The Game, The Etiquette, The Fun, and you
General forum
Posted on March 9, 2016, 10:33 a.m. by Titilanious
Hello all, I would like to make a few points or observations that I would like to hear opinions on. So a little bit of back story here now, I have always been the nice laid back guy, never a stickler for rules or whatever, I enjoy helping new players and conversing with my opponent to make friends with them rather than just be opponents. Now on to my points.
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Calling judges and being nice
Now I know if someone is blatantly cheating you should call a judge and begin the process of explanation. But on the other had if someone makes a simple mistake of; accidentally drawing more than one card because of sleeves sticking, forgetting a trigger half a phase late (provided it doesnt ruin the game state, forgetting to untap before draw, or even making it to the table a little bit late because they couldnt find their name. Obviously this is fine in a noncompetitive environment (i.e. Tabletop) but sometimes in a tournament I feel that it is just kind of dickish to call a judge over something so trivial. People will say that "oh do whatever it takes to win" but at what cost, you aren't really beating someone you are just winning on a technicality or something that could just be because someone is a tad bit nervous. So in sake of good sportsmanship I usually let things like this slide. Now with most things that way you usually have to use your judgement on it, because there are some people that would make thing look like an accident just to get a little edge but overall its generally just a mistake.
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Cutting and not cutting
This one is pretty simple, if you do not believe that the person is cheating or stacking their deck in any way, there is absolutely no point to cut them. You could give them a good draw or a bad draw either way.
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Playing Etiquette
As I have said I really enjoy the people aspect of playing the game, if you sit there with headphones in, just make subtle gestures and overall dont make an effort to meet the person you are playing against I feel as though that you are not getting the full enjoyment out of the game. I truly do not understand when people look at your opponents as enemies all the time, for one its exhausting and unnecessary, they already share a common interest with you and you are possibly losing out on meeting a new friend. I used to know every person that would come into my local game shop and they knew me and Ill tell you it was a good feeling, and it actually was kind of sad when I had to move for work.
In conclusion these are just a few things that I have been thinking about and I know there are different ways of thinking of them (thats why I am posting). I would love to hear some of your thoughts and opinions.
ducttapedeckbox says... #3
This is from an FNM standpoint.
I only call a judge if we cannot reach an agreement on a play or have a question of what happens. If they try to take a big play back or do anything that would have affected what I've done, I call a judge. If they make an illegal play and don't realize it from a subtle hint, I call a judge.
Cutting is a courtesy and is required at higher level events. There's no reason not to cut. I find it lazy of an opponent to not cut, unless it's multiple instances in a single turn (fetches, tutors, etc.)
Ignore the people that aren't polite or respectful. Not worth your time. There's no rule that they have to be nice.
March 9, 2016 10:43 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
I don't think you really understand (or appropriately acknowledge, at least) why some of these rules exist.
Calling a judge is a safe way to help identify and apply the correct remediation process for an incorrect action. Also, this game is based on rules. Following the rules is not some cop-out means of winning. The notion of winning on a technicality seems misinformed. The game is based on winning according to the technical specifications of the rules. In a tournament environment where advancement is based on correct play, you should absolutely call a judge to ensure the integrity of the tournament structure.
Also, cutting is for mutual assurance that the deck is randomized. Trust is a nonfactor unless you're in a casual environment and wouldn't really care one way or the other. It's not an insult to someone to cut their deck.
March 9, 2016 10:43 a.m.
First of all, if these are first hand experiences you're going off of, then your LGS sounds like it's got a noticeable population of douchebags.
I'm assuming all of this is at your LGS at the Regular REL
In response to 1: Forgetting triggers and to untap are common mistakes that most people will casually let slide as long as it doesn't disrupt the game state, as you said, and honestly as it should be. Whether or not you're late to a table is generally at the discretion of the tournament organizer. I personally don't start the clock at any of our nightly tournaments until everybody is seated with their opponent. Drawing extra cards can be a bit more of an issue and should be handled appropriately if brought up. If the players decide to let it go than the judge or organizer wouldn't know any better and whatever. That's cool. I as a judge/organizer don't care at Regular REL. But generally there are fairly simple and easy fixes for those mistakes when addressed and everybody is usually okay with it, because they simply are trying to better themselves as players for the next GP or PPTQ or IQ or Open.
