What is Your Opinion of Proxies?
General forum
Posted on Dec. 7, 2022, 8:50 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Some player use proxy cards, unofficial duplicates of official cards, either when they do not wish to spend an exorbitant sum of money on an expensive card that they desire, or when they already own such a card, but do not wish to use it in events.
Thus far, I do not have any proxy cards in any of my decks, because I have not needed them, since I do not use any cards that I cannot afford to purchase; however, I have been contemplating possibly purchasing proxies of certain cards to use in my decks, since it is very unlikely that I shall ever enter any WotC-sanctioned events, as I am not a very competitive player. I obviously would not be so cheap as to use proxies of Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, or the original moxen in my decks, but I see no problem with proxies of Sol Ring, as it is now an inexpensive and ubiquitous card, due to numerous reprints, or the original dual lands, as they are powerful, but not game-breakingly so, and are on the reserved list, so WotC shall never reprint them (at least not in tournament-legal form).
What does everyone else say about this? How do you feel about proxy cards?
Haha, I have a similar perspective tablebeast I've: "done my time" regarding playing since the 90's & not dipping into an unreasonable cardboard market. What I WILL do is pay a reasonable mark. But crusading for WoTC off some sort of misplaced brand-loyalty is against my self-interest as a consumer, especially when I am gonna be just fine for years off the product they have already put out.
Regarding market strategy for WOTC: no one there is wrong... They were a weird company in the 90's & they did start off as tablebeast said & since, they have changed their tune to more like Daveslab2022 -- economically anyway.
You alls argue 2-sides-of-a-coin when you could just acknowledge that things change.
April 22, 2023 12:34 p.m.
I love proxies so, so so much and i'm going to say something controversial here - Proxies are essential to the growth of Magic the Gathering regardless of format. Hasbro/WOTC are a bunch of greedy soulless bastards that are hellbent on trying to desperately exploit, steal, coerce as much money out of it's player base as much as possible. Removing the previously mentioned from the equation as much as possible is vital to the growth and health of the game.
April 22, 2023 3:40 p.m. Edited.
Ha, the funny thing about this thread is that most people really seem to be on the same page, but the actual applications can be so different. Proxys are a tool, and if you want to use them, and everyone in your group/tourney is okay with it, then you can really have fun with them.
Maybe it's just one of those things where there is no real answers, just situations, and proxies aren't really good or bad, they're just only sometimes appropriate.
April 22, 2023 7:47 p.m.
KablamoBoom says... #6
Used to think proxies were a form of cheating, and swore not to play with anybody who proxied. I first warmed up to them when a friend ran some for cards he owned, just, didn't want to bother re-sleeving every single game. Made sense.
I changed my tune overnight after playing someone whose turn1 was something like Underground Sea, Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith in a "casual game with jank". Bullshit. I realized then and there that it was about money. I had considered proxies cheating because it invalidated the money I had invested into cardboard. But I was never going to own a Mana Crypt, or anything over fifteen bucks for that matter. Limiting the cards I allowed myself to run, in a meta where someone could drop $1000 on turn 1...that's just pay to win. That's not the kind of Magic I want to play.
Printed off several pages of cards that same night.
April 23, 2023 3:14 p.m.
First of all, it’s 100% ethical to proxy reserved list cards. They are an out of print product so Wizards makes no money from the sale of them on the secondary market and they will never be in print again so it wont matter if proxying affects their value. I also think it’s always justified if you have the physical cards. You’re just saving time for yourself by avoiding having to dig through your decks to get your 1 copy of the card you need. In regards to cards you don’t have, the way I see it is that the money I spent opening packs full of draft chaff is making up for the money Wizards may lose by me proxying. Essentially, it should balance out as long as you’re still giving Wizards money.
April 23, 2023 4:13 p.m.
