What is Your Opinion of Proxies?
General forum
Posted on Dec. 7, 2022, 8:50 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Some player use proxy cards, unofficial duplicates of official cards, either when they do not wish to spend an exorbitant sum of money on an expensive card that they desire, or when they already own such a card, but do not wish to use it in events.
Thus far, I do not have any proxy cards in any of my decks, because I have not needed them, since I do not use any cards that I cannot afford to purchase; however, I have been contemplating possibly purchasing proxies of certain cards to use in my decks, since it is very unlikely that I shall ever enter any WotC-sanctioned events, as I am not a very competitive player. I obviously would not be so cheap as to use proxies of Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, or the original moxen in my decks, but I see no problem with proxies of Sol Ring, as it is now an inexpensive and ubiquitous card, due to numerous reprints, or the original dual lands, as they are powerful, but not game-breakingly so, and are on the reserved list, so WotC shall never reprint them (at least not in tournament-legal form).
What does everyone else say about this? How do you feel about proxy cards?
DemonDragonJ Why, yes, I am in favor of the Reserved List. It's been one of the best decisions Wizards has made, and I'll remain happy for it as long as it exists. Doesn't look like it's going away any time soon
Licecolony "work harder and make more money" isn't elitist bs. It's literally how the world works. Maybe instead of "boo hoo, cards cost MONEY and I don't wanna support the company that's working hard to make them! I want free handouts, waaah!" you could, idk, work for a living so you can afford a measly $100 deck you claim to be so far out of reach. If you really can't afford it, you shouldn't be playing and should be working instead. Just saying :)
kremsers It's not that i am expecting an "edge" over anyone. It's like when the brainless left tried to force a bs "loan forgiveness" plan while not considering any of us who worked hard and paid off our student loans AND we would have to pay off all of THEIR stupid decisions via tax increases. luckily, it got shut down due to some of our governing body having a brain. Same concept here. You work to receive money, and then trade that money for a product. Honestly, how would you feel if you worked your butt off for a home and someone else moves in next door in the same type of home, but for free? Never having to pay rent, never having to pay utilities, but you do. Like every other sane person with a brain, you'd be pretty upset and take action against them. same concept. I don't believe putting money into a hobby gives me any kind of an edge. I worked for it, and thus, deserve every bit of what I own. Why should ANYONE get something they never worked for for free/pennies by comparison?
For anyone griping about how it makes the game "pay to win," despite this just not the case with MTG, you must really not like (checks notes) every aspect of life in general. Quality/quantity of food, water, housing, internet, furniture, software/hardware, you get what you pay for in all of that. If you can't afford it, maybe consider working and earning the money to buy it. It really is as simple as effort=money. Telling me you "can't afford" something or it's "too expensive" reveals to me that you're just lazy and looking for a handout and shouldn't be participating here.
August 18, 2023 6:26 p.m.
wpnmstr23 In my experience, very often, the people who work the hardest make much less money than the people who work the least. I'm not going to throw names around, but "hard work = more money" and "more money = hard work" simply aren't universal truths. Speaking personally, I spent years working seven days a week, up to 16 hours a day, with 80- and 90-hour weeks being an absolute fact. Now, I have what I would call a comfortable amount of money. I would not call myself wealthy at all. But to get to that comfortable-but-not-rich level, I burned myself out. I just about literally broke myself from work: intrusive thoughts, depression, sleep deprivation, self-isolation, the whole fiesta. (I'm glad to say the only lingering scars are bad memories.) How could I have worked harder to make more money? What's the best way to become wealthy while still having a life worth living? Am I simply too weak-minded to be allowed to have as much money as certain other people?
Expanding on that, I believe that at least financially, I wasn't exploited. Other people are. They put in the same hours I was putting in for less reward. Are those people soft, or weak, or lazy? Or are they trying to support themselves without the opportunities and luxuries that other people get?
Anyone can work as hard as they want, but it doesn't matter if they don't make enough to pay the bills. Anyone can have the money to do whatever they want, but if they didn't work for that money (inheritance, lottery, donations, gifts, etc.), what have they contributed?
August 18, 2023 6:48 p.m.
I feel like any topic will eventually lead to overly political, skewed, and self serving takes, but this really blew my mind today. It's a card game...people just want to have fun, play with friends, and have their friends have fun too.
wpnmstr23 what you choose to argue aside, can you please at least come in with a modicum of respect for the other people here who are very smart people who just may have opinions different from yours? You have an opinion, and feel free to say it, but talking down to multiple people is no way to have a discussion. Play what you want, do what you want, think what you want, but maybe just take a minute to edit your tone next time, because honestly, yikes.
August 18, 2023 7:33 p.m.
wpnmstr23, all I have to say about your rant is that Licecolony called it, and you've opened your mouth and removed all doubt. Enjoy getting fleeced by a card game and confusing it with a work ethic.
