What is Your Opinion of Proxies?
General forum
Posted on Dec. 7, 2022, 8:50 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Some player use proxy cards, unofficial duplicates of official cards, either when they do not wish to spend an exorbitant sum of money on an expensive card that they desire, or when they already own such a card, but do not wish to use it in events.
Thus far, I do not have any proxy cards in any of my decks, because I have not needed them, since I do not use any cards that I cannot afford to purchase; however, I have been contemplating possibly purchasing proxies of certain cards to use in my decks, since it is very unlikely that I shall ever enter any WotC-sanctioned events, as I am not a very competitive player. I obviously would not be so cheap as to use proxies of Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, or the original moxen in my decks, but I see no problem with proxies of Sol Ring, as it is now an inexpensive and ubiquitous card, due to numerous reprints, or the original dual lands, as they are powerful, but not game-breakingly so, and are on the reserved list, so WotC shall never reprint them (at least not in tournament-legal form).
What does everyone else say about this? How do you feel about proxy cards?
Fae-Jester says... #2
I started Magic back before Alpha was called Alpha. I got out around Legends because my income couldn't keep up with the cards. In the past year or so, my DIL got me back into the game but in the intervening time, my income decreased. I can save for a couple of months and buy 1 EDH proxy deck. Buying proxies only if they are cheaper than the actual cards. I don't play anything official and the friends I play against don't care. I will build a deck on Forge and test it for a while, the move it to Cockatrice and play against my DIL getting feedback about cards Forge doesn't have or I was not aware of. If it is still viable, time to price the cards and see what I need to proxy.
May 13, 2023 12:48 a.m.
As a reminder, discussing proxying cards for your own use is fine. Discussing using proxies without mentioning their source is fine. Discussing paying for third-party proxied cards runs afoul of TappedOut’s rules regarding discussion of intellectual property violations.
May 13, 2023 1:43 a.m.
Krosnest07 says... #4
Proxy cards you already have. But want in more than one deck. Or proxy a card that you bought but still in the mail. Other than that, why even bother buying any cards? Can just proxy every single deck. And never have to buy anything.
May 14, 2023 3:09 p.m.
Licecolony says... #5
Have wizards print non tournament legal proxies for players on a budget :D like magic 30, expect for 50 cents a card. Nobody would proxy again.
May 14, 2023 3:33 p.m.
"why even bother buying any cards?"
This, but not rhetorically.
May 14, 2023 5:55 p.m.
Licecolony says... #7
kremsers. Honestly agree. I get tired of spending money on a company that clearly cares so little for its players. Maybe when they stop treating players as inconvenient middlemen to their cash, I'd buy cards. I'm not here to call doomsday on the game, but the release cycle and amount of cards from other IPs, the power creep, and their lack of support for LGS has been seriously concerning. The game isn't dying anytime soon, but damn do I wish corporate saw MTG as a game-as-a-service a bit more and gacha-roulette a bit less. I know they're a business, and I know they gotta turn a profit, but they also needed to do that a decade ago, and it FELT less egregious back then. Throw out card rarity as a proxy for power. Heck, throw out mythic rarity altogether. Print cards with less text. Sell sets on the back of interesting cards rather than broken mythics.
May 14, 2023 6:13 p.m.
Licecolony, that's basically my view of it. The oldschoolmtg thing was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back for me--it's the most egregious offense in my eyes, but it's far from the first.
I personally agree with the thing about other IPs. I like Magic as a self-contained thing with its own established flavor. If other people like UB, that's cool for them; "Magic is a buffet," after all. I'm just not happy about essentially having to eat what other people choose to put on their plates or be the jerk. The D&D stuff bothers me less because Magic has always been very similar to D&D, and the LotR stuff is just one step removed from that (I could go on a tear about the "players don't like drawbacks thing," but I'm trying to stay on topic), but I don't really enjoy having to interact with things like Transformers and Space Marines in my medieval fantasy game. This isn't so much what bothers me, although it's sort of symptomatic of the whole "push product and trust we'll bring in more customers than we alienate" approach.