KablamoBoom, Magic should never be "pay to win". I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with in my opinion - a bad person. Magic is a game all about an exchange between players. That person obviously lied about what kind of deck they were playing with knowing full well that they were playing with cards that are relegated to the highest power levels of the game. Honestly, i'd have scooped and had to put them in their place. Magic is a gathering not someone's outlet to try and make others feel salty because they're using a precon - I can absolutely relate to your experience. Don't ever feel bad about telling a person off who is being genuinely dishonest and misleading.
April 23, 2023 7:23 p.m. Edited.
Deezy829, I think proxying needs to be done as it will drive down the demand for RL cards on the secondary market. With less demand no one can justify price increases and product will just sit which doesn't benefit stores. WOTC has been aggressively pushing for a general price increase for new products (looking at you $400 price tag on Commander Masters) and we need to disincentivize this trend.
I've said it once, and i'll say it again - we don't need a RL reprint. We need proxies. The RL is a moat protecting us from WOTC's greed. The moment we see a RL reprint product is the moment we see a $500 box of cards. Oh wait, that's already here. Uhm then we'll see a $1,000 box - oh wait Magic: 30th was a thing. I'll use my imagination here and if the product has something really desirable - $2,000 for an collector's edition and at least $1000 for a "poverty" edition. I digress - we the players don't need WOTC to play magic, just each other and proxies - which are a vital key to keeping our game accessible and affordable.
April 23, 2023 7:34 p.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #10
I’m confused how the RL is a “moat that protects us from WOTC’s greed” ?
April 23, 2023 11:59 p.m.
Whether or not the RL is good for the game or not is not really relevant to the question of whether proxies are a good thing.
Saying “I proxy because of the RL” is an on-topic conversation; solely discussing proxies and discussing only the RL (rather than the RL’s role in proxying) is not for this thread.
April 24, 2023 12:09 a.m.
Good question. Ever since roughly 2009 - 2010 the pricing new product for MtG has been on a constant and aggressive rise. The advent of the $100 Double Masters Pack of Cards, the introduction of the $200 Collector's Booster Box the list goes on in terms of examples. All the while Wizards has been constantly excusing these arbitrary price increases through the removal of the MSRP. The Reserved List will be used as yet another excuse for more arbitrary price increases for new product. Without it, we will be looking at even more egregiously priced packs of cards like Magic 30th.
I do not want to stray too far from the point of this thread. Proxies are awesome and I encourage everyone in my playgroup to use them so they can better realize their visions for their own decks. If they wanna buy the actual cardboard that's their business - all players should be able to enjoy their collections and the value and pride that comes with that. Proxies are the way to keep players playing. They ensure everyone can build what they want and play how they want while disincentivizing the manipulative and predatory tendencies of HASBRO and WOTC. This keeps our game accessible for all.
p.s. and before you think it - WOTC will continue to make money if they continue to produce good products that are worth people's hard earned money and most importantly are fairly priced. Right now, I think WOTC is going beyond testing the waters when it comes to fair pricing and desperately want to go full blown soulless corpo overlord. But if we as a community embrace proxies WOTC will change it's tune.
April 24, 2023 6:07 a.m. Edited.
squirreldoctor says... #13
As long as your deck isn't 50%+ proxies you don't own and you're not playing in anything competitive I have no issues with em. If it's a proxy of a card you own go for it.
April 24, 2023 10:24 a.m.
@ squirreldoctor, 50% is where you draw the line? That's fair. I know if some Old School/Vintage tournaments out in Germany that accept up to a certain percentage of proxies in a deck. The only difference is that the entry fee is a but higher for players who have proxies. I'm just for players playing. I understand everyone has their own opinion but at some point we just need to realize that some players are being priced out of their vision for a deck and that's not right to me.
April 24, 2023 5:05 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #15
But stealing, or at least appropriating intellectual property doesn't seem right to me either, especially not in formal tournament settings.
If you hate the paper prices, go play Vintage on MTGO, where the reserved list doesn't exist, where all the playable reserved list card prices have been tanked by Vintage Masters reprint sets, and ABUR duals are cheaper than Shocklands. Nothing standing in your way of any deck vision.
