What is Your Opinion of Proxies?
General forum
Posted on Dec. 7, 2022, 8:50 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Some player use proxy cards, unofficial duplicates of official cards, either when they do not wish to spend an exorbitant sum of money on an expensive card that they desire, or when they already own such a card, but do not wish to use it in events.
Thus far, I do not have any proxy cards in any of my decks, because I have not needed them, since I do not use any cards that I cannot afford to purchase; however, I have been contemplating possibly purchasing proxies of certain cards to use in my decks, since it is very unlikely that I shall ever enter any WotC-sanctioned events, as I am not a very competitive player. I obviously would not be so cheap as to use proxies of Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, or the original moxen in my decks, but I see no problem with proxies of Sol Ring, as it is now an inexpensive and ubiquitous card, due to numerous reprints, or the original dual lands, as they are powerful, but not game-breakingly so, and are on the reserved list, so WotC shall never reprint them (at least not in tournament-legal form).
What does everyone else say about this? How do you feel about proxy cards?
JustThemis says... #3
Huh, can't imagine why...
I don't have a problem with proxies if you're testing something out before buying the cards. Otherwise, don't take someone else's IP without paying for it.
While I appreciate beautiful art, as a player, I don't like proxy cards with alt art. It's confusing, they are sometimes hard to read, and inappropriate (horrific, overly sexualized, etc) alt art is never okay.
July 2, 2023 11:18 p.m.
@ JustThemis,
Hi, may I introduce you to our lord and savior - Secret Lair?
"alt art is never okay" going by that logic then the myriad of alternate "non traditional" borders from the previously mentioned must frustrate you something Fierce. I think a more reasonable opinion should be as long as the card doesn't have graphic sexual themes or outright gore and most important- is legible and easy to understand then it should be okay.
As for proxies themselves, I have been spending money on cards since 2002. Wizards easily has thousands of dollars out of me. But with the recent price hikes for product I'm leaning more toward proxies. If I really want the card or to formally own a deck sure I'll get the real cards - but you don't need to own literally every single card to play magic, ya dig? Just invest as much or as little as you want. It's a game, not a financial investment.
July 3, 2023 11:38 a.m. Edited.
Mortlocke I'd say anything can be okay at a kitchen table that's okay with it, but that has to be clearly established beforehand, and the LGS isn't the place for, uh, "mature themes."
I think a lot of people's issues with alters and proxies come from people using them to do things that would already violate the social contract if alters and proxies weren't involved. Don't creep people out with inappropriate art, and don't deliberately pubstomp your pod with a deck that's way above everyone else's power level. If you can't handle that, you're probably going to be miserable to play with regardless of whether you have access to proxies.
JustThemis As for "taking someone's IP," I'm not, and I don't have the ability to. They published their cards online, and I'm using those cards to play a game. I don't owe them a cent, legally or ethically.
July 3, 2023 2:03 p.m.
Mortlocke Themis didn't say it was never okay, you're oversimplifying their statement.
Also, opinions don't need to be reasonable
July 3, 2023 4:06 p.m.
Needed to re-read the statement. The parenthesis threw me off. I thought it just read as "alt art is never okay". Nah. I'm all for what JustThemis is saying. Preaching the choir. Simple misread on my part. Nothing as nefarious as purposefully simplifying a comment to try and make an argument or to be a contrarion.
Art is subjective. But playing a Mana Crypt with a naked anime girl at a table of strangers is deeply inappropriate and cringe. Individuals who do that and make players uncomfortable should be asked to remove the card from the deck or be removed from the pod.
July 3, 2023 4:19 p.m.
delliott1978 says... #8
I use proxies of cards that I already own, while playing commander, because it's a true pain to un-sleeve and then re-sleeve the cards that I share across multiple decks. The meta I play in is competitive, and if you want to occasionally win, you have to play powerful(expensive) cards, and the cost to own more than one EDH deck, so the rule for our game circle is, you have to own at least one copy of any proxy you play in league. But, if it's just you and your friends play for fun, as long as everyone agrees proxy all the decks, try to pilot a more competitive, and complicated game, while maybe find a new way to play this game we all love and want to grow.
