The Game, The Etiquette, The Fun, and you #2
General forum
Posted on March 10, 2016, 10:29 a.m. by Titilanious
Well I have decided to turn this into a little series of civil discussion and opinions. I want to say that once again these are just some thoughts of a simple Johnny that has played magic for a long time and I am not here to irritate anyone, I am just here to perk some thought. So without further a due lets get in to it.
Banning of cards and ousting deck lists
So this one always seems to come up, is it really necessary to make bans for competitive play, and how often should it take place? In my opinion it is yes, but not for the reason you may think. I think it is necessary to ban out some cards there for shutting down some deck lists that are too popular (I misspoke here popular is not the word to use. its more like overplayed) (I will address this soon) as to not make a format stale. While there are some cards that are way too overpowered for a format (Hypergenesis, Umezawa's Jitte, Skullclamp) there are cards that are just seen too much (Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod and now recently some of the eldrazi) so for the sake of keeping things fresh it seems needed to shuffle things up a bit. (referring to modern really)
Deck lists, home brewing, and net-decking
Now this is a topic that seems to cause some debates between the 3 types of players.
Spike- looks for the best deck and plays it
Johnny- will look to make his very own deck the best he can in a creative way
Timmy- is looking at high mana cost cards wondering how he can trounce an opponent with them
So to some degree I think that the internet and pro-tour have really hindered the creativeness of decks as of late due to the fact that one could just go online and grab a deck list quickly and build it because a pro played it once. Now let me emphasize there is nothing wrong with this at all people tend to do what they find most enjoyable. But I would also like to point out that magic is only pay to win to a degree, there is a lot of luck and player skill that go in to matches, having a $1500 modern deck will not ensure victory over a $100-dollar fringe build if you do not know how to pilot it. So over all saying just because a pro won with it does not mean you are going to.(This seemed like it ended wrong so i am adding to it) Now on the flip side if you think that your fringe deck will beat the pants off of a t1 or top deck all the time or even most of the time that is not true either. There are literal tons of effort put into researching a meta at a LGS or higher that are needed to be a top player at them
Flipping cards and nervous ticks of players
So everyone has something they do when they are waiting for an opponent to make a play whether it be flipping your cards in your hand, spinning one card around, or even just sitting in silence. Now I was just wondering if an opponent ever audibly flips there cards constantly is it irritating to some people and is it polite to ask them to stop or just ignore it, most of the time people do it subconsciously and dont even notice they do it.
Well that is it for this time, if you have any more ideas or thoughts that you would like my thoughts on let me know and I will post them. As always thank you for reading and I look forward to your thoughts.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #3
Spike- looks for the best deck and plays it
Johnny- will look to make his very own deck the best he can
Timmy- is off in the corner looking at high mana cost cards
you have these so wrong. seriously, these ddon't even fit the usual stereotypes.
timmy makes his own decks that use cards that hit hard and are personally loved to him.
johnny is finding all the combos and using them.
and spike is pretty much what you said.
March 10, 2016 10:56 a.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #4
and let's address another thing:
you propose that we make bans to popular cards. Only for the reason of being popular.
seriously, wtf? these cards are popular b/c they're played a lot and have homes in decks. If you ban this stuff, people have to completely remake decks! it shifts the power and financial balance significantly! sure, it would lead to a meta of different decks, but they'd be different b/c they would have literally no way to be the same anymore. People would become forced to play odd cards that wouldn't even come close to making cuts normally, all because they now aren't allowed to use cards that other people are using.
The main thing here is that a lot of cards are played in a lot of decks. this doesn't mean we should ban them. They're there b/c they're powerful in those decks.
March 10, 2016 11:03 a.m.
Titilanious says... #6
DERPLINGSUPREME I never said that we should ban cards for being popular at all... saying that we would be banning Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt. And a decision is usually made to ban something when a deck takes up too much of the playing field.