The actual Magic 30 product got a real bad rep and disappeared like a thief in the night when people weren't buying it out. I don't think it's coming back for Magic 35. Nevertheless, those were effectively proxies too, meaning WotC actually is listening to you and printing your proxies to save the health of the game for you! /s.
Proxies have plenty uses; to protect your investment, to save money, to playtest cards that don't exist yet, to play a single expensive card in multiple decks, but to actually replace the game should not be one of them. I think it sounds pretty entitled to state that you owe Wizards nothing to play this game they have been enabling and optimizing for longer than half their player base has been alive. "We don't need WotC to play Magic" sounds like "We don't need Taylor Swift to listen to Taylor Swift." Technically correct, but incredibly disrespectful to who created what you enjoy, and if you'll get your wish, you'll be stuck on what exists now, forgoing any new future material. I know I can't stop you from disrespecting that legacy by reducing them to just another greedy company to justify your theft, but reading all your comments in this thread makes me feel icky and I wanted to say something anyway.
So stop your hate campaign against the actual creators of the game you advertise playing. You say the prices have been aggressively rising since 2009-2010, but your oldest example is from 2019. That's overblowing your facts for terrifying effect. Sowing fear for WotC seems higher on your list than growth and health of the game.
The only real accomplishment to gain by replacing the totality of Magic product by proxies, is to make it unfavorable for the creator and distributor of the game to ever design new cards if no income is to be gained from it. It will stunt any growth. You don't need Collector Boosters, or $100 promo boosters to enjoy the game. All cards in there have versions that can be acquired for way cheaper, and the ONLY reason they still exist, is because WE the players, keep buying them. We like the shiny versions of the cards we play, even though they'll cost us more to purchase. On the secondary market. Completely free of WotC's influence. Your problem is with all of us at least as much as it is with WotC.
April 24, 2023 5:54 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #16
cEDH tournaments are almost exclusively proxy friendly. Trying to pass off counterfeits at a WPN event is a different issue, but if the event allows proxies, there's really nothing to take issue with. There's a decent amount of places running proxied legacy games, too, now.
April 24, 2023 6:41 p.m.
"But stealing, or at least appropriating intellectual property doesn't seem right to me either, especially not in formal tournament settings."
You casually accuse me of theft in your post. Not once have I ever advocated for the outright theft of intellectual property. You imply that I am advocating for counterfeits not proxies. I use proxies for my own personal play - and advocate for others to do the same. This is not theft. In fact, Wizards encourages players to use proxies for their own personal use. I do not appreciate being called a thief. You should apologize.
Hate is a really strong word. I don’t use it lightly – and I haven’t used it once in my previous posts. I don’t hate paper prices, in fact most of my business is with the secondary market. What I strongly dislike however is the aggressive pricing of new Products. LOTR has a $200 price tag for standard boxes and a $500 for a collector’s box. Note: this is not a Masters product. Dominaria Remasterd is going for $150 – also not a masters product (but objectively is an awesome set). As for the actual masters set – Commander Masters $312 for a Draft Booster Box, Set Booster Box is $360 and the Collector’s Box is $252 for only 4 packs of cards. Older Masters sets were generally pricy at release averaging $200- $300 a box – but – you got a whole box of cards that had all of the chase foils you wanted (in theory) – but you were not directly pay walled.
Magic 30th was a spectacular disappointment. The of CEO of Wizards of the Coast and Investors of HASBRO honestly thought people would give up Rent or a Car Payment (or 2) for a bunch of non-legal proxies that are just pieces of cardboard and ink at the end of the day. You want to talk disrespectful? They wanted to “celebrate” Magic and it's players who have just gone - or still going through a pandemic: lost loved ones, jobs, have gone through serious personal hardship – and they are supposedly celebrating these people them by slapping down a $1000 4 pack box of fake cards and sending samples to Millionaires and High Profile Clients for free advertisement. I don’t think your assessment of disrespect is accurate or sound.