July 4, 2023 1:22 p.m.
The more decks I build, the more against proxies I become. I used to be wholly in favor of them, but the more effort and money I put into the hobby, proxies feel like a slap in the face. I worked hard to obtain legitimate copies of what all I have. No one should be able to print off the same thing for pennies. I don't care if they're a $0.01 card or a $1,000 card. Stop being lazy, WORK for what you have, and get the actual card. I sacrificed and saved for every last original dual land I have, every Time Walk, every Moxen, all of them are the result of hard work and sacrifice. Stop allowing handouts like proxies.
July 9, 2023 12:46 p.m.
Licecolony - This is a friendly thread where everyone is welcome to their opinion. You might disagree with the opinion or the way the opinion is presented, but that does not give you the right to categorically and crassly dismiss another’s post in a nonconstructive manner.
July 9, 2023 3:36 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #12
wpnmstr23, please do not tell me that you are in favor of the reserved list.
July 9, 2023 5:38 p.m.
I prefer to put my work into my family, home, & practical assets. Then again... I wouldn't have made a cool $800.00 this weekend from selling cardboard if there weren't people that would rather have moxen than better practical things. I couldn't imagine having the time in my life to "feel slapped in the face" because I felt that everyone should feed the corporate greed-machine.
July 9, 2023 6:28 p.m.
On some of that note, proxies can be a bit of a scapegoat for some other issues in the game. A big one is: validation of expenditure. It's along the same line of why you can spend $12.00 on a deep-fried corn dog at a fair & it is "worth every penny" except this concept also carries the burden of proof as well. I've seen many a player struggle with concepts like losing with grace or even playing for fun as they have placed significant stakes on specific decks due to the resources they poured into them... The whole: "I am going to feel horrible if this game doesn't go my way.. after all, that is $2,000.00" .. The thing is, if those decks aren't humming along well & proxies aren't the issue, then something else will be an issue, when the true issue can lie, insidiously, in the mirror. Some of my 'neuro-diverse' thinkers have major issues with this, they already often have archetypical issues with loss & failure, so one of the first things I recommend is lowering the stakes (less eggs in one basket) in order to not put performance pressure on oneself.
July 9, 2023 7:54 p.m.
Licecolony says... #15
Nah man. There are plenty of anti-proxy arguments I'm used to hearing and fine with. I understand not liking alternate art, I understand not liking unreadable proxies, I understand not liking to play against over-powerful cards, I understand feeling like playing to a budget keeps people creative. I disagree that those can't be resolved in a rule 0 discussion, but I understand where people are coming from.
But the argument "I paid $800 for this, so everyone else should also have to pay $800 for the same thing," is ridiculous. You worked hard for your cards because you felt you would enjoy playing with those cards. Just because you "worked and sacrificed" why do other people around you need to make the choice to sacrifice to play a card game? We're talking about a game. If you want to make sacrifices to play, that's your prerogative. I don't. I just want to play.
Your argument boils down to "just work harder and make more money." That's elitist bullshit.
July 9, 2023 10:20 p.m. Edited.
wpnmstr23 The issue I take with this narrative of "putting effort into the hobby" is that it conflates money with effort, it conflates the hobby with a specific game, and it conflates the good of the hobby with the good of one company that I don't think has a track record of behaving in a way that's beneficial either to that specific game or to the hobby as a whole.
Putting effort into the hobby means fan art, programming third-party tools, sharing interesting deck ideas, devising new ways to play card games, and so on; I'm glad people do that, partly because that behavior actually is a positive contribution to the hobby as a whole, but it's not as though we're all morally obligated to do so. Exchanging money for cards isn't putting effort into the hobby; it's putting money into the card market. If that's how you choose to gamble, power to you, but people who choose not to join you aren't hurting you nor the hobby and don't deserve to be shamed for it. Some people also don't have the luxury of making that choice--are struggling single parents, for example, less worthy of playing a card game than the rest of us?