I also stated that it was to keep a format fresh as to not see the same decks time and time again
March 10, 2016 11:09 a.m. Edited.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #7
@Titilanious dude, I know the player types.
those do NOT match up with what you wrote, especially b/c it feels liek you're chastising timmy.
"there are cards that are just seen too much (Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod and now recently some of the eldrazi) so for the sake of keeping things fresh it seems needed to shuffle things up a bit." in reference to you Banning of cards and ousting deck lists paragraph.
If there was any other way to understand that sentence from that paragraph name, I dont know what it is.
March 10, 2016 11:15 a.m.
Titilanious says... #8
"A Timmy is characterized by his tendency to use big creatures and cast big spells."
"A Johnny is characterized by his tendency to build complex and creative decks."
"A Spike is characterized by his competitive nature and he plays primarily to prove how good he is."
yes the words i used are not exact but the convey the point. Also they was someone understands or reads into something is their own one persons view may not mirror another's
also Popularity=/="seen too much" these are 2 very different principals
also the title is referring to the fact that when wizards does ban a card it does sometimes oust a deck.
lastly, I do state that i am not here to offend anyone just here to perk thought, i apologize if you thought otherwise.
March 10, 2016 11:22 a.m. Edited.
Titilanious says... #9
Also the way someone understands or reads into something is their own, one persons view may not mirror another's.
Mistype i apologize
March 10, 2016 11:31 a.m.
Titilanious says... #10
@rorofat that is a very good point i did not think of that. but on the contrary it is also possible for someone not to be able to function when something is happening around them, or make it much more difficult to concentrate.
Thank you for your input
March 10, 2016 11:41 a.m.
GoldenDemon says... #11
There's a lot more to being a Timmy than "using big creatures and casting big spells," dude.
March 10, 2016 11:49 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #12
So the banning of popular cards deal:
Bannings happen for a few reasons. The first is that something is inherently broken about the card / cards - Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Hypergenesis, Treasure Cruise. These cards are banned because they are too good for the format, and this was addressed already.
The second reason a card is banned is not because the card is too good, but WotC disagrees with the kind of games that the card plays. Sensei's Divining Top made games way too long. Deathrite Shaman was a splashable 1 mana planeswalker that gave decks that didn't necessarily need it access to powerful mana ramp. Mental Misstep lets red and green play counterspells, which they are never ever supposed to do.
And the third reason that a card gets banned is because it creates or enables a format that is either warped around itself. Think Eldrazi, Old Affinity with the artifact lands, Wild Nacatl back in the day. WotC doesn't want one thing to dominate the format for too long a time period.
Finally, cards get banned to "Shake up the format". Most recently, Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin. This seems to be a yearly banning that happens because why not. They basically take the most popular deck and get rid of it because they claim that it helps keep the format fresh. To an extent, it does, but this is also the only banning that people disagree with, understandably because they are basically getting their funds stolen from them with how the markets on these cards crash immediately.
So that's why cards get banned. I completely agree with all of these procedures whether I like them or not (Rip in peace Birthing pod), and I don't think that they need to change or initiate any sort of new banning procedure.
In regards to the net decking bit - This post seems very Anti-spike biased, which is reasonable because typically those that aren't spikes dislike spikes, often because "They play too rough". However, My stance on this is to just let people be themselves without having to stick a label on them and without judgement. You don't need to call it a mistake when someone purchases a tier one deck and doesn't know how to pilot it right out of the gate. Did you turn 16, go out and buy a car and just start driving on the freeway? Of course not, you have to learn what you're doing first, same applies here. I really don't like the whole "Magic is a strict pay to win game" mentality, because it certainly isn't. Anyone can win a game of magic with any deck given the proper circumstances. However, it is also a game where the ROI scales with how much is put into it. If you have a tier one $2000 deck, and I have a $500 tier 3 deck, and we both put in the same amount of effort into learning how to play them correctly, chances are that you will beat me more often because you are using the more commonly accepted "better strategy". That doesn't mean that I won't get any wins, it just means that your chances of winning are slightly higher than mine. But anyway, I don't really think that anyone has any right to cast any judgement on anyone else's financial decisions within the game because after all it is just that, a game. You want to be hyper budget player 10,000, fine go do that. If I want to spend half of every paycheck on cards because I can afford to do that, please just let me do that too.