What was that saying that Blake Rasmussen, Senior Communications Manager of Magic the Gathering directly told me and other players to do when looking to get new product? “Engage with the parts of Magic that you find fun and that you want to engage with.” So I took that to heart. I pass on a vast majority of new product and make only small purchases on the secondary market. I’d prefer my money go directly to an LGS than Amazon or WOTC for that matter. You claim I’m disrespecting a legacy? I’m doing what the Senior Communications Manager of Magic the Gathering directly told me to do. I’m not being sarcastic here. I’m not stealing. Not in any way. I’m just being maliciously compliant.
I’ll admit that I’m a dramatic person and at times what I want to convey can absolutely sound stupid, awful, mean-spirited or in your words – icky. That’s not my intention. I have tremendous respect for the designers of this beloved game that despite popular belief I will support financially when I deem it so. But, it’s getting harder and harder to do it when boxes are literally priced as a freaking car payment or rent. To make it worse is that the company behind it - HASBRO is constantly raising prices to their own detriment. They are hurting us - the player base as well as themselves with their focus on short sighted gains. I can't get behind it. If anyone is a thief here - it's the CEOs of Wizards and HASBRO. They're stealing our game and milking the profits out of it to feed their investors.
April 24, 2023 8 p.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #18
I feel like you’re being disingenuous. You didn’t mention a single standard-legal set. Which have held the same price tag for damn near 10 years. I could get a box of Theros for $110 in 2013, and I can still buy a box of the most recent standard legal set for the same price.
Specialty products command specialty prices. Do I agree with all of them? No. But the main perpetrator at hand was the shitty 30th anniversary boxes of fake cards for $1000.
Tested my link and for some reason it’s not working.
https://www.tcgplayer.com/product/475575/magic-the-gathering-march-of-the-machine-march-of-the-machine-draft-booster-box?country=US&utm_campaign=18143931802&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=&utm_term=&adgroupid=&gclid=CjwKCAjw0ZiiBhBKEiwA4PT9z0x4uliWdR84faFldSLYCktR2pNK76z_pTbuxIyc7WHnjdJ10hzG-BoCumgQAvD_BwE&Language=English
Here it is again.
April 24, 2023 10:13 p.m. Edited.
Wait! This is thread is about our opinion of people who use proxies & not about our opinions of proxies!!
Attempting to shame people for using them outside of subjective personal standards is a fool's errand. Fact is, is that there is little to disincentive to using them... besides judgee stuff.
We spend our money however we choose to on our hobbies. When it comes a luxury hobby if consumers are being wise consumers then they should look to their self-interests, lord knows a corporation won't. I don't do corporate bootlicking & no, I don't owe WOTC any more than I have already paid them. I guess you'll have to be prepared to feel "icky"
April 24, 2023 10:55 p.m.
For our entire exchange I have been nothing but sincere. Besides, I don’t care enough to lie to you or really anyone. I’m bad at anyway. I didn’t mention anyone who would proxy or use proxies from a standard legal set – I too wouldn’t have an issue with that. As for pricing I don’t think you understand the nature of what you’re comparing here per se. Kaladhesh came out 3 years later and sure, was priced the same – but it included the highly coveted Kaladesh Inventions. But fast forward to say – Dominaria United and all the fancy looking cards or even the Prize/Tresasures are now pay walled. I get what you’re trying to say – but these are not the same product.
Proxies help the player decide how they want to engage with Magic by giving them an additional affordable option. I’m so sorry this discussion has strayed so far from the original topic – and we can continue this privately, on another thread, or heck even on voice on the tappedout discord server. But for now, I’ll leave it at this: People who use proxies are cool. People who use counterfeits with the intention to mislead others are not. Lastly – anyone who is playing a very powerful (proxied or not) deck and misrepresents said deck to the pod only to pubstomp are scum who just want their ego stroked.