August 18, 2023 8:11 p.m.
wpnmstr23 - Political discussion, regardless of what the political position might be, is not appropriate content for TappedOut. Please refrain from bringing politics into your posts moving forward.
August 18, 2023 9:45 p.m.
nammertime says... #7
sean360 Quick note, but if you say 'if you have to invest at any level, it's pay to win,' then by your logic, everything is pay to win. If you're not buying licensed product, you're still paying to make your own.
I know it's pedantic, but the way you say it makes it so as well.
Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with proxies or real cards, but in a card game that was made to be collectible from the outset, that's tried to remain so within its lifetime, that's expanded on it in other ways that I may not like, that that that etc, I think it's not too much to prefer to play against other players who happen to appreciate the collecting aspect of the game.
I don't mind playing my non-optimal low-budget deck against a high-budget one and lose. Them's the breaks in my eyes. Others do mind, so they proxy, okay no big deal. It's just unpleasant to bump into someone who has a box full of proxies, and worse, sometimes they're not even nice and/or just printed with text. You can't even recognize the cards, and have to read every single one. At that point, are we playing Magic at all? I'd rather play against myself using two TappedOut Chrome tabs.
August 20, 2023 8:50 p.m.
nammertime, it's never too much to have a preference, but I think a lot of the arguments against proxies are exaggerating (or, as we've seen earlier on this page, inventing from whole cloth) the downsides to proxies. My kitchen table is boxes full of proxies playing against boxes full of proxies, and we're all enjoying it more than we did before we started proxying. Certainly it's still playing Magic, and certainly it's nothing like playing solitaire in two Chrome tabs. We're having an easier time maintaining parity between decks than we did before because the differences between our salaries and bills are no longer a factor, and we're all able to enjoy a more diverse meta because there's very little barrier to trying out a new deck.
I'll grant that mass use of printer proxies makes it harder to read the table at a glance, but I consider that a worthwhile trade, and I've seen commercially-printed proxies that, while clearly not official cards, are just as easy to read as official cards.
Again, nobody is wrong for having any sort of preference, not all of my arguments here are aimed at you personally, and I'm not trying to say you're in some way bad. Anybody who doesn't want to play against proxies should not play against proxies, and everyone will have a better time. I have issues with Hasbro that make me upset to see them get money, and the secondary market absolutely does drive sales for Hasbro even though the money doesn't go directly to them, but if people enjoy collecting cards, I don't grudge them that enjoyment. Play the way you want, and I'll play the way I want.
I'd rather spend that money on buying a new car, buying a new house, buying other games that don't expect a continual income stream from every individual player, buying card sleeves, buying ink for my printer, printing out proxies, and so on. I can still play Magic that way, I'm still legally and ethically within my rights to do so, and I know that, regardless of what some people may believe, I'm going to have just as much fun doing so as all the people who insist you have to buy official Magic cards to have the full experience.
In fact, prior experience in the thread has shown that some people are going to have less fun because they know I'm doing that, and I won't lie: while I wouldn't enjoy making things less fun for someone I'm actually playing with, certain people are staking a certain amount of their enjoyment on the idea that I should have less fun because I didn't pay what they consider to be the fun fee, and spiting them by having unlimited fun regardless feels awesome.
August 20, 2023 9:52 p.m.
nammertime says... #9
kremsers I agree, you shouldn't have less fun because you like to proxy. In fact, if you and your group or people you know prefer to play against each other with proxies, who am I to begrudge you for that? You all accept it, and you all prefer it, so how does that hurt how I play? Why would I care... and so why should anyone else?
Thus, I don't agree with anyone in the thread trying to force you to not use proxies, but in the same vein, I'd rather not play against you myself if all you'll use are proxies. However, some days, I'm just in such a mood to play Magic that I won't care at all, lol. That's how much I love this game, despite all my current (unmentioned) criticisms on how it's being sold and whatnot.
August 21, 2023 2:16 a.m.
nammertime absolutely nothing wrong with you preferring to play with people who also enjoy the collection aspect, all the power to ya. That's the same exact argument I'd make for proxies - It's more fun for me and my friends so it'd how I prefer to play. I wasn't trying to look down on people who don't proxy, just argue against the idea that if you don't buy cards you don't deserve to play. As someone with not a lot of money, and friends with not a lot of money, I've mentioned here that we literally had to choose between proxying or not being able to build new decks in my play circle. I had a friend admit to me they almost quit because they were sick of the one deck they had and couldn't afford to build more.
Also, I agree with your later point, if people want to proxy they need to be neat, clear, legible, and look like the actual card, otherwise the game gets confusing and potentially annoying.
When I say pay to win, I'm just trying to bring in a different view point that there are many of us who love the game, but can't afford to invest in it to match our interest. Thanks to proxies I went from 3 commander decks to 10. The game is a lot for fun for me and mine this way, so I am always surprised to see others talk about how it "shouldn't be allowed" even in casual games. Or like some people earlier in the thread who somehow think my use of proxies reflects poorly on my character/work ethic lol
August 21, 2023 11:07 a.m.