What really bothers me, other than the oldschoolmtg thing, is, as you alluded to, using power creep to force eternal formats to rotate, and doing it at a breakneck pace. The whole reason I never got into Standard was I didn't want to have to choose between constantly buying new cards and being left in the dust. Magic is expensive. I don't mind spending a little money on a game I enjoy, but they keep cranking up the price and eroding what I enjoy about the game. I understand they have to keep the lights on, but we don't have an unconditional duty to foot the bill, and it's not healthy for the hobby for us to reward that attitude. There are other games to support, many of which need the support much more. There are other ways to support our LGSs, too.
The fact that some people are acting like proxies are irresponsible is mostly just amusing. I have a single deck worth over a thousand dollars in actual, non-proxied cards. If that were the only thing I'd ever bought from this company, and if I were completely happy with their business practices and their stewardship of the game, I'd still be comfortable saying it's time for them to be happy with what they've already gotten out of me.
May 14, 2023 6:38 p.m.
Also, as far as power level goes, yes, it's an issue if a player is using proxies to bring a CEDH deck to a casual pod. It's equally an issue if a player is using huge wads of spending cash to bring a CEDH deck to a casual pod. If you have players deliberately trying to stomp the pod with overpowered decks, that's your issue, not the method they use to achieve it. I'll agree that proxies are always used to power up a deck in the sense that you could always slap together a 1/10 version of the concept you had in mind, but if they're powering it up to the point that it's on par with the rest of your pod, that's a good thing.
May 14, 2023 7:01 p.m.
I have always been a fan of proxies as why pick up a single $30 card to add to a deck only to find out it adds little improvement to a more readily available card. Heck my first original deck idea I ran as proxy and am still glad I did. It would have been $300 and was unwinnable as it was so slow.
May 20, 2023 7:06 p.m.
PlasticEldritch says... #11
proxies are based, everyone should proxy. It lets people play cards they otherwise wouldn't and opens the hobby up to people who can't afford to drop 7 quadspillion dollars on cardboard. I enthusiastically encourage people to play with the cards they want to, whether or not they can afford them. Go for the abur duals if you want, don't limit yourself.
May 30, 2023 5:26 p.m.
I am perfectly fine with proxies for multiple reasons.
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If im play testing a deck, i dont want to buy cards just to find they didnt work in my deck building, especially if its for my modern/legacy deck.
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If I have like 4-6 copies of a staple card thats 40 bucks, im going to be less apt to buy ANOTHER copy of it. Maybe down the road i will, but i own copies already. if someone complains i will do a swap.
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if SELECT decks, i will do a proxy of my 100+ dollar cards. Case in point, my Mox Diamond is proxied in 2 decks only. I do not want to use it as much if I dont have to. (Thinking about how I got it for 20 bucks back in 2010 still astounds me)
Obviously, it comes down to your play group and such. I tell my friends who whine and moan about it that im actively Un proxying decks, but at the end of the day, its just paper, we want to have fun, and my EDH decks aren't cEDH.
June 6, 2023 12:44 p.m.
Being against proxies feels like silly gatekeeping to me honestly... Dont get me wrong, (when possible) we should support the company that makes the game we love so much, but it feels childish to be annoyed at the fact the the other guy's cardboard is not "official cardboard". The game can be played the same way
June 9, 2023 12:58 a.m.
I find it hard to justify the anti-piracy argument when I consider how much more money I've spent on this game than any other hobby of mine. And I would consider myself on the lower end of the MTG spending curve. Hasbro's got enough of my damn money; I'm not going to spend half of next month's rent just to keep up with other players. I say proxy away.
June 15, 2023 11:51 p.m.
I was finally able to convince my casual edh table that proxies are cool by showing them how hard it is to tell when they're double sleeved with a backer card we obviously don't play at events, just at buddies house but its nice to not have to spend an extra $200 to bring a deck up to snuff, also makes testing different builds of the same deck more feasible
June 16, 2023 11:27 a.m.
I don't use proxies myself, and I prefer not to play against them, but I am okay with others using them. In my experience, when people use proxies their decks and creativity tend to be very shallow. When cost is a limiting factor to acquiring the best/desired cards, people think of more unorthodox strategies with the cards they have or can afford. That's more fun to play with to me; it showcases the uniqueness of that player and their playstyle over a period of time, and you see more growth in the skill level of the pod.