If you ever regard these same things at a higher REL (such as Competitive or Professional), the actions required and in correlation my answers to them all would be much different. That's where things really matter.
Cutting and Not Cutting: This is, at Regular REL a matter of complete personal discretion. Some players prefer their decks are cut and make a point of it. Sure that's fine. It isn't required. Not at the Regular level however. In all other RELs, cutting your opponent's deck is a necessity and a requirement. Nobody can be forced to cut somebody's deck if they don't want to at a Regular REL. I personally don't cut people's decks at my LGS on the few occasions I get to play. I trust everybody there. I always present of course. If they ask me to cut then I will. They're either trying to keep a habit or simply want it cut. Its an extra 30 seconds of my life. Whatever.
Last one: As for the last one I can only tell you, that' just comes down to people. Not Magic. If they want to be unsociable assholes that's their prerogative.
Consider this in all your thoughts though: As somebody who works at an LGS I see a lot of different types of players on a regular basis. You have your uber competitive Spikes who come to win. If they aren't winning, they aren't having fun, and don't want to be there. They view it as wasted time generally. These are the people who leave after losing the first two rounds and don't even stop moving between getting up from their table, stopping by to tell me they're dropping, and walking out the door. There are other player types out there but these are the ones I feel like you're highlighting, intentionally or otherwise.
Consider things from their view. Not all Spikes are asshats. Some are, but most are generally kind people who just pride themselves and performing at their best. So if they want to be on their best and treat a casual or regular REL game like it's the real deal, and you want to have a good experience, I would suggest mirroring them. If you're intent on enjoying your game then do a bit of role play for their sake and get super into it. Give them the competitive experience they're craving and you might find your interactions during or after the game to be a bit more enjoyable.
Just a thought.
March 9, 2016 10:55 a.m.
Titilanious says... #6
Epochalyptik no i understand why the rules exist, i just think of some of the "accidental" things that happen seem a bit unnecessary to bother a judge with. I am not saying at all if you suspect cheating not to call a judge, rather, just bringing to light points and observations I have made. Also i have never said that it is an insult to cut someones deck, just unnecessary at times.
ducttapedeckbox as long as you tap the deck to acknowledge that it was shuffled sufficiently there is no rule saying that you must cut.
Thank you all for your input :)
March 9, 2016 10:57 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #7
I'm not at a GP to make friends, i'm there to play my best, get as many wins as possible, and try to cash out. While I can agree to everything here at an LGS level, you're pretty much 100% wrong when it comes to a big tournament. If this is competitive rules level, you need to get your butt to your table on time, i'm not waiting for you. I'm going to shuffle your deck myself because I can't trust that you haven't stacked it somehow. If you mess up at all, I'll call a judge because we are meant to play the game correctly at this level. Being nice and sociable is great, but at this level when there's real money on the line, being friends with your opponent is just a distraction. If i'm like 3-3, sure, we can be friends and pal around, but if you're even a minute late to our table one feature match in round 9, you get no friendly treatment.
Just trying to play devil's advocate here and offer the viewpoint of the other side of the table.
March 9, 2016 11:01 a.m.
Titilanious says... #8
very well thought out comment, and a lot of this is from my LGS but a lot is also higher level play GPs, IQs, Opens and such.Also these are just my opinions I know other people think differently.
DevoidMage Thank you, playing the devils advocate is always appreciated to me
Thank you for you input.
March 9, 2016 11:02 a.m. Edited.
Servo_Token says... #9
Also, in regards to the "There's no rule saying you must cut" comment:
3.9 Card ShufflingDecks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck. Pile shuffling alone is not sufficiently random.Once the deck is randomized, it must be presented to an opponent. By this action, players state that their decks are legal and randomized. The opponent may then shuffle it additionally. Cards and sleeves must not be in danger of being damaged during this process. If the opponent does not believe the player made a reasonable effort to randomize his or her deck, the opponent must notify a judge. Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judges discretion.
If a player has had the opportunity to see any of the card faces of the deck being shuffled, the deck is no longer considered randomized and must be randomized again.
At Competitive and Professional REL tournaments, players are required to shuffle their opponents decks after their owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular REL tournaments as well.
March 9, 2016 11:05 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #10
DevoidMage if I wasn't as well-versed in competitive REL events as I am, I would swear you sound exactly like the "MTG douchebags" that everyone else is saying are the cancer of the community. behavior like what you're describing is absolutely ok in competitive settings, but I don't think people who play solely on a casual level can understand that.
