Why Are Goblins More Popular than Are Dwarves?
General forum
Posted on Sept. 3, 2023, 6:39 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
I saw this post on Mark Rosewater's Tumblr account, and I wonder why goblins are more popular than are dwarves.
What does everyone else say about this? Why are goblins more popular than are dwarves?
wallisface says... #3
For me personally Goblins feel like an easier tribe to make interesting, and do interesting things with. Dwarves comparably feel very boring, and less-broad in thematic breadth.
Dwarves to me always just feel like stocky, short, humans with a whole lot of baggage in the form of stubbornness, and niche/boring mechanic-interactions (i.e caring about vehicles/equipment). Being tied to the colours of and also doesn't fit them particularly well, as it feels a lot more akward trying to tie them into those colours themes of aggro and weenies.
Goblins conversely naturally play into their primary colour of far easier, by intuitively feeling reckless, aggressive, and expendable. Their tropes allow for a wider range of mechanical interactions, and overall they just feel more interesting by not being a short-human.
September 3, 2023 8:17 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #4
I think they’re more-different than humans, which sort of makes them more interesting. The zaniness also helps a great deal. A Goblin Bomb will always be more interesting than a plain-old Dwarven Pony. I do miss the age old rivalry between them, though. The Goblins of the Flarg could probably give you a pretty sizable list of reasons why dwarves aren’t as cool as them ;p
September 3, 2023 9:51 p.m.
I'm going to say it's because Goblins received a lot more focus as the game developed. In the first few sets, they were ferocious monsters. They further became the reckless little morons that remains their main characterization. Whether in Dominaria, Kamigawa, Lorwyn, or Ravnica, a M:tG goblin is instantly recognizable.
Dwarves, on the other hand, received very little characterization. The earliest dwarves from Visions, Fallen Empires, etc. were, as other people said, basically humans, but shorter and with a grudge against orcs. There were no dwarves printed from 1997 to 2001, none from 2003 to 2007, and none from 2009 to 2015. If it wasn't for three cards in Eventide, dwarves would have been out of the game for more than ten years. That's a lot of characterization and development to miss out on, and it was a pretty big deal when they showed up on Kaladesh.
Outside of M:tG, I'm going to suggest that dwarves are generally more popular. Going from Norse and Germanic mythology and folklore, through Tolkien, and into today, dwarves have received more cultural description than goblins. Thinking about it, outside of D&D and M:tG, "goblin" is a pretty generic term for any malicious or mischievous little supernatural creature. I think M:tG is actually the outlier for goblin popularity.
September 3, 2023 11:32 p.m.
wallisface says... #6
legendofa your out-of-mtg popularity assessment isn't entirely true - If we look at games like Warhammer, we see that the Orc&Goblin book was reprinted with updates multiple times and was among the most popular of factions. Conversely, the Dwarven army basically received no love at all, as was among the least updated and least cared-for factions. This is undoubtably down in a large part due to the popularity of each of these factions.
As far as other works, and cultural descriptors, I think that's in part due to Goblins often being portrayed as the villains, a horde of savage and/or petty creatures. Dwarves are often given more historical backstory because these tales are often told from their perspective. I don't think any of this leans into either side being more popular than the other though - just that they serve different storytelling narratives. I think there's definitely an argument for the goblin antics in LotR being more appealing than Gimli spouting nonsense constantly. And Baldur's Gate 3 seems to feature more goblin-relevant scenes than dwarf-relevant ones (as least as far as i've seen).
I feel like its not clear-cut between which species is more popular outside of mtg, but my gut feeling is that it's closer than you think, and quite possibly actually leaning in favor of the goblins.
September 4, 2023 12:35 a.m.
wallisface Okay, I didn't know that about Warhammer. Almost everything I know about Games Workshop comes from a few rounds of the Blood Bowl computer games and the WH40K commander set. I also don't know anything about Baldue's Gate 3 yet. So those might be valid points.
As far as historical storytelling goes, though, dwarves have filled every role from hero to villain to side character to comedic background event. (See the story of Litr at Baldr's funeral.) "Goblin" is generally more of a category than a defined species or culture, and only really got any sort of definition starting with Tolkien. I suspect Snow White and the Seven Goblins would have been a tough sell in 1937.