June 16, 2023 12:25 p.m. Edited.
My experiences have told me it's a mixture of both viewpoints. In my pod there's a guy with the view that he won't buy expensive (he defines that as $5+) cards, and so as the rest of us slowly power up to beat each other, he's consistently sitting in the dust with his $20 deck. We usually don't mind when he uses proxies. It enables him to have fun with the rest of us.
When the rest of us use proxies, it's usually to test those more expensive cards, and it shows. I was trying turbo Krrik for a while, and my proxy Sheoldred, the Apocalypse was consistently winning games on its own. I think that's when proxies step over the line. They need to balance the game for everyone involved, without being the decisive factors in said games.
June 17, 2023 12:42 a.m.
realsoupersand says... #18
As a cEDH player, I am 100% in favor of proxies. I understand not allowing them in sanctioned events, though this game is far too expensive to truly justify that. The secondary market is out of control, WotC produces products at an absurdly fast rate that can make it hard to keep up with formats without additional investment, and the reserved list is an awful joke.
I say this as a player who owns a lot of reserved list cards. I don't typically proxy in my own decks unless I'm proxying a RL card I already own or trying to find a trade while I'm working on a new deck. That being said, I encourage anyone that I play with to proxy anything they want as long as it's legal in the format. I don't care if they proxy Tabernacle, Timetwister, or anything else. I want to be able to play this game with people at their best.
I also feel like proxying is an excellent way to test without needing to spend money or trades on a card you're not sure about.
The high cost of entry to this game is a deterrent to new players, especially those that want to get into EDH. Sure, they could play other formats, but there's a reason that EDH is the most popular way to play this game. Sure, they don't have to play cEDH, but they're still going to be at a disadvantage compared to the person at the table packing fetches, Dockside Extortionist, and all the good tutors. Sure, there should be a discussion before each game about the power level that players want to generally be at, but that doesn't help the fact that newer players who actually want to play at a higher level have an extremely difficult wall to pass.
My group encourages proxies. Most of us don't use them because we like to have the real card in our hands, but we wouldn't care if someone showed up with a deck that is 100% proxied, right down to the basic lands. We just want to play the game.
June 17, 2023 7:56 p.m.
My opinion depends on who/where I'm playing:
friends at a kitchen table ... do whatever the group is ok with and rule 0 to your hearts' content.
casual group at an LGS ... if you own a card, then proxy as many extra copies of it as you want for other decks.
playing for prizes at an organized event ... every card in your deck better be real.
June 17, 2023 10:50 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #20
I am very pleased to see that this discussion is still going well, even several months after I started it!
June 17, 2023 11:29 p.m.
Flusterstorm says... #21
The type of people to proxy a $5000 deck to play with their casual group or expect to show up at a game store and be accepted at a random table are bastards but I think they're basically fair game otherwise (especially if you're just proxying cards you already own and don't wanna keep a list of all the tutors and lands you need to swap between decks.)
Not everyone has a friend group that's super addicted/dedicated or lives in a bigger city. Spending potentially thousands on a stack of paper you get to use every 2 months sucks. There are probably entire playgroups that just proxy.
Pokemon TCG goes as far as openly supporting proxies and have turned it into an income source. The top 4 decks from each worlds get printed out as proxy decks for like $20 each.
June 18, 2023 5:54 p.m. Edited.