April 25, 2023 3:22 a.m. Edited.
squirreldoctor says... #21
Mortlocke I say 50% as I've seen people who proxy entire EDH decks, which include cheap commons and uncommons that range from $0.10 to $10 and that to me is just lazy. I get proxying a card you only own 1 of that's really expensive that you want to use in multiple decks as do it myself. My thing about no proxies in tournaments is that some of those tournaments have actual money prize pools and if you bought in and you're set to win at least a grand or something you should have put in the money to justify running with the big dogs.
April 25, 2023 1:03 p.m.
Actually, now that WOTC sent Pinkertons to harass and threaten someone who posted spoilers, and take all of that stuff via force and intimidation, I've decided Proxying is my moral duty. He paid money, and was given the wrong boxes, and WOTC hired a nasty private security company with a dubious past to seize this mans product, that he paid for, and said he'd probably receive some complimentary replacements. This company keeps going further and further down the garbage chute, and this was a step too far even for them. Link below if you want to read about it.
So yea, I'll keep proxying and encouraging others to do the same. WOTC will get none of my money.
April 25, 2023 1:10 p.m.
It should be noted, the Pinkertons have gone through a number of reforms over the course of the past century and, presently, are more of a private investigation/private personal security organisation than the military group they were in the late 19th, early 20th century.
The only real facts are that Wizards hired a world-renowned private investigator to track down some of their missing product. That is actually pretty standard for the industry - you want to figure out how your stuff got out early, which means tracking it down and recovering it.
Everything else about “harassment” either is folks who are confusing the present for the past (or, more accurately, the present for Red Dead Redemption or BioShock) or self-serving statements made by the guy who, full well knowing he wasn’t supposed to have something, decided to leak the information anyway because he wanted attention.
The viable facts simply are not as bad as folks are making it out to be.
April 25, 2023 1:18 p.m.
sean360 That article seems kind of alarmist. The Pinkerton Agency is a legitimate loss prevention company, and many worthwhile companies have used them to recover stolen or leaked property. I'm not going to comment on their methods here other than to say they tend to be unnecessarily harsh, and they definitely have caused problems in the past. The WotC employee mentioned in the article seemed to be up front in admitting that the leak originated on their end, and that the reviewer would be fully compensated.
There are lots of reasons to dislike WotC at the moment, and I'm not going to be an apologist, but in this specific case, I think they handled it as well as they could. If anything, I would hold the Pinkerton agents responsible for any trauma the reviewer and his family might have suffered.
April 25, 2023 1:26 p.m.
Caerwyn Did you read the article? They didn't hire them to investigate, they hired them to recover the product, which again the person had paid fully for, and wasn't guaranteed actual compensation. They showed up talking about jail time and 200,000 fines if he didn't hand them the product, which sounds like harassment to me.
I usually enjoy your posts, but your comment about harassment and people mistaking video games for real life seem pretty condescending and taken well out of context. "Its not as bad as people have made it out to be" is an opinion, not a viable fact. There have also been modern issues with Pinkertons as recent as 2020, when their security detail shot and killed protestor.
legendofa All fair points, and I agree- my issue is not with WOTC's actions but who they decided to hire for what could have been a simple resolution. Hiring an agency with a consistently problematic history of excesive force and violence to do the job.
April 25, 2023 1:34 p.m.
As I said, the only “source” we have for the alleged harassment is a guy who knowingly leaked information he knew he was not supposed to have because he wanted internet fame. The very likely possibility he would pray on folks’ preconceived notions about an entity to extend his internet notoriety by a couple minutes gives legitimate cause to doubt his story.
Now, maybe you are willing to take the word of a smarmy person who decided it would be cool to hurt the community in order to get some internet fame, but you’ll have to pardon me if I stick with real facts - that he had something he shouldn’t, that Wizards acted in accordance with established business norms, and that Wizards has gone out of their way to say they don’t blame the guy.
I certainly do not think it is sensible to decide there is “a moral duty” to proxy based entirely on the story told by someone without any real credibility.