It sounds like your grievance is that the money you choose to spend doesn't give you an edge, either competitively or in terms of having fun, over other people who don't pour as much money into cardboard. If you'd like to win a contest that's about who can spend the most money, there's always the stock market.
July 9, 2023 10:34 p.m.
"wpnmstr23, please do not tell me that you are in favor of the reserved list."
@ DemonDragonJ, I actually am, but not for the reasons you'd expect. You remember Magic 30th? That was WOTC's first attempt at creating a RL product. Using that as a basis, I just assume every subsequent product containing RL cards would simply alienate the player base from the game.
For now, the only option that doesn't involve deeply out of touch executive decisions is proxying.
July 10, 2023 12:48 a.m. Edited.
Quick rant - if I were to see a RL reprint product this is what I'd love to see: Magic 30th again, but with real RL chase cards randomly inserted into packs (not reprints, ACTUAL cards) at $3.50 USD a pack at an unlimited print run. Doesn't satisfy everyone, but it fulfills an important aspect of the game: accessibility.
July 10, 2023 12:56 a.m.
I mean, maybe part of why it's a hard argument is that proxying is an easy thing for any player to have an opinion on, and I think most people can make decks they want to use whether or not they are proxying anything, but, it's just it all gets much different when any player takes their take on it and tries to set rules in a group. Because, if everyone is on the same page, you don't need to say anything about proxies in your group, so if you're the one to bring it up, you're probably causing some degree of conflict because another player wants to do something different.
Not to say that conflict is always a bad thing, and sometimes it's the only way to make a change for the overall better, but I do think that sometimes it's good to consider, maybe I've got ideas on proxies, but in a four player commander game, I'm only one fourth of the ideas on proxies, and in the end all I can really do is make a deck the way I want to make it.
I guess what I'm really saying is, with the argument of "work for it, pay for the cards" is two very different arguments, because "I've paid for it" is a choice and "you pay for it" is a demand.
July 10, 2023 1:07 p.m.
Also, while I agree it's crass, dismissive, and nonconstructive to call something a "shit take" without explaining why, so is saying that people who don't share your opinion on how best to play a card game are lazy and implying they must not work for a living. You anti-proxy people are entitled to your opinion, but some of you need to step back and realize your desire to police how other people play a game doesn't make you the only adult in the room.
July 10, 2023 9:05 p.m.
alechodgin23 says... #21
I only use proxies if i have already own a copy of the card that I'm buying. For example. I own a Mana Crypt, Yawgmoth's Will, Cyclonic Rift, etc. I want to include cards like this in multiple decks, but I'm not going to drop another $200 on Yawgmoth's Will. I think that if you don't own the cards, you shouldn't purchase the proxies. However, I would just speak to my play group about it and see what everyone is cool with. Proxies can be a great thing, and Proxyking.biz is by far the best place to purchase them!
Side note: Maybe your play group could agree to each of you having 1 deck full of the most powerful cards/proxies that exist and occasionally playing a game with it.
July 29, 2023 11:15 a.m.
decktestbuild says... #22
Proxies suck the fun out of the game completely for me. My cousin was an avid player in the 90's, but as soon as he figured out how to print proxies he made a deck with nothing but proxies; a squirrel deck...and it really sucked to lose to a pack of 16/16 squirrel tokens so fast. I think he was making a statement that the game is dumb and I never played with him ever again after that and I don't think he plays magic anymore. I usually only play with my brothers and because of that history proxies are forbidden in our group. btw my cousin also cheated with a rigged deck by cutting the sleeves shorter on cards he wanted to draw so whenever he shuffled the deck he could put the cards he wanted on top.(I found out by shuffling it and a card fell out and I noticed the sleeve was much shorter than the rest.) He'd also try to lie with rules to gain an advantage; for example, he would put a Regeneration on your creature and then regenerate it to tap it. Which is not how regeneration works. You can activate the regeneration ability but it doesn't take effect until the next time it would take lethal damage or be destroyed and then it taps and is removed from combat.
August 5, 2023 12:37 p.m.
Licecolony says... #23
Call this a hot take, but I don't think proxies were the issue there.
