Why do the Kamigawa Sagas Exile Themselves Before they Transform?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 11, 2025, 11:43 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
I am very displeased that the sagas from Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty exile themselves before they transform, because that prevents them from being able to attack as soon as they transform, unless their controller can grant them haste; consider that a player needs to invest both time and mana into those sagas, I feel that they should be able to attack as soon as they transform, so I would be very interested to learn what everyone else has to say, on this matter.
What does everyone else say, about this subject? Why do the sagas from Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty exile themselves before they transform? I am very eager to hear your thoughts, on this matter.
wallisface says... #3
If the cards didn't exile before flipping, they would likely have to be re-costed to be more expensive to cast. Changing their rules text would leave these cards all looking very different to how they do currently
January 12, 2025 1:28 a.m.
SteelSentry says... #4
Lame answer? Part of it might be so the lore counters get cleared off for paper play. "Modified" was one of the main set mechanics, and sagas would automatically be modified creatures if they still had them. There also might be some rules hitch about how sagas sacrifice themselves when their last ability resolves; it could be solved by changing the rules to check if it's still a saga upon resolution, but exiling and returning has the same effect where that is concerned, barring summoning sickness.
January 12, 2025 7:30 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #5
Omniscience_is_life, wallisface, the player also needs to wait for three turns, in addition to paying mana, so I feel that waiting for three turns is a fair way to balance those cards, akin to how creatures that are cast via suspend have haste, to balance needing to wait for them to enter the battlefield.
January 12, 2025 3:36 p.m.
wallisface says... #6
DemonDragonJ if the card designers really wanted these creatures to be able to attack on flip they would have been given haste. There are balancing and play-pattern issues here which presumably mean these cards are better-off not being able to attack on the turn they flip.
January 12, 2025 3:48 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #7
wallisface, if that is the case, how does WotC justify needing to wait for three turns before the sagas transform, and then one additional turn before they can attack?
January 12, 2025 7:43 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #8
wallisface, also, please do not think that I am being argumentative for the sake of being so; I definitely believe that every point that you have made is a fully valid point, but I wish to be able to have a thorough discussion of this game and how it works, so that I may improve my own knowledge of it.
January 12, 2025 7:45 p.m.
wallisface says... #9
DemonDragonJ keep in mind the only reasons you’ve offered for these cards having effective-haste is ”because you want it”. That in itself doesn’t carry any weight - we can just as easily state that the cards are printed the way they are ”because wotc wants it” (i.e, presenting an idea without any evidence/facts can be dismissed by the same premise).
If you’re wanting to seriously debate why these cards should be printed differently, you need to provide some critical thinking and reasoning as to why this should be the case, beyond your own whims. Without that, I just don’t see the conversation going anywhere or being remotely constructive.
January 12, 2025 8:09 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #10
wallisface, in that case, how does WotC justify suspend granting haste to a creature, but these sagas? WotC openly stated that a player should be rewarded for waiting for several turns to attack with a creature, so why are the sagas any different? Is that because they actually do something on each turn, whereas a suspended card does not?
January 12, 2025 8:17 p.m.
wallisface says... #11
DemonDragonJ the saga can’t just “flip” or it would still have a bunch of lore counters on it, which is just unintuitive and confusing, and any additional rules text on the cards to remove them just adds mess to the card design.
Giving every card haste would also be a very strange design decision.
January 12, 2025 8:25 p.m. Edited.
DemonDragonJ says... #12
wallisface, that makes sense, so I am very glad that you pointed that out, so thank you, for saying that.
Omniscience_is_life says... #2
These cards often transform into creatures that would be way too impactful were they to be able to attack upon transformation, especially in more restricted formats like limited and standard. The fact that you even get a body after the sagas pop is pretty nuts imo, summoning sickness feels like a pretty good balancing factor (especially with having tons of ways to expedite the chapters these days).
I think it's a good thing that the NEO sagas aren't just "do everything" cards--the fact that some of them see play anyway means they're probably in a pretty good place balance-wise, even with this restriction.
It also feels pretty thematic that they get exiled first; transformation that occurs on-field has always felt like a more physical change of a single entity rather than some manifestation of a story or whatever you want to imagine these as, to me.
January 12, 2025 12:15 a.m.