Licecolony says... #11
Totally agree with nammertime; proxies should be recognizable and legible.
August 21, 2023 4:11 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #12
wpnmstr23, please tell me that you are being sarcastic when you say that.
August 21, 2023 9:37 p.m.
I am personally okay with Proxies in select situations. Casual games, EDH and even some LGS Legacy Tournaments allow them and I am okay with this. However, I am not okay with people trying to pass off proxies as real cards. That is very immoral behavior. I am in the process of making a draft cube for '93-'94 MTG that will be made up entirely of proxies of black bordered versions of the cards. I will absolutely not be paying 10s of thousands of dollars on game pieces that could see play wear, but proxies will be perfect for the cube.
Overall, I feel more tournament venues should allow around 10 proxies for expensive cards.
August 26, 2023 7:51 p.m.
Nerdytimesorwhatever says... #14
I think proxies are fine under a few conditions. If decks are constructed with restrictions like your commander must include white + deck is under 200 bucks with the most expensive printings of cards, lets say. That would be excellent to proxy. A deck designed to win at all costs and combat other high level decks is the best scenario for proxies, though.
CEDH is the best place for them. They can destroy a regular playgroup just the same as an overly invested wallet can, except its much easier. Having the primary goal be winning removes a ton of issues, and proxies make it possible for that to be entirely unrestricted.
Proxies are also super useful for representing valuable cards. I have old judge promos, probably around 3-4 grand worth in my Rashmi Draw Go deck, but the ones I play with physically in the deck are the proxies of the real ones that stay in their cases at home.
August 28, 2023 5:53 p.m.
Nerdytimesorwhatever: Forcing people to run white? Now, that's devious!
August 31, 2023 5:04 a.m.
Hypersayia9001 says... #16
Honestly? Do not care. So long as you can prove that the card actually exists and performs as the proxy describes, you can play a whole deck where the art is replaced with doddles your 5-year-old done. You can plonk a "black lotus" in if you like and I'd honestly just be interested in what you manage to do with it.
September 6, 2023 8:05 a.m.
OddQuest12 says... #18
It's fine as long as you put some rules. For example, I do some proxies with some of my deck but the rules I put is: I cannot do overpowered decks (keep it casual), I cannot put too expensive card unless I've already bought them first (so if I want to put a dual land “like underground sea” I have to at least buy it first so it keeps me from doing expensive decks and as my last rule, I keep the price range affordable with the real decks (mostly of my commanders are between 400 and 600 so if I decide to do a proxy EDH It has to be between that price range. Also, you have to inform your playgroup that you are playing a proxy, because not everyone appreciate it and some would prefer for you to play with regular MTG cards.
December 6, 2023 4:09 p.m.
CultureofGaming says... #19
Personally, I don't find them problematic. I travel a lot and like to bring decks. I honestly don't feel like its safe to bring thousands of dollars worth of cards in binders with me. I'd much rather bring some proxies in place of expensive cards.
April 18, 2024 10:28 p.m.
I haven't commented on this thread for awhile, but if I didn't say it earlier; I will say that I like proxies for the mana-base in many decks (regardless of base price)... Particularly RL dual-types, I get some of the argument against that, but (in EDH) I've always seen it as a simplicity, budget, & accessibility thing; moreso than a powerup. Proxying crypts & fast-mana is more of proxy/arms-race issue, but 1:1 mana-base stuff has never bothered me, nor have I really witnessed the former type of proxy pushing any meta to higher power levels. Thus, when it is proxying something like a manabase for enhanced simplicity & it is not really giving much of a leg-up to anyone, I have no issue with that; regardless of if they have originals somewhere. I feel that that stuff is a bit different than proxying a dockside for every recursion/ETB deck or a crypt for every deck in general. Though, on the whole, I think my view on proxies runs more in-line on if the individual "refines/brews" a deck with proxies versus "filling a list" with proxies: both will evidence a higher power level but when you've played enough you can see the difference between a "list" & a "brew".
CultureofGaming has a very practical point too. I remember visiting my LGS & borrowing a deck from someone I loosely knew (that deck was SO foil-blinged), if you included his entire case it WAS life changing money. As the game becomes more $$ infamous/known for the bling, that can easily become more of an issue. A mobile, high-value asset on private owners in sometimes low-security environments, or risk stealing from a local business? Which one is a more logical target??
Tsukimi says... #1
wallisface couldn't have said it better. I feel like almost every complaint against proxies I've read here boils down to "I want to keep the pay to win structure" or "I've put all this money in so others should have to if they want to be able to use cards as good as mine".
If yo need to invest to play at any level, it is pay to win.
August 18, 2023 5:16 p.m.