August 5, 2023 4:25 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #24
Licecolony, I agree, as I believe that the issue is that WotC has declared that they shall never reprint certain cards, which I feel is ridiculous, as it hurts the majority of players in the game, due to a small number of people complaining about their cards losing value.
August 5, 2023 7:34 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #25
Well I mean there were also the multiple different instances of cheating that seem to be a bigger problem than the proxying.
August 5, 2023 9:07 p.m.
nammertime says... #27
Just weighing in with my 2 cents on the original topic.
I don't use proxies. I'd rather play with what I have, and obtain what I can within my means. The pleasure I get from being able to compete and/or win (casually) with cards I own trumps perfecting a deck with the ideal cards (whether they be efficient or thematic).
That being said, I don't mind that others use proxies, but I'd rather not play against a competitive and (actually) expensive netdeck full of proxies that someone is just 'testing.' If I were to ever use a proxy, it'd be because it had unique art and all it did was replace a card I already owned, for the cool factor.
August 6, 2023 7:45 p.m.
nammertime, I think you have the right to play or not play against whatever you want. I imagine, though, that you also wouldn't suddenly want to play your unproxied deck against a CEDH deck just because the pilot was a rich person who actually dropped $10k+ on the deck, which would make it a power level issue rather than a proxy issue. Do you agree?
August 7, 2023 5:29 a.m.
kremsers The opportunity to play against such expensive, real cards is rare for some. I'd take them up on it to hear the stories of how they acquired each one as we play.
What's the story of a proxies card? "I thought this card was cool, but I'm broke, so I printed out a picture of it." Using proxies on a $10k deck is like someone rolling up to a street race with Hot Wheels - don't expect respect.
August 7, 2023 10:47 a.m.
KongMing If a Hot Wheels car had exactly the same performance as a Formula One car, I don't imagine most people would care. Why does a piece of cardboard automatically have a story if it's printed by a specific company but not if it's printed by a player? You could be equally reductionist about the official card: "I thought this card was cool, and I've got lots of disposable income, so I bought it on the secondary market." I think this conversation involves a lot of mysticism regarding official product and a lot of disdain for people who can't or won't spend lots of money on cardboard. The day I get respect from someone whose respect is conditioned on giving lots of money to Hasbro is the day I rethink my life.
August 7, 2023 10:56 a.m.
It's not mysticism. One is the real thing. The other is not.
Hasbro doesn't make money from resales and trades.
August 7, 2023 11:38 a.m. Edited.
KongMing You're not hurting my point; you're proving it. Both things are objectively real and equally capable of performing the same function, but you attach a metaphysical significance to the one manufactured by a specific company.
August 7, 2023 12:17 p.m.
I can't edit comments, but I'd like to propose a metaphor I think is a better fit than your Hot Wheels at a street race. Some girls will judge you negatively because you don't have a Prada bag because they attach a metaphysical significance to the brand. It's "real" in the same way that your Magic cards are real: functionally identical to a non-Prada bag, but made by Prada. If you have a lot of disposable income, and you want to "earn" the respect that comes with spending it on a bag, by all means, spring for the Prada bag. I think that's a silly game to play, though, and I get a lot more out my bag money by refusing to play it, so those girls are free to withhold their respect; I'm happier without it.
August 7, 2023 12:34 p.m.
nammertime says... #34
kremsers, actually, I welcome games against stronger decks than my own, including CEDH decks. I usually lose, if not almost all the time. It's still fun for me, because I'm playing with what I got. It's David vs Goliath rather than Goliath vs Goliath.
August 7, 2023 3:32 p.m.
nammertime, if that's what you like, that's what you like. Not sure why it's different if they're proxying, though.
August 7, 2023 3:34 p.m.
You're not sure why? You just explained it pretty well in your last post.
August 7, 2023 4:22 p.m.
nammertime says... #37
kremsers, it's different because it feels more authentic. If I had to pick between playing and not, I wouldn't mind proxies, as I mentioned... but I'd prefer not to play against them. I'll reiterate that it's only truly unpleasant if it's a deck full of them or if they made a specific competitive deck but don't even own half the cards.