I don't like proxies, I believe they take away from the general playing experience even in casual kitchen-table format EDH (actually especially in this). So many people label it as gate-keeping, but I have new fresh players in my friend groups that all dislike them too with no collection to talk about. Aside from print quality, card weight/feel and all the technicalities, I've never not seen a time where it's replacing really difficult to get cards that they don't own, i.e directly power-creeping up the deck every time. Take for example a relatively low cost card Lightning Greaves, there are several other options available that can give similar results such as Swiftfoot Boots that are as cheap as making a proxy. This is true for many of the cards I do see getting proxied. The way I look at it, is low-cost more budget decks are the most fun way to play 99% of the time in a large-scale casual group. Unicorns, why not? Pre-con with a few extras, sounds like fun. There are a million ways to play cheaply which you get to have fun with - and yes I'm a believer that extra colours = extra power options = land base SHOULD be harder to deal with. Dealing with enter tapped lands and what not isn't actually a bad thing relative to the additional resources you get. Sadly, any play group I've been a part of, even casually, there are always the few that only want to "win no matter what", which when they have to pay will at least limit their decks. Going onto edhrec and taking all the top cards into a decklist in 15 minutes then printing them off, is to me, a shallow gameplay experience that doesn't add variety or fun but rather forces all players to either conform to that standard or not compete. Creativity drives success and a meaningful connection with what you've built as a deck. Take tappedout for example and the plethora of decks in here that are budget friendly, find ones that you think are really cool - or delve into the deck building yourself, constructing something that is unique to you - there are endless possibilities!
When proxies are okay: play-testing a deck idea. I mean, this should be relatively apparent, if you are trying to build a deck it's not fair to assume someone should buy the whole thing before even trying the style of it. Put something together quickly and ask a friend to help - there is nothing at all wrong with this and should be encouraged. Ordering cards can take a while if you're unable to get them directly local. If you have cards for your deck literally coming in the mail yet you still want to make good proxies to play the deck because you're excited, I'm not going to fault anyone for that. I also disagree with proxying cards that you already own - as I also encourage the bigger collections to be as creative as the small ones. If you have 20 decks but they all need Mana Crypt that's worse than any new player proxying it. With that said, if you're just missing a few random cards due to unavailability, take 5(ish) cards that are $5 or less each that are thought out additions to a deck - I don't think proxying those should hurt anyone.
Summary of thoughts: Don't proxy a whole deck to just simply try and win, make sure even if proxying in any situation to never sacrifice creativity and fun. Don't flex your collection in every deck, make budget decks and low powered decks. Allow friends to share decks and try out all your friends decks - that's part of the fun of magic. Lower power/value alternatives, contrary to popular belief, are just as much fun as their high powered versions, and due to the variable nature of a multiplayer kitchen table format can be just as good!! With all the comments highlighting peoples' interest and want of proxies I'll continue to try becoming more open-minded about the use of proxies, and maybe if we get a high quality option in my friend group we can try it some time to see if it updates my opinion :)
June 19, 2023 8:28 a.m.
I don't mind proxies, at all.
Still, the only kind I use in Magic are to represent double-face cards in my deck; I'll take a basic land, scribble the name and cost of the double-face card on it, and whenever I play the card, I'll throw it on the table and immediately replace it with the actual double-face card. This is because I mostly don't play with sleeves, though, so I can't hide the back face with those.
I did have proxies of Ash Blossom for a time, though, for my yugioh deck, before I finally cashed in for the real deal.
June 19, 2023 10:58 a.m.
Bridging off something Duckling said, in the pods I play in, a big part of the community is handing cards down to people. Someone new joins and wants to make their basic deck better, or someone gets their cards stolen out of their work locker, or someone wants to make their first cEDH deck. That's when other members of the pod step in to donate and gift cards. Some of us have more experience and cards than others, but we all still have this "shared collection" attitude - if someone in the pod needs a card they don't have, it can be an act of great generosity when you give them the card, regardless of the cost. That I think helps cut down on the desire for proxies in my pods, we have cards and we'll freely gift them around to newer players.
Many of the cards we have we got from other players when they retired or took a break too. Sure, we purchase the vast majority with our own (hard-earned) money, but a lot of the cards have legends of their own attached to them, like the time my buddy gave me a Tundra, and I gave it back to him when times got hard and he needed assets. Now whenever we see a Tundra, it means something special to our pod, much more than if I had simply proxied it and he sold his.
June 19, 2023 1:49 p.m.
scotchtapedsleeves says... #25
A big draw to proxies that's been overlooked in this thread is the potential for using custom art on cards. Personally, I'm in the process of ordering a ton of custom art lands, signets, talismans, sol rings etc. A few points in this thread have revolved around proxies being "cheap" and a lazy way to get new cards, but there's a ton of potential to further customize your deck.