Card flicking and such:
If you find card flicking annoying, that sucks because it's just a part of the game. People shuffle their hands to hide information, and Magic is a game unlike chess where one player's turn can take upwards of two minutes. While I'm over here F6'd, I sometimes need to be doing something to keep my brain occupied. I can't just go hyperactive thought for my turn, then go brain dead while you figure out how to tap your lands. So while you're deciding whether to attack with your Goblin Guide or not, I'm going to keep my high brain activity rolling and focus partially on moving my cards around.
I've got to say that I do like these deeper thought posts, but I feel like there needs to be a bit more put into the initial OP. The prompts should be better researched and worded clearly so that there aren't any bouts of random internet screaming as we've seen in the early comments of this one. But do keep these coming every so often! Wouldn't mind if this even turned into an article series someday.
March 10, 2016 11:50 a.m.
Titilanious says... #13
@GoldenDemon yes I understand that, i was just using a common stereotype to convey a difference in thought between the archetypes.
March 10, 2016 11:51 a.m.
Titilanious says... #14
@DevoidMage thank you, i really appreciate the thought and effort you put into commenting.
I do apologize for making it a bit biased, in the future i will try and make it less so. As well as do a bit more explaining on some of my points. But i also like to say that there is absolutely no problem with any other avenues of thought, i encourage them. I love the interaction between players talking about topics in the game.
March 10, 2016 11:59 a.m.
"The prompts should be better researched and worded clearly so that there aren't any bouts of random internet screaming as we've seen in the early comments of this one."
To be fair it would help if people could more clearly read his original post in it's entirety and understand the reasons for the post being analytical, and reserve their own emotional investment. Unfortunately we're on the internet where there are lots of words and lots of people who can't actually read, much less sympathize with the viewpoint from which they're reading.
I digress.
Banning and such:
I've agreed with Wizard's overall mentality when it comes to banning cards up until the banning of Splinter Twin. That was, far and wide, considered a mistake, by people on both sides of the field. I agree that cards should be banned because they allow for broken shenanigans. (i.e. Summer Bloom, Eye of Ugin, Skullclamp) I also agree cards should be banned to diversify the format. (i.e. Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin). However the fatal error made with Splinter Twin was WHEN they banned it. They attested it to it's popularity in the format, which it was popular. "Was" - as in, way before they banned it. If you very simply follow the Top 8 lists leading up to the ban of Twin you will see Twin stretched about as far and wide as any other major deck. Affinity had an arguably greater presence at the time of Twin's ban. Twin's ban came months after it should have been relevant. I remember when Twin was a majority of the format and I remember bitching about it. It wasn't anywhere near the time they banned it.
I agree they should ban cards for their presence. However, if they're going to ban cards for their presence, it should be in a relevant time frame. Not half a year later.
Player types and such:
First of all, to 90% of you in this thread, chill. the hell. out. Mother of God. He wasn't attacking player types. He may have overgeneralized Timmy. Oh well, you knew what he meant. Put your damn flags down and just focus on the point of the thread. And to DevoidMage - I'm curious as to where you saw Titilanious pass any judgment on Spikes or ever classify buying a T1 deck you don't know as a "mistake." He analyzed, from his point of view. I saw in no way how he attacked anybody or anything. He may have been a little rough on his examples here and there, but he wasn't going for a full run through of the topic. He's just trying to start conversation. So to all of you who are getting your damn emotions strung out because of this post - chill out. (Note I don't count you in there DevoidMage, I actually respect the thought you put into your post).