Yet, this is just my preference. I'd still play against them, and it's that much sweeter if I win. I honestly don't know what you're trying to argue with me.
August 7, 2023 6 p.m.
nammertime, I'm not trying to argue with you. You have your preference, and you're not one of the people trying to say proxy players are less deserving of respect or whatever, so it doesn't really bother me. I'm just asking why it matters to you.
August 7, 2023 9:20 p.m.
nammertime says... #39
kremsers Ah my bad then. I hope I answered properly.
Just a little story here, but when I was a kid, I played with POGs, and they had an ante rule just like Magic (though I think most didn't really play with it). The game itself wasn't very popular for longer than a few months where I lived, but I think any of the kids would have been pissed if people brought proxied POGs lol.
August 7, 2023 10:33 p.m.
nammertime, it's possible the game's longevity could have been increased by cutting the ante rule, which would nullify that issue. Of course, I think the deeper problem was that there were so many other games readily available in the nineties, so the bar for a given game to stick is much higher than it was in the forties and fifties.
August 7, 2023 11:18 p.m.
So many different perspectives. I can't speak too much personally on the whole respect thing. I know I feel a little bit embarrassed at some of the $$ input in my decks.. So I will underplay that & I hope that players don't dwell on my duals or whatever. Even better, I'm playing with someone so new to the game that they have no clue at all.
Fortunately, I just made about $800.00 off selling a bunch of my cardboard so that embarrassment is a little bit eased up. Pretty much anyone I still play with feels like they are at various stages in coming to the same conclusion... for various reasons. I don't come to a table "expecting respect" thank goodness that is not a motivation for me playing the game.
I don't even know what a "real" magic card is anymore. I can't find myself even really caring when there are 30 different arts; anime, rock posters, Warhols. Pandora's box has been opened with all these & since I'm a guy who cares more about function & gameplay I find myself not really identifying what the bar is for authenticity or at least what feels authentic any more.
August 7, 2023 11:52 p.m.
I used to proxy cards I owned but wanted to use in multiple decks, but they never looked or felt as good as the real thing and ended up being disappointing.
Since I've stopped doing this, my decks are more diverse and unique since I don't end up seeing the same cards over and over.
As for things like sol ring, it's so cheap there's no reason not to just get it from the LGS or tcgplayer if they don't have stock.
August 10, 2023 12:11 p.m.
Licecolony says... #43
derbrack. I dunno about "As for things like sol ring, it's so cheap there's no reason not to just get it from the LGS or tcgplayer if they don't have stock." By all means, support your local game stores. Go to events, buy sleeves and boxes, and snacks, and board games. But I'd never buy a $10,000 car, if the same one could be bought for $3,000 with the contingency that I could never bring it to the Indy 500.
Sol ring is $1.44. Assuming I buy a deck where the average card is $1, that's still a $100 deck. And I think that would be considered budget by most. Or I could pay $20 to print the cards on the back of some lands and suddenly I could play any 5 decks I'd ever want to play for the same cost as that budget deck.
God forbid I get tired of my $100 deck, I'm shit outta luck. I have a precon I've upgraded through the years and is now probably around $150. I don't play it anymore.
I much rather play my Tiamat, win by changing opponents' creature types and playing cards like King Suleiman (a $500 deck excluding lands)
Or my Rafiq, win by changing opponent's land color and then swinging in with a big Coiling Woodworm ($300 excluding lands)
Or my Bant reverse-voltron deck that wins by equipping my creatures with Spy Kit, and my opponent's creatures with Pariah's Shield ($300 excluding lands)
Or my Gabriel Angelfire deck that wins with cards like Jangling Automaton ($250 excluding lands)
And lands are expensive. I would argue that my $150 enhanced precon is more powerful than any of those. But dammit if those other decks are far more fun.
My deckbox hold 6 decks. By proxying, I can fill that deckbox with anything I want for the price of my one enhanced precon. Even if I had the disposable income to buy all of those decks in paper sans the lands, it would send me back $1500. The car I been driving for the past couple years is a $3000 manual-transmission burnt-orange Fiat 500 that drives like a jellybean and I love it.