I'm definitely in the minority here spending money on proxies, but it's cheaper and more personal than buying official cards!
June 19, 2023 4:05 p.m.
As yet another reminder, refrain from talking about buying or selling proxies. Discussing proxies generally is fine, but discussion of purchasing third-party proxies violates this site’s rules.
June 19, 2023 4:46 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #27
scotchtapedsleeves, yes, I have seen some proxies with amazing artwork, which makes me wonder why WotC does not hire the artists who made those card to provide official artwork for the game.
June 19, 2023 5:48 p.m.
Really, it's only a matter of time until they work out a (cheaply produced, yet hard to copy) stamp of some sort that you somehow purchase from them to make a proposed card/"proxy" official... I know this is not working out tons of kinks, but if I can envision it, then you know someone for the company is probably looking that way.
Picture it as a sort of bought "reversal of the silver-border" effect :) You want your special proxy sanctioned? pay us & make-it-so.
June 19, 2023 11:42 p.m.
wallisface says... #29
Gleeock there’s zero chance they’d even consider that. It would make it ridiculously hard to monitor cheating in tournament play (using different weight cardstock, using images for cards that closely resemble completely different cards, etc). There’s also no financial reason for them to pursue any such endeavour
June 19, 2023 11:52 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #30
Just because you can envision something doesn’t mean anything other than that’s what you’re currently thinking about.
I can envision mark rosewater burning Hasbro headquarters to the ground with a flamethrower, that does not mean it’s currently being considered.
June 20, 2023 3:59 p.m.
EspeonLover320 says... #31
Proxies are fine in both casual and competitive events as long as they're friendly and not WotC sanctioned events imo. Especially for eternal formats like Legacy and cedh. However, you just need to keep in mind your table's power level. If you're not running a high power table (not cedh), then be careful about what you proxy. Usually people aren't gonna care if you proxy lands unless it's something really crazy like a Gaea's Cradle. However, if you're going for a high power table proxy as much as you want as long as the deck doesn't fall into cedh. Just my outlook.
June 20, 2023 5:52 p.m.
If there's a power-problem running a certain card proxied in your pod, then there's the same problem running the real deal. The proxy isn't the problem there, the card is.
So no, I have no problem with (readable) proxies whatsoever. Proxies are fine, no limits.
June 20, 2023 6:05 p.m.
wallisface what do you mean "no financial reason"?, there is plenty of financial reason to pull more profits direct to Hasbro. Paying them direct to sanction proxies would be another way to work around tertiary vendors. I guarantee if there are more ways to bring profit direct to the company then it has been at least considered, that's what companies do: consider all avenues to profit.
... make a paid-for custom card have a specific foil stamp attached, keep it in a QRC database once it is paid for, nothing is impossible.
I'm sure there were people that said some of the same thing about the concept of the Secret Lair too.
Daveslab2022 If it is potential source of profit, even a wild one, then it has very likely been looked at by a corporate team... maybe rejected, but still reviewed.
June 21, 2023 11:13 p.m.
As others have mentioned: this is the same CR team that agreed to greenlight the 30th Anniversary debacle :)
The CR/no-fun-poopypants team had one time to shine & they biffed, it is up to marketing/creative to be progressive & it is up to CR to knock it down. So, if WoTC has a stronger marketing voice than they do CR, nothing is really off the table... & it is well known that the whale market for super-special-unicorn magic cards is as strong incentive as ever for direct-to-company profit generating engines.
June 21, 2023 11:49 p.m.
wallisface says... #35
Gleeock there’s no financial reason because its undermining the value of their own product. Adding this mechanism doesn’t increase their sales, it just complicates their sales model and adds extra costs on their part. Furthermore, if this mechanism is cheaper than buying the real-deal (as one would expect it to), then people will just pursue that option and put a massive dent in their regular revenue, lowering their share.
June 22, 2023 12:29 a.m.
wallisface says... #36
Gleeock putting it into an example, lets say you have a game that costs $10 to play, and you have 10 customers - so you’re getting $100.