April 25, 2023 1:44 p.m. Edited.
sean360 Loss prevention agencies are pretty well-trained to get results first and ask questions later. I don't know how much independence this particular agent had, or if he was "just following orders" from his superiors or WotC/Hasbro's legal team or a similar group, but I suspect most other loss prevention agents would have followed a similar pattern, and I don't think sending a WotC intern to politely ask for their cards back would set a good precedent, even if it might have worked in this case.
April 25, 2023 1:44 p.m.
Caerwyn I think we have very different views on the matter and we can leave it at that. The "moral imperative" was mostly a joke, but based on how WOTC has been these last few years, how they have completely prioritized money at the cost of the game's health and against the consistent complaints of the community, I am encouraged more and more to proxy and not give them my money.
legendofa I wasn't suggesting they send an intern, just that their choice of company was deeply disappointing.
April 25, 2023 1:52 p.m.
That intern comment wasn't entirely serious, but my point is still that I think WotC handled it as well as they could, and other options (private investigator, less-influential agency, etc.) probably wouldn't have changed the events that much. The Pinkerton Agency has definite recent and historical problems, but they're still well-known and effective.
April 25, 2023 2:10 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #30
If the tournament allows proxies, which more and more are doing - why? If you lose to someone who had a fully proxied deck, or someone who bought each card at full price, you still lost.
April 25, 2023 4:34 p.m.
squirreldoctor says... #31
Grubbernaut It's the principle of the thing. Someone who has an entire deck of proxies in a tournament in my opinion means that they do not care about the hobby and they are not willing to put the time and effort into actually investing in the hobby. They might as well have printed a deck list off the net of a world championship deck, watched a video on how to play it, and laugh at those who they beat because their opponent's didn't do the same thing. And then where do you draw the line? Should we all just quit buying and trading cards and just print off everything we ever want? Should we destroy the LGSs by making it so we don't need to do business with them? Do we destroy the hobby because there's no point in buying singles, having trade binders, etc?
April 25, 2023 8:41 p.m.
In the 90's my family would watch a recorded VHS (slightly inferior) of a favorite movie for family night (usually Willow, Beetlejuice, Field of Dreams). Anyway, with no incentive to not do this & a low/middle income status, we were not alone in this. We weren't being criminal, we didn't really owe Paramount or WB anything. There was an inherent weakness to the product having a legal way to enjoy it for pennies on the dollar, that was just wise consumerism. When those companies (& 2ndary market video stores=LGS) ran into downroad problems with this they had to adapt or die, which a good company should always strive to adapt + grow anyway.
Caring about the hobby? What's it matter if 1/2 of a playgroup doesn't really care or invest? Or maybe they just don't care as much as you. Maybe they are there more for friends, something to do, a party/snacks/good booze & the they care more of about The Gathering & less about the Magic. Maybe, they have a family to support & they play Magic instead of poker night with the guys.
Destroying the hobby is a different thing than changing the face of the hobby, I'm not averse to things changing in a major way & if large-bulk, legal proxying fuels changes then I'm all for it. As for the LGS? Mine has made some really smart adaptations to push back against the inherent flaw of cardboard investment & it is admirable to see this, however if they failed to make necessary changes in the face of a changing market then that is also no skin off my back.
& I do get that when you are bringing principle into the conversation then that is an unchanging core value so most of those questions are rhetorical. I honestly just like to debate some principle from the other side of the fence as well. Its not like I actively don't fuel the $$ machine at all, or that I don't have a trade binder... Though recently I have been speaking more with my wallet, setting a lower cap for cardboard-spending, trying to reduce my binder size by selling collection independently. I have been encouraging others to do so as well.
April 25, 2023 11:44 p.m.
Arrzarrina says... #33
squirreldoctor That's a strawman argument. You've set up a theoretical person who has netdecked the best deck, printed it off and then acted like a jackass.
April 26, 2023 4:01 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #34
I do everything in my power to never give WotC money. My LGS is also a bar and restaurant, so I give them money that way. Most aren't proxy-friendly, anyway.
Regardless, the idea that printing a deck and watching a video will make you a competitive player is ridiculous prima facie, and leads me to believe you've never played competitively - and therefore, that it's not the real reason you're worked up about proxies.
