things with regards to game enders.
July 19, 2010 12:21 a.m.
Levelers are just meant to be fun inside of limited... so 3 pack rise drafts or rise sealed... The only ones that can make it out of this are Student of Warfare and maybe Kargan Dragonlord ... there might be one or two I'm leaving out but I agree that most aren't strong enough for standard play.
July 19, 2010 2:01 a.m.
KrazyCaley says... #10
Perhaps "game-enders" is a bit strong, but it at least has to be an effect so powerful that your opponent can't possibly ignore it.
July 19, 2010 11:01 p.m.
I honestly don't think they're viable; they seem like a poor man's allies, and even allies have a hard time.
Student of Warfare is good because it immediately turns into something useful without a big investment, and because it costs one, even if someone nukes it, they wasted good removal. I wouldn't run an entire leveller deck though, I would just add her to something like Naya or a deck that nabs things via Ranger of Eos . I've been unhappy with a lot of my own decks lately and not winning with them, so I decided to bite the bullet and chuck them rather than get so attached. Pet decks can be fun for a while but don't let them control you!
July 20, 2010 1:24 a.m.
personally i love Knight of Cliffhaven i had my leveller deck at the national qualifiers it did well. And it was the only one of its kind there. Venerated Ascension
July 20, 2010 5:51 p.m.
Perhaps you guys should take a look at 1UP!
Basically, I've found levelers way too damned slow without blue. Forget levelers (well decks with more levelers as the focus, not as a splash of flavor) if you don't really run blue.
The focus I put on the deck is using unsummon to unsummon teachers and replay them for the guys that need lots of levels to get them BEAFY! (Not just beefy... beafy!) I could probably do with some card:Champion's Drake in there. That deck is still highly under construction, but, cards like kabria-vindicator can be great in numerous decks.
Levelers are extremely rediculous in Limited because the cheap ones are FAST in comparison to the Eldrazi spawning stuff. Umbras are going to be key. The deck I have is based off of two weeks worth of draft (Pre-release and release) of running levelers and placing 2nd both weeks. (See: ROE Pre-Release Levelers)
Looking at your deck, you may want to try the Unsummon trick to get you levels faster. IMO, it's cheaper when you have two or more levelers out to just unsummon the bastard and re-play him. I've almost considered dropping training grounds out because of this trick.
Eel Umbra will be big in level-up decks. It will save a hard-hitting creature from most anything except sacrifice... which will be nice for your Zulaport Enforcer in case someone decides to try to nuke him since they can't block him. Other than that, you got most of your other staples. With the lovely lighthouse fellow, it's obviously going to be all levels, all the time. 7 levels is a lot to earn, especially with a cost that can't be reduced by Training Grounds . So it's either have a lot of blue mana at hand, or play him as fast as possible, latch an eel umbra on him if he comes into danger, and play your other levelers while you unsummon your venerated teachers to get them all 3 or 4+.
I know, I'm long-winded. Just slap me if I make no sense. :P
July 27, 2010 8:10 a.m.
I agree with Anja about the blue...take a look at level-up-deck
July 30, 2010 8:39 p.m.
WiseHeart65 says... #16
level up gets alot easier with 3x or 4x Training Grounds and 4xVenerated Teacher .
August 2, 2010 10:30 a.m.
nammertime says... #17
In a dedicated level up deck, if you're going to play Training Grounds , then cards like Student of Warfare and Coralhelm Commander get nothing out of it. Less synergy = less efficiency overall.
I'd say the stronger choice for any deck with lots of levelers is Venerated Teacher , as you can work a bounce mechanic into your game, either returning your opponent's creatures to their hand, returning your own Venerated teacher to your hand, or even both with AEther Tradewinds .
As for the level up mechanic itself, Deckbuilder pretty much nailed it. If you're going to use these guys for pure efficiency, then don't make a deck full of them. They are good at either assisting or, in the case of game enders, ending the game.
August 3, 2010 2:47 p.m.
Anja and nammertime, I didn't think about the unsummon/aether trick with Venerated. I think it would definitely be more efficient with that mechanic and removing the training grounds.
In the end, I think I may scrap this deck as we move into M11. I;ve modified it a couple times and don't seem to be having much luck with it in standard.
I may try the return to hand mechanic one last time to see its effect.
August 3, 2010 9:41 p.m.
nammertime says... #19
I'd try AEther Adept , seeing as how good card:Man-o'-War was back in the day.
That way, you don't necessarily have to have a Venerated Teacher on the board but still be able to slow down your opponent AND get a creature out of it.
August 3, 2010 11:48 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #20
Hey all, I am looking for a Force of Will , Savannah , Underground Sea , 4 Bloodbraid Elf , 4 Thoughtseize , 4 Abrupt Decay and others.
Adron says... #2
is this even a viable option
July 17, 2010 7:48 p.m.