What is Wrong With “Generically Good” Cards?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 31, 2023, 8:44 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Some players have been complaining about Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines, saying that she is too "generically good," but that is a very vague term, so I wish to discuss her, and to understand why those players have that opinion.
First, it is necessary to define what a "generically good" card is: is it a card that can be put into any deck, regardless of that deck’s strategy? If so, I believe that there are many cards that are far more problematic than is Elesh Norn.
For example, I personally believe that Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is far more problematic than is Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines, since not every deck uses ETB abilities as it strategy, but nearly every deck relies upon drawing cards. Furthermore, I believe that Archangel of Thune is also "generically good," since virtually every deck that contains white can benefit from containing that card, yet no one is complaining about that card warping any formats.
I do think that the new Elesh Norn should have cost , since her current cost is rather lenient, but I do not personally believe that she is nearly as overpowered as some players are claiming that she is; perhaps I may change my mind after I see her played in several games, but it is better to wait and see, rather than making any declarations before her card is even released.
What does everyone else say about this subject? What is wrong with "generically good" cards?
A card that is Generically Good is a card that doesn't have to do anything to be a good inclusion in a deck. New Norn isn't something I would call Generically Good because she is highly dependent, as you said, on ETB triggers.
I agree that New Sheoldred is a problem because she doesn't have to do anything to win the game, just sit there, and her cost means there's little effort to putting her into play. (That she's practically the curve topper in mono- Control in Standard isn't helping her case.)
Another card that you can call Generically good is Mishra's Foundry, from Brother's War. It's a land, and colourless, so it can fit into any deck, provides mana, and can become a creature in a pinch - and if you have multiples, they can add onto it if it's attacking. On larger formats, compounding this with Mishra's Factory can be quite viable if you don't mind having a large component to your mana pool.
Generically Good isn't bad. Just be careful that you don't wander over the line into Generic GoodStuff, which is, as noted above, cards that tend to be auto-includes when they are even remotely viable options. Just look at what pops up in 5CGoodStuff decks to see what I mean.
January 31, 2023 10:30 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #4
She is generally good as a hate piece. Almost every EDH deck has ETB triggers, and she includes noncreatures as well. You don't need to build around her doubling effect because you will get plenty of value denying your opponents, even ones that don't have an ETB centric decks.
I wouldn't call her an auto include, especially at 5 cmc. Like most things it would be meta dependent. Does every one in your group play rec sage? Then she might be worth considering.
February 1, 2023 7:05 a.m.
Sheldon the guy who is the face of the rules committy the guys who decide the rules for EDH. Is an old man yelling at clouds about the card. There's nothing wrong with generic good cards. One person with a loud voice in the community is making a mountain out of a mole hill
February 1, 2023 10:13 a.m.
FormOverFunction says... #6
As an old man who -excels- at yelling at clouds I can sympathize (at least as much as I can without reading any of the statements). Complaining about power creep has been one of the most enjoyable unproductive things to do in M:tG, at least since Ice Age, and I feel like most of this is centered on that. It sort of seems natural, like complaining about the weather... and I think it requires the same amount of attention. Not zero, but not a ton.
February 1, 2023 10:40 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #8
Grubbernaut, why do you say that? Is there any deck in which she does not work?
February 1, 2023 10:10 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #9
Well...
She's not a win condition; she requires many creatures; she incentivizes lifegain, which is a generically bad strategy; she comes down for 5 mana and does nothing (or little) while requiring multiple turns to be a payoff
When people talk about truly generically good cards (in white), things like Esper Sentinel, Swords to Plowshares, Archivist of Oghma and Ranger-Captain of Eos come to mind. In general, almost any deck with them is made better with no changes or considerations needed for them to function well; that's simply not the case with the Archangel. It requires extra build considerations for a slow payoff that doesn't offer card advantage, doesn't combo, and doesn't kill very quickly.
That's not to say it won't feel at home in a casual deck, but it is not generically good in the way the other cards are.
February 1, 2023 10:17 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #11
Grubbernaut, perhaps Archangel of Thune does not fit into every white deck, but I still think that she is an amazing creature.
disintegrasean, in what way do you disagree with Grubbernaut?
February 4, 2023 6:02 p.m.
wallisface says... #12
DemonDragonJ - disintegrasean's comment is that they agree with Grubbernaut.
I also agree with Grubbernaut, Archangel of Thune feels like a very situational card that would be terrible in a lot of different decks. Added to that she has no etb, a pretty high mana cost, and a bunch of hoops to jump through to actually gain any benefits (lifegain is a pretty garbage mechanic unless specifically built around).
February 4, 2023 6:14 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #13
wallisface, I am very sorry, I misread disintegrasean's comment, because I was hoping for at least one user to agree with me, and Archangel of Thune is amazing in both my Atraxa and Liesa decks, because she directly supports the strategies of both of those decks.
February 4, 2023 6:17 p.m.
disintegrasean says... #14
theres more value and speed in drawing, playing extra lands, or even a simple double strike to counter/over power permanents with +1 +1 counters.you would need at least 3 -5 +1 counters on your creatures to make them a threat. which automatically tells your opponents that your deck is built around life gain and +1 counters mechanic without verbally telling them. its a fun mechanic but slow and difficult to come back from a board wipe or blue counter cards which have instant %100 value the moment you play them, as oppose to having to wait for a trigger each time you want to gain that value from her. what would you do if your opponent removed your ability to gain life? now youve just paid 5 mana for a 3/4 creature that has fly and lifelink. not very threatening. most dragons base power are stronger than that by default. and there are so many cheap abilities like "tap" or "deathtouch" that can get creatures even tho they themselves dont have flying. if the mana cost was cheaper definately but for 5? i dont think so. its a fun casual game night card to play with, but i wouldnt use it in a competitive match.
February 4, 2023 7:31 p.m.
disintegrasean says... #16
the deathtouch would need flying as well but it would surely cost less than 5. battlefly swarm for example costs 1 mana flying and 1 mana to activate deathtouch.
February 4, 2023 8:12 p.m.
Black Market Connections is what I think of generically good, haven't seen people complain about that
wallisface says... #2
I assume this problem is only for EDH (which I don’t play), but my assumption is that people are worried every deck including white will also have to include Norn, the same way every deck includes Sol Ring and whatever other mandatory cards are already in the set.
The issue I guess is that the more “compulsory include” cards there are, the less diversity exists in the cardbase/meta. EDH seems to suffer from this more than any other format imo, because a singleton format just boils down to “who can get the most value from the random pile of stuff they’ve drawn” (of course strategy still exists, but i’d argue it’s less-coherent/more-chaotic than in other formats).
Now, is Norn an auto-include in any EDH deck using White? No idea, I don’t play the format. But concerns like this feel very real for a format that probably already has a dozen-ish “auto-include” cards in the 99.
January 31, 2023 9:39 p.m.