So I see it as kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy in broader cultural references. Dwarves pretty much always:
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live in mountains
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are skilled in mining and smithing
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are strong and durable beyond their size
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tend to be short
Goblin, outside of some specific franchises, don't have that level of definition. Inside those franchises, they can easily challenge dwarves for popularity. Outside of them, though, I would say they're too broadly defined for a comparison to be relevant.
September 4, 2023 2:48 p.m.
I think dwarves are associated with being extremely devoted craft-persons, mastering skills that a human neither lives long enough to achieve similar skill. In many settings dwarves are the best mortal craft-persons, and I think they are meant to represent the 'noble' skilled trade persons of the world, people who devote endless hours of struggle and strain, if not outright suffering, to get really, really good at something, not so much for their own benefit (because they could do something else and it'd be easier) though they are usually paid. Becoming a craft person is a life of sacrifice, and those who chose it were often known to be difficult/stubborn, if they weren't they wouldn't have succeeded. If you think about history, most people either were skilled or depended on those who were, so myths about such beings would be quite sympathetic.
I think if you consider dwarves to be representative of the trade-persons of old, it's pretty obvious why modern people don't feel the same connection to dwarves, dwarves that would have reminded you of the local blacksmith perhaps are now much more alien, who do these people remind you of if you work in an office and everyone you know has white collar jobs? Dwarves as they originally were presented are insane in their own way (by modern sensibilities), but in a way that is not very marketable, a life of unending toil (and a likely much shorter lifespan) in trades seems horrifying to many people used to an easier life.
Goblins in contrast with Dwarves, at least as presented in MtG, are quite relatable by modern standards. Who's inner child doesn't love Goblin Snowman? Who's inner child still relates to Dwarven Armorer? I mean, mine does, I've always been fascinated by skilled trades. The silly nature of goblins, their insane technology, bonkers lifestyle/sheer impracticality grants them a significant charisma. The artists depicting Goblins likely relate more to the nature of Goblins, while those depicting Dwarves might not have the same connection. Dwarves have some aspects of artistry in many settings, but it's in the furtherance of their skills, making things pleasing to the eye is a task to be considered once you can already make it perfect by every other metric, artists never work in terms of perfection the way engineers get to (this guy aside). You'll be a much better blacksmith if you have artistic ability that you have cultivated, but the fundamental task of blacksmithing is deeply different from most art, much more sweat and pain arguably goes into smithing than painting or singing.
In conclusion, I think the reason Goblins were more popular is a mix of a number of factors, but the shortened version is that it's a lot harder to relate to dwarves now than it used to be, so their weird nature/lifestyle seems alien, both to consumers and to creators. I could be wrong, but I think if more of the WotC employees had trades backgrounds 'back in the day' we would have seen a lot more dwarves, and they'd have probably been more exciting.
In terms of gameplay, I think it's also a potential issue that Dwarves have very little synergy with one another, but Goblins are one of the high synergy tribes that's seen lots of support, there are so many Goblins and most of them care about other Goblins (or fill a role like fast aggro), so if you build a whole deck around Goblins it's going to be a lot more synergistic than one built around, say, Dwarves that came out before the year 2000.
Random point, since goblins usually care about other goblins (this guy aside), if you are building a deck with access to them and Dwarves and only want to throw in a few, does it make more sense to use him with no synergy or this guy?
September 5, 2023 6:17 p.m.
Game_of_Cones says... #9
Dont know if it’s any consolation for you, but at least Dwarves (formed 1983, Chicago USA) were/are an exceptionally good and influential punk band?
September 5, 2023 9:09 p.m.
Because wizards is too lazy to make another cohesive tribe that people actually want
lespaul977 says... #2
Personally, I think goblins come off as more fun because the names, art, and flavor text have historically been hilarious and goofy. Dwarves are generally come across as noble, but MTG makes goblins look like cartoonish idiots who don’t know their rear ends from their elbows. Also, because of this inherent stupidity and silliness, the game has been able to make cards like Goblin Grenade that have mechanics that play into those traits to make for a fun player experience.
September 3, 2023 7:26 p.m.