At the end of the day, it's okay to "just not like" something, but trying to retroactively apply reasons that aren't really relevant only hurts the conversation.
Being "invested in the hobby" isn't causative of being a good player. The majority of people heavily invested in magic aren't competitive. You don't earn anything by buying product, least of all as a player.
April 26, 2023 7:07 p.m.
Maybe the "printed a deck list off the net of a world championship deck" comment was a little dramatic for effect, and I get that, but the point definitely speaks more to playgroup issues than to a rules issue of, proxy or no proxy. If a player is chasing the win that hard and the rest of the group doesn't like it, then maybe that player and their group don't mesh, because no amount of, we can do this and this but not this, will fix that kind of thing.
But even in that scenario, there are ways to make the game fun. We used to play my friend 1v3 when he had a competitive affinity deck and everyone else had old casual decks, I think mine was samurai, so way different powers, but fun.
I guess all I'm saying is, if your playgroup is balanced, you should be losing, a lot. When someone struggles with that, you might have to get creative to have fun, but to tell them, hey you can't play unless you play my way, that's a bit harsh. Talk to people, be honest about what is fun for you, ask them what is fun for them, have creative games, but most of all, it's probably good to remember that everyone is a player, and no one is better or worse than anyone just because how they want to play a game.
April 26, 2023 7:30 p.m.
Goldberserkerdragon says... #36
It's a game. Use what you have. Don't be overbearing about it. Actually build the deck instead of printing/ordering all the best. Cheers!
May 1, 2023 5:19 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #37
"Use what you have," says man whose lists have cards like Timetwister. Hmmmmm...
May 1, 2023 6:29 p.m.
Goldberserkerdragon says... #38
Grubbernaut Yes. I should have more poignantly said, "Use what you have/like... ." It is indeed a proxy. Caught me.
May 2, 2023 11:04 a.m.
in FNM I say no to proxies of regular cards but I do say yes for basic lands. I think people should be able to use custom basic lands so long as they are clearly identifiable.
May 3, 2023 9:40 p.m.
wallisface says... #40
Hydra1432 what’s the point of that? Basic lands are the most easily acquirable, affordable card. And they also have the most variety of unique printings. Proxying them solves a non-issue.
Reading your comment has made me assume you yourself have made proxy lands, but not other proxies, and so you’re just justifying stuff you’ve proxied, while gatekeeping what others may have (this may very well not be the case, but your stance does read very weirdly).
May 3, 2023 10:46 p.m.
wallisface Not all basic lands are affordable, especially if you want continuity of the art in your deck. It's because basic lands are a non issue is why I think in a sanctioned event proxy basics should be fine. I don't care about non sanctioned proxies, in high school I used to proxy out the bum so I understand why people proxy. I have seen very beautiful custom made basic lands and it is a shame that they are barred from use in official matches.
May 3, 2023 11:32 p.m.
Just another example of proxies being used for a wider variety of reasons than what they are often labeled for.
May 3, 2023 11:37 p.m.
Dangerwillrobinson79 says... #43
I'm in my 40's and have a few more bucks to build with than a some of the younger folks in my play group. Once we all agreed to playing proxy decks, our collections surged! Thing is, we don't collect cards. We collect decks. We build with no regard for anything beyond the confines of "This looks fun!". I'm up to 47 decks now and more than half wouldn't be eligible for use in the tournaments I've never played in. I'll never sell any my decks, real or proxy, and most people wouldn't be able to discern which was which with the sleeves on. Removing the price factor made our group games far more interesting and explosive. To be fair, their has been some power creep in the arms race to build incredible decks. All in all, it's made our squad's game nights pretty incredible.
May 4, 2023 8:38 p.m.
Dangerwillrobinson79 Exactly! I love this! I assumed most people who took issue with proxies would be talking about tournaments and public events only, I was really surprised to see so many took issues with proxies being used anywhere.