I'll sum this up nicely now.
I'm a Johnny. I despise the meta and am saddened by the people who live off of it. But I understand their aims as a Spike. I see all three player types at my shop and have come to understand each one more intricately. I do however netdeck, as I have discovered I am an awful deck builder 80% of the time. So I look for awesome deck ideas that receive no attention and hold a competitive advantage against the meta. I like to show the big boys that they aren't the only ones who know how to fight. It also comes down to finding value in all the other thousands of card that exist in MTG. Not just the 10% used. I don't see a problem with netdecking. I do see a problem with refusing to flex your creativity and only playing the winning decks just so you yourself can win. I respect the Spike who find room to innovate, if even in the slightest, these decks to better suit their play style and goals, however.
I'm a lot more sympathetic to Spikes than I used to be. I still hate the meta though. I was yelling Siege Rhino needed banned from all formats six months ago, if that tells you anything.
Flipping and such:
Doesn't really bother me. I thought it was funny at first. Now I engage in my own form of it as well. It helps people think. If you're focused on the game you can't really hear or notice it. You don't notice much anything outside of the game honestly. Makes me question why I have so many cool playmats if I'm never actually actively appreciating them. You don't see them past the cards.
TLDR:
BANNING: Ban cards for their brokenness and their abuse of use. Just do it in a timely and appropriate manner. Splinter Twin ban came long after it should have and was no longer relevant at the time it was banned.
PLAYER TYPES: Everybody chill out. Quit getting offended. Learn to read. I'm a Johnny. Net-Decking is fine. Lack of creativity isn't.
FLIPPING: Meh.
March 10, 2016 12:27 p.m.
Titilanious says... #16
@TMBRLZ thank you for your post your input was very insightful. but I must say that i do agree with DevoidMage to a point, I am not a wonderful writer, and i was being a tad bit bias towards Johnnys.
Also Edit i fixed the the post a little bit to try and be less bias and more MPC (magic politically correct)
March 10, 2016 1:10 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #17
I was mainly looking at the attitude given in this line...
"But I would also like to point out that magic is only pay to win to a degree, there is a lot of luck and player skill that go in to matches, having a $1500 modern deck will not ensure victory over a $100-dollar fringe build if you do not know how to pilot it. So over all saying just because a pro won with it does not mean you are going to."
when I pointed out a potential bias against spike mentality. Without going into detail here it just sounds like the spike is being chastised without any of the other personality types receiving the same sort of analysis.
March 10, 2016 1:29 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #18
FFS Aspergers is not just social awkwardness, it is not ok to equate the two. Many people are socially awkward and have varying severities of social anxiety. Not nearly as many people have high functioning autism with the associated behaviours and other difficulties associated with it. If you have been officially diagnosed I'm sorry to go off on this rant. However as the parent of a child with high functioning autism (Aspergers is no longer an official diagnosis) it irritates me to see people minimizing the symptoms into "socially awkward" and then self diagnosing.
March 10, 2016 1:51 p.m.
DevoidMage - I can see where you saw that. I suppose I read it differently. I didn't read it as much a point against Spikes as I did simply a statement about Magic.
March 10, 2016 1:55 p.m.
I am going to give a light opinion on the matter and head out. Overall, the article was good I had no issue with it bias is going to happen and people will always find issues with an article if the issues are not useful and just want to breed hate ignore it. The way you described the player types, although short, were pretty accurate honestly but this comes from someone who doesn't really identify with any of them. As far as my opinion on flicking cards people only do it because they see other people do it and its just become popular and yes it does help people think but that does not mean they need to do it. I have had times where people have asked me to stop flicking and I did to respect them even though I am an avid flicker myself. I have also had times where I am not flicking my cards and I am trying to think and they are and it starts to give me a headache so I will ask them to stop because I am uncomfortable and I see nothing wrong with that so long as I do the same for them. It is not a right to flick your cards around its a privilege to play against your opponent and you should respect them and their reasonable needs while playing.