Those purchases can't compare. I could make a 6-figure salary, and I'd still proxy. And I wouldn't care if anyone did too, so long as their cards are recognizable, and they're following the normal social conventions of playing to the power-level of your pod, communicating ahead of time, and not cheating.
If you're a pubstomper, I'm gonna avoid playing with you because you're a pubstomper, not because you proxied your whole deck.
August 14, 2023 12:10 a.m.
Licecolony says... #44
nammertime. Totally agree with you- I would also rather not play against truly unpleasant decks. And I like playing against homebrews. There's plenty of people at my LGS with some wild decks (some more powerful than others). If someone is looking to play a Tergrid deck, there's other people in the store I'm sure would be happy to join in.
I'm gonna go play against Zubera-tribal and mono-blue voltron.
And if you don't want to play against me, that's totally cool too.
August 14, 2023 12:15 a.m. Edited.
Skillville says... #45
The proxy users should just start a movement and gather people to play on notecard / paper-prints so WoTC goes out of business.
Then everyone wins.
August 14, 2023 8:16 a.m.
Licecolony, or make printer-paper proxies, and stuff them in your sleeves in front of a basic land. Then twenty dollars also covers the sleeves, the lands, and a cheap deck box.
Skillville, I just described my kitchen table, so I guess it's already started. The fire rises!
August 14, 2023 9:52 a.m.
Me personally, I do not often use proxies in my deck, but if i do, my goal is to change it into a real card as fast as possible. My friends use proxies a lot. Some Decks of theirs are completely made of proxies. However I do not see a real problem with this. My friends aren't rich (I am neither). So what is the game about? Is it about having fun with your friends? Or is it to destroy my friends with Cards that they can not afford to buy? Wouldn't it be a pay-to-win-game if i would insist on them using real cards? On the other hand I have a lot more fun if the powerlevel of each deck is nearly the same. If my friends do not want to spend this 50 Bucks on a piece of Cardboard, that I am willing to pay, is it their fault or is it mine? Finally I think that the problem is not that there are some Guys that use proxies, it is that there are Guys who exclude other Players from the Game. Make MTG Great again! Let us make it a Mind-Game, not a Money-Game. Greetz.
August 18, 2023 1:53 p.m.
Not every deck should be fully optimized, in fact I think the less so the better in commander. Card prices as a natural soft-limiting factor on deckbuilding is healthy for the game. People have pointed out it's just as frustrating to go against a pub stomper whether they have real cards or not, but wouldn't there be less of that occurring if proxies in general carried a similar taboo?
Maybe it's just me, but the majority of proxy-heavy decks I've faced out in the wild seem to be more abusive on average. To the point where it sometimes makes me regret trying to be nice and playing against them. To me, the use of proxies tends to indicate a desire to win that supersedes the enjoyment of the game itself and the hobby as a whole.
Due to its political and social nature, regular EDH often becomes a situation where the "best deck" becomes the king maker and not the actual winner anyway. I truly feel that people would be less inclined to build anti-social stuff like isochron prison or turbo kinnan if they actually had to collect and own all the necessary pieces for a deck that they might find doesn't make for the most fun games. If you're confident that you like the cards in your collection, you should have no issue playing with them more than once and rebuilding multiple decks using pieces from your collection. Plus there are tons of online resources for deck building and testing if that's what you want to do.
August 18, 2023 3:41 p.m.
wallisface says... #49
derbrack your pains aren’t a symptom of proxies being an issue, but of players not respecting the social balance of the game. Commander in particular is a format where players are expected to discuss the power of their decks beforehand, and provide something appropriate - if that conversation is happening and being adhered to then there should be zero issues.
What you’re advocating is a ”pay to win” scheme, which imo is the absolute worst aspect of the game competitively, and has no right to exist in casual/social games.
August 18, 2023 4:43 p.m.
derbrack, proxy players can still build within a budget. This site is actually pretty handy for doing that.
kremsers says... #1
DemonDragonJ I do think it's possible to be fond of bondage but think it's a weird inclusion in the duel monster card game.
July 2, 2023 9:35 p.m.