I am a deck collector too, I have 12 decks and I have built a minimum of 3-4 decks for the other three players in my group. They do not plan on investing in MTG, so proxying was the difference between them having fun decks and me having to build everyone a low power matching budget decks (Which we did by the way, just wasn't nearly as fun).
Before proxying, I had 5+ decks on tappedout, fully built and ready to go. I would always tell myself "I can put this together a few years from now" (lol) and honestly it was a huge bummer, I don't have much disposable income. Now I can build any deck, our powerlevel is fine because we build with it in mind, and consult each other on powerful stuff, and have a "Let's always try it first and see how it is" rule. Yea all of our decks are proxied, but we only play together, and it made the game exciting again.
I don't understand why me and my friends proxying at our kitchen table is seen as an issue, and people keep saying thing like "you should have to invest to have a good deck". It is a GAME and a lot of people just want to PLAY for FUN. I feel like too many people lose sight of that
May 5, 2023 8:56 a.m.
builttwospill says... #45
The taboo on proxies ended when wotc decided to spit in everyone's faces with their $1k proxy booster packs. Proxy anything you want. Your wallet shouldn't be what decides whether you ever get to play black lotus.
May 6, 2023 1:27 p.m.
I've already "invested" way too much in this game, and like sean360, I've had a much more fair and interesting kitchen table since we all started printing whole decks. Insisting on going without proxies effectively makes the game pay-to-win and pay-to-have-a-more-varied-experience, which in turn effectively turns the game into one of the world's most expensive subscription services. We don't have a duty to keep the gravy train running, nor is it good for the hobby for us to do so. If you don't like proxies, don't run them. If you won't play with people who proxy, we'll just find somebody else to play with.
May 7, 2023 5:28 p.m.
Licecolony says... #47
If I can't proxy my King Suleiman and Sliver Overlord and Morophon, the Boundless for my Anti Tribal-Tribal Tribal deck then I wouldn't have and Anti Tribal-Tribal Tribal deck.
Anti Tribal-Tribal Tribal
Truth is, it's a bad deck. It does cool stuff, but it's not cEDH by any means. If playing original dual lands makes it a bit better, it lets me play more cards like Floating-Dream Zubera and Dormant Sliver. I don't see how that could be bad or mean I lack creativity.
Budget does not breed creativity. It makes it difficult to express creativity.
May 8, 2023 9:31 p.m.
ElementEmo says... #48
I personally support the use of proxies because it allows you to freely experiment decks without committing. You don't know how a deck will run or if you'll like it in the end. Sure you can use online simulators, but it doesn't feel the same. It also makes sense to proxy if you already own such an expensive card, but you don't want to own 10 copies of Mana Crypt for maybe 10 of your decks.
Finally I refuse to spend $ to support WotC with their current practices.
May 11, 2023 4:43 a.m.
Arrzarrina says... #49
Licecolony - Limitations do breed creativity. I often build limitations into my decks, sometimes including budget. I've got an Esix deck which terrifies my playgroup despite having the limitation of every card costing less than a dollar.
Budget limits do hurt the power level of a deck but while it can flat out prevent some strategies from working, it makes you dig for the gold outside of EDHREC and that's a lot of the fun of brewing for me.
When it comes to 60x4 formats, the proposition is very different, so that's my viewpoint from commander. The cost of decks that need 4x $50 cards* to even function while being tier 1 in the format makes Modern/Pioneer/Standard very different.**
* Is everybody looking forwards to Sheoldred, the Apocalypse being in standard until 2025?
** Don't get me started on Legacy and the OG Dual Lands***
*** Really don't get me started on Vintage and the power nine
May 11, 2023 7:14 a.m.
Arrzarrina, I agree limitations can help creativity, but having to spend a big chunk of money just to try a deck out stifles it. I've had good results with fully-proxied decks that still have to meet budget limits (what the actual cards would have cost on the secondary market).
tablebeast says... #1
Hey there, Completelyunabletoreadyourpurplename, are you a mod? You sure seem to think you are.
April 22, 2023 12:16 p.m.