Now, lets say you add in your “sticker” method, at a $5 price point. Some existing players will keep playing at the higher price point, but most players aren’t whales, so from your existing players only 2 might stay at the $10 bracket, while the other 8 will drop down to the $5 investment. Even if your customer bases rises by a very-generous %50, up to 15 players, you’re still only getting $85… you’ve lost money.
June 22, 2023 12:37 a.m.
Gleeock - There are major, obvious differences between Wizards selling their own (overpriced and stupid) proxies and Wizards selling a way to validate others’ proxies.
One makes sense - “We have this intellectual property we cannot really use in regular card products. Players like these cards. What if we find a way to give players these cards and make some money when doing so?”
There were other issues with the pricing and marketing, but the underlying idea was not stupid. It would probably have been downright celebrated if the cost per pack was something like $10.00 with a wider print run.
Your idea is likely never bracing considered because it is really, really bad. Essentially Wizards would be inviting people to counterfeit their cards, steal their IP for their profit, and devalue the entire market of the game.
It would be objectively terrible for Thai game by any reasonable metric. They would have to have a fixed price for any such sticker - they cannot have a sliding scale based on card value as that would be directly acknowledging the secondary market. That would put a major cap on certain cards, creating a huge financial burden for game stores and average players who now see massive drops in their collection’s prices. After all, if you are a player, not a collector - and data shows players outnumber collectors, why pay for an older card when you can just buy a proxy for cheaper? That sudden drop in demand across the board, rather than incrementally from reprints, would be terrible for the businesses this game - and we players - rely upon.
Then there is the destruction of card pack value and reprint equity (Wizards ability to use certain cards to drive sales). A sudden ability for anyone to print cards on demand tanks the primary driving force behind Wizards selling packs. After all, why buy packs to chase cards that might have value when players just legally proxy and “buy” the card directly.
Then there is devaluation of the intellectual property. This idea would effectively give anyone a license to print Wizards’ IP and retroactively get approval to use that IP. That is terrible for down-the-road protection of one’s intellectual property rights and could create all kinds of legal problems. Even if someone in the rest of Wizards team was foolish enough to legitimately float this idea, Legal would never stand for it.
And, of course, one need look too hard on Google to see borderline pornographic, misogynistic, or otherwise creepy proxies folks print. Wizards giving an ability to legitimise proxies would also allow folks to legitimise these kinds of proxies - it isn’t like Wizards is going to hire hundreds of staff to vet cards before sending out your hypothetical sticker. That would be horrible for this game - particularly players already marginalised by the many bigoted or creepy players who exist within any nerdy community.
Wizards makes dumb decisions on a regular basis; but they make dumb decisions that were born of good intentions and ideas, and which could have been beneficial to the game had implementation been better.
Your hypothetical is not in the same boat - it is an obviously bad idea from its very inception, wherein every road from that idea leads to massive problems for the game itself.
If you honestly think this is something Wizards might consider, you simply are not paying attention to the decisions Wizards makes and the reasons behind them.
June 22, 2023 12:54 a.m.
Shutting down creativity is easy.. just call it stupid. There are ways around everything & they will find a way when profit is involved, or they won't & therefore they never do it. With Secret Lair there were probably tons of the same kind of CR folks that had multi-page paragraphs trying to shut that down too... Subcontract artists? have a licensed printer? SL had a nightmare labrynth of logistical issues too.. I don't know, but I know you are obviously looking for the CANNOT WORK scenarios, then just dismissing it all as a bad idea, not really progressive thinking there.
June 23, 2023 9:34 a.m.
Also, I'm not saying that those prints would be cheaper to make to devalue the entire product (I was originally trying to say "cheap" for Hasbro - not the consumer), it sounds like a pretty $$ idea. It would be more like a way to license all those unicorn cards that people seem to want.
June 23, 2023 9:38 a.m.
It sounds like you're calling people uncreative now. Just because people aren't willing to do mental gymnastics to support an idea they disagree with doesn't mean they lack imagination or don't think progressively.
June 23, 2023 11:13 a.m.
Gleeock - You have been given numerous reasons why it isn’t - and have not articulated a single valid counterpoint to any of those reasons. Instead, you have tried to deflect and say others are not creative and have tried to draw an incredibly obvious false equivalency between a product made by Wizards and your proposal of Wizards retroactively rehabilitating intellectual property theft by third parties.