March 9, 2016 11:05 a.m.
Titilanious says... #11
Lets keep it friendly haha.
Also DevoidMage a few things, first of all being friends with your opponent is not necessarily a distraction, I never said anywhere I was not trying to win, you can be competitors and friendly at the same time, just because I am being nice does not mean I can't or wont try and wipe the floor with my opponent. Secondly yes at higher level play it is required to shuffle the opponents deck, but it is still unnecessary as long as it is not assumed that they are cheating, especially at a higher level due to the fact of judges watching so closely.
Also it is fine to have a different opinion then someone it is just a discussion.
March 9, 2016 11:34 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
I would like to point out something specific about the tournament rules on shuffling that DevoidMage quoted. You are required to fully shuffle your opponent's deck when they present it at competitive and higher REL, not just cut.
I also don't think that calling a judge is an inherently unfriendly way to handle a situation. Judges are there to function as impartial observers and mediators. Sometimes the remediation for an issue includes game loss, match loss, or DQ. Most of the time it doesn't. Most of the things you described result in low level remediation.
March 9, 2016 11:45 a.m.
I think part of the issue here, and something DevoidMage was trying to resemble, is the culture at a competitive REL is so damn backhanded. There are plenty of people looking to undermine you in any way possible so that they can cut ahead. They would rather make it to victory on the back of your mistakes then the back of their own hard fought victories so that they can be noticed as part of the Top 8 or winning the whole damn thing.
People will smile at your face and talk with you a lot, not because they're purely interested, but because they're actively trying to mess you up or make you lose focus.
People will be super sticklers for the rules or be just straight rude to you.
It's the kind of negative social interaction that comes as a result of people who are far too competitive that has created the less than pleasant "silent game" experiences. Where people sit there, barely communicate outside of necessity, and play the game. If you talk, you open yourself up to risks in the game. So it's better just to shut up and focus.
Some people and you yourself might find it as unpleasant, but they're probably some of the most pleasant people at a Competitive or Professional tournament exactly because they won't go into conversation with you.
Again everything comes from a perspective. I know plenty of very skilled players at my LGS. They are awesome and funny people and very forgiving when it comes to slip ups in game and fun to talk to.
They're pretty stone faced in a competitive setting however. Not because they want to be. But because they need to be.
March 9, 2016 11:48 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #14
I don't talk at all when I'm at a competitive REL event higher than an FNM. Though that's mostly because the people who attend most of the high REL events at my LGS are stuck-up pricks whom I wouldn't even interact with outside of a Magic game, much less within one. If I know someone at the event who's a sociable, nice person, then I'll talk with them between rounds or on smoke breaks, and of course I'll interact with someone if I'm trading with them, but that's as far as I'll go.
March 9, 2016 11:53 a.m.
Titilanious says... #15
TMBRLZ Again very well thought out and well put comment, but i would like to emphasize that i am in no way saying that it is a bad thing to be competitive and silent, I understand this completely (D1 athlete). And everyone has there own way of "getting in the zone" and none of the them are wrong, just different.
March 9, 2016 noon
Didn't that rule say "may shuffle" ? That still doesn't sound like you are forced to shuffle your opponents deck, just that they have to give you the opportunity, and I think cutting is technically a form of shuffling. I'm only asking these because I want to know for sure.
March 9, 2016 3:42 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
In Competitive REL or above, you must actually shuffle your opponent's deck.
At FNM (Regular REL), cutting is fine.
March 9, 2016 3:46 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #18
Last paragraph:
At Competitive and Professional REL tournaments, players are required to shuffle their opponents decks after their owners have shuffled them. The Head Judge can require this at Regular REL tournaments as well.
That is why everyone making the point of required shuffling is saying something along the lines of "At competitive REL and higher"
March 9, 2016 3:46 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
@Titilanious: I should have worded my response slightly differently. The point is that proper tournament play, and the integrity of the tournament itself, requires that you call a judge to resolve any game-related issue, regardless of whether you personally feel the issue to be important or not. The judges are there to be called upon as a resource, and to ensure that the tournament runs smoothly and properly.
March 9, 2016 3:49 p.m.