March 10, 2016 1:59 p.m.
Titilanious says... #21
EmblemMan thank your for your comment as well as your input on the discussion. I also agree with flipping your cards that it is a mutual respect sort of think where both players respect each others wishes and act acordingly
March 10, 2016 2:51 p.m. Edited.
Servo_Token says... #22
So what happens when these two players are against one another?
"Sorry, you're at a disadvantage now because I don't like when you do your thing" vs "This thing that everyone does puts you at a disadvantage"
I feel like the person that doesn't like it needs to be the one to cope because it's borderline asking too much to tell every other person to accommodate them.
But i'm just a selesnyan communist who thinks that the actions of the whole are better for the good of the whole than changing the whole to accept the actions of one.
March 10, 2016 3:04 p.m.
Titilanious says... #23
good point as well, I think all and all it'll fall down to the individuals involved and it will come some consensus
March 10, 2016 3:19 p.m.
Join the Cult of Rakdos DevoidMage. Lord Rakdos will greet you with open jaws...
I mean arms...
Heh... hehe.... 
March 10, 2016 3:23 p.m.
DevoidMage That only works if everyone flicks their cards. What if everyone at a store wants to blow horns while theyre thinking? Is fair to you that just because everyone likes it you have to suffer? Its extreme but I think most people would agree you have a right to a safe comfortable environment as an individual while playing that doesnt mean that everyone conforms to you but at least talking about it and coming to an agreement to benefit both parties is better than "why every one does it get over it".
March 10, 2016 3:57 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #26
I think you need to scale things though and be ready to let the small things go. "Don't sweat the small stuff." Card flicking is a small thing, and to make into more than that (blowing air horns?) is a gross exaggeration. Fine, some people find it annoying, life is annoying.
I generally thought it wasn't a bad read. The player archetypes was a bit overgeneralized but didn't rub me the wrong way. Essentially spike wins, Johnny spins and Timmy plays fatties. Works for me, and as I've come full circle back to my Timmy/Johnny side I have an appreciation for this. To echo what's already been said, breathe people, this is the Internet, sometimes there are misunderstandings, giving the OP feedback is what gives them the opportunity to correct or defend their position.
Finally the bannings; I think your assessment is pretty good. I don't think any of the bans were bad. Although I was chafed by both the Pod and Twin bans, I can dig it because they do both limit the format like Stoneforge did in the past. Twin didn't do it directly, because you only need so many "when this creature etb, untap..." effects before you have excess redundancy, but it does limit what other blue cards they can print. Counterspell? Nope, too good for twin, Ponder? nope makes twin too consistent...I think you get my point.
Overall +1. I like posts that generate good discussion.
March 10, 2016 4:09 p.m.
Titilanious says... #27
Thank you guys I really enjoy the feedback on the post and your opinions on various things. If there is enough interest and ideas i will gladly keep doing this little series of posts going.
Thanks again :)
March 10, 2016 4:15 p.m.
Gidgetimer I completely agree, however I was just looking to simplify, and that was the best way I could think of to do so. Also mine is a relatively low degree, so I personally haven't felt the full effects of it, thus making it difficult to expand on.
March 10, 2016 7:24 p.m.
If I'm trying to have a think about my next play and all I can hear is someone flicking their cards, I will ask them to stop as it is distracting me.
I will ask them nicely and I expect them to act as an adult and comply with a very simple request.
I look at my playmate all the time. It's Chandra. Chandra is cool.
rorofat says... #2
This is going to be an unpopular decision, but in my opinion asking your opponent to not flip his cards is similar to asking him to not use a die to keep his life total. It's impolite and usually does not affect the game in any way. My stance on this is probably born out of me having aspergers syndrome (social awkwardness), so I get mad at anyone when they tell me to stop doing something when I couldn't function in public without doing it.
March 10, 2016 10:46 a.m.