Neither of those are responsive to the counterpoints made and neither are sound arguments.
The former simply demonstrates you are unwilling to defend your own ideas - you are trying to shift the burden of defense onto your detractors by effectively saying “rather than have me provide counterpoints, you are to blame for not thinking up the counterpoints yourselves.” That is just bad form - it is your idea and you hold the burden of defending it. The clear attempt to shift the burden of defense onto others usually indicates you do not know how to articulate a defense - which itself should tell you maybe your idea is not very good.
The second likewise shows you are not actually thinking this through, ignoring the clear and obvious distinction between “product Wizards makes using Wizards intellectual property” and “product someone else makes using Wizards intellectual property without obtaining before-the-fact permission for usage.” Further, you ignore the complaints about SLs (that they are greedy and prey on fear of missing our mentalities) are fundamentally different arguments than those presented against your idea (threat it poses legally to Wizards’ ability to protect their IP; issues with Wizards possibly legitimising the numerous sexist proxies that exist; issues with variable quality and potential marked cards due to unstandardised printing practices; etc.). Instead, you try to hand waive all detractors into a single group, ignoring they hold incredibly different motivations and reasons, and thus cannot be equated.
Thus, this “argument” such that it is, does not really support your position - it is based on a false equivalency between fundamentally different ideas and a clear misunderstanding about the completely different points of detraction between the two ideas.
(It should be noted, your second argument also shows you do not actually understand how this game is made - subcontracted artists and using printing services have been parts of this game since the beginning and are used with literally every set. Your suggesting those are new “logistical difficulties” for SLs proves your lack of knowledge on how this game is made, further destroying your credibility.)
I get that it can be hard to admit “huh, maybe my idea was, in fact, bad.” We as humans - particularly on the internet - do not like to admit we can make mistakes. But you have been provided numerous legal, practical, and financial reasons why your idea is flawed at its core, and, rather than counter those ideas, you responded with thin non sequiturs. Even you do not seem confident your suggestion is a good one - if you were, you would have actually defended it, rather than lash out in a defensive manner.
June 23, 2023 11:27 a.m.
CrimsonKing says... #42
I have a a few friends that have full proxy decks and I run a few here and there to not have to switch over certain cards. I personally like owning the cards myself but my opponents not so much.
I just want to play magic with people!
June 23, 2023 12:45 p.m.
Ok, we will just call ideas stupid now, even with a successful analogue existing to what I can imagine. Then using the same CR counterpoints you will give credence to a universally panned product, because that idea was not "stupid". I said at the beginning of all this, there are counterpoints because they are a dime-a-dozen, but only 1 that I have seen by wallisface is both: concise & possibly insurmountable by what I a envision, I guess I will leave it at that. I will stop usurping the proxy post now & agree to disagree on this being a future possibility.
June 23, 2023 12:59 p.m.
One pretty sweet rule 0 my kitchen table group did was implement an OG dual land policy that if you've been there in person, you can use a proxy with a selfie as the custom art.
For example, I have proxies for Tundra (selfie from trip to Rocky Mountain National Park), Bayou (trip to Louisiana), Volcanic Island (trip to Big Island of Hawaii), Tropical Island (trip to Kawaii), Taiga (trip to Alaska), and Badlands (selfie from trip to Badlands National Park).
I've always thought that was a fun way to bring the lore to life: you've been there, so you get to channel the mana from that experience like the planeswalker you are! Plus we want to incentivize each other to travel rather than buying a piece of cardboard that's probably the same price of a plane ticket.
June 29, 2023 7:21 p.m.
Trumpet I may just be drunk on awesome cognac right now. But everything sounds awesome about that idea.
June 29, 2023 11:16 p.m.
June 29, 2023 11:22 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #48
June 30, 2023 8:57 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #50
kremsers, I imagine that it is because they do not wish to offend mainstream audiences, since most "normal" people (a highly subjective descriptor) are not fond of bondage.
Pickles_of_DOOM says... #1
Personally, all for them, I don't use them often but they make the game more accessible to ppl and that's never a bad thing
May 12, 2023 3:27 a.m.