Titilanious says... #20
Yes i understand this, if an agreement can not be made between both players a judge should be called. And i should have worded the post differently as well I was more focused on the notion of players that actively try to catch their opponent or even try and trick them into getting a slight advantage.
March 9, 2016 3:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
Even then, agreement between players is not necessarily a legitimate solution. In casual games, it's fine. However, event gameplay is governed by the rules. And that includes both the rules for handling incorrect actions and the rules of the game mechanics themselves. Although players are expected to know how to play the game, they are not recognized as authorities for resolving disputes and should not attempt to find their own solutions during event gameplay. Ever.
Even at the FNM level, you should technically call a judge to help explain the situation, or explain beforehand and have a judge verify for you. It's just that most people are, in practice, lax about this rule.
March 9, 2016 4:06 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #22
It's not even that "if an agreement can not be made". The correct recourse when playing in a tournament is to call the judge. Judges are not there to punish players. The purpose of the judge is so that the event runs smoothly and fairly for all players involved. You may be tempted to just have them put their card back if they accidently drew too many, but who is to say that this is the first time that the person has done this that day. For all you know they have been doing it every match and playing it off as nerves to try to get some incremental advantage. If each time a judge is discretely called to remedy it and the players make no big deal then they can keep track of habitual offenders.
This is not to say that it is ok to melodramatically call the judge and then mumble things like "cheater", "I can't believe this", or "really guy, really" under your breath to try to get them off balance. You should calmly and respectfully follow all rules of the game and the tournament.
March 9, 2016 4:13 p.m.
I think we're getting a little nitpicky on words here, no offense to any of you here. Titilanious has pointed out he's fully aware of the competitive environment and the way the rule system works.
I believe he just was wording his point loosely when he said "agreement can not be made."
Again his reason for bringing this up was to discuss the cultural issue at hand of underhanded players who are using the support system, as Epochalyptik put it, that is a judge and the MTG rules, as a form of abuse against other players.
His whole post could be inherently summed into the following: People need to stop being asshats and calm down when it comes to rules infractions. That's not to say take them any less lightly. If there's an infraction then it should be addressed appropriately based on the REL at hand and there should be a judge if there's a discrepancy about the proper course of action. However, people shouldn't use it as a weapon, as it has become in the competitive and professional levels of play.
March 9, 2016 4:20 p.m.
Titilanious says... #24
I by all accounts agree with following the rules, but sometimes some things just seem that they are more-or-less overlook-able really or not worth the judges time.
March 9, 2016 4:45 p.m.
Most judges will tell you they would rather you call them for everything than nothing. Any question you have is worth a judges time. Its why they are there!
Drawing additional cards "accidentally" has been proven to be a method most cheaters have used at one time or another. Essentially lets them scry for free. So any time someone draws extra cards they have an unfair advantage and should be punished. This is why you see most pro's take the top card of their deck place it on the table then pick it up. They want to be doubly sure that they only have 1 card.
If your opponent is offended by you calling for a judge chances are they are doing something they don't want a judge to call.
March 9, 2016 5:40 p.m.
What vomdur said on "accidental" draws. I can't begin to count the number of times I've drawn cards in X years of magic, with all kinds of sleeves. And in that entire time I think I've had exactly zero mis-draws. Seriously, I trust someone who can't draw correctly about as far as I can throw them.
On being nice, I like establishing up-front that I will not ask for nor offer minor take-backs, etc. I'm trying to raise my personal level of play (essentially moving from "kitchen table" Standard to FNM-level Standard), and part of the process is me trying to be completely hard-nosed with myself about playing "by the book". I think explaining that to opponents has been good for building trust, both ways.
March 9, 2016 6:04 p.m.
Ah, I misunderstood. I thought the bit at the bottom was conjecture and not part of the rules text. Thank you all for clearing that up.
canterlotguardian says... #2
I'll address them one at a time.
1) I don't call judge unless there's a rules discrepancy. Other than that, I prefer to let the players work it out.
2) Every time an opponent shuffles their deck, I cut. I don't want that opponent to be the one person I've faced that cheats their winning card to the top.
3) Etiquette is a bit of a grey area for Magic. Something that one person may not have a problem with, could make someone else tilt. You really can't tell what someone's triggers are (and gods I hate to use that word, but in this case it's appropriate) until you hit them, and that's really the worst part about it all.
March 9, 2016 10:41 a.m.