Why so salty?
General forum
Posted on June 9, 2020, 5:55 p.m. by Vash13
Hey there everyone I've been playing Magic for a while now (about 20 yrs) I wasn't around for the black summer or anything, but Necropotence is one of my favorite cards and so many others that players label as "salty" in fact this has become such a prevalent idea that a card could make someone rage quit or even refuse to play with you again that they have created the "saltscore" list(which I refuse to even look at), to me this makes no sense, players call themselves casual players, so by definition winning is not supposed to be important to them, yet they are angry when their $10 wonky deck has a less than 75% win ratio, when I started playing Magic Blue was considered unbalanced and OP in the right hands, therefore I would not play it, I would only win 1 in 10 with MY $10 wonky decks but that win was so sweet and the 9 wins the other guy got were so hollow and brought no joy to their face, in fact MY win would bring more joy to the opponent than my loss just out of witnessing what could be classified as a miracle. If you lost and didn't like it you would go home and build a better deck, or at least one to counter the meta, not rage quit, go on the internet and create the "saltscore" to shame players from enjoying the diversity of Magic(yes part of this was the fact that the internet was still pretty lousy but let's ignore that lol). In an article I recently read the author said "...after all it IS called Magic, not Battle" yet to Wizards and the average person it seems increasingly acceptable to go infinite with damage and tokens(I know a good deal of this is to appeal to a younger clientele who is not familiar with the old days), but build a deck to counter that and people start crying, if this game was just about smashing armies against eachother it would have died a long time ago, Magic is about diversity in playstyle and the luck of the draw, there is no such thing as a perfect deck or a perfect strategy, and that's the beauty, I've played T1 decks where I draw lands 4 turns in a row, when I say "why am I drawing all these lands!" My favorite response has always been "cause your playing Magic...". Well now that I've made my position clear I was wondering what the community thought, is it ok to be "salty"? Or do you agree with me and think we need to start a real conversation about getting away from this mentality and get back to rejoicing in our victories as much as our losses, after all it is just a game :)
Anyways thank you if you read my whole rant and I'd love to hear any thoughts anyone has this is an open discussion and all opinions are welcome
I think that it's ok to have a little salt within a game under the proviso that A) it's in good fun - sometimes you can get a laugh by being salty, and B) it's not transfered between games.
I can understand people being upset about something happening in a game that sucks, we've all been there. That game where you're stuck on two lands on turn 6, despite you having a Cultivate and Chromatic Lantern sitting in your hand. ANdthen somebody says "Geez, you're open, I guess I'll attack you". It's a crappy place to be in and I think it's healthy to not just bottle up frustration (if you're that kind of person). Obviously that still needs to adhere to the golden rule of "don't be a dick".
But where the problem lies is when people either are dicks about it (and I'm sure most of us have had to deal with people being dicks or have been a dick ourselves at points - I know I have and have promply regretted it after), or they decide to carry some arbitrary vendetta between games. What happens in a game should stay in a game, especially if you don't know the other person that well.
We have a small play group of proficient players and we've known each other for quite a few years, so obviously there is some play there. We will rile each other up and give each other crap about stuff, but again, it's all in fun. And the unsaid rule is that you don't get to give it if you can't take it. But again, that's just salt for comedey's sake.
June 9, 2020 7:53 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
I find the passage "yet to Wizards and the average person it seems increasingly acceptable to go infinite with damage and tokens(I know a good deal of this is to appeal to a younger clientele who is not familiar with the old days), but build a deck to counter that and people start crying" to be both inaccurate and also discongruous with the tone of the rest of your wall-o-text.
I agree with the basic premise that there is no reason to get "salty" over the way another player decides to play the game. People also shouldn't say you are "being salty" to try to bully you into playing with them though. If you play against someone and decide that you do not enjoy playing opposite the way they enjoy playing, it is ok to be civil about not wanting to play with them if they are playing decks you don't enjoy playing against. It isn't ok to complain or call what they enjoy doing "cheap" or otherwise try to minimize their skill as a builder or pilot.
June 9, 2020 8:02 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #5
As far as salty cars, generally I'm fine with any card as long as it has a purpose. Someone playing Stasis on a tapped out board and they are able to hold it for 5 turns but have no plan is just annoying.
As far as salty play styles, typically when someone locks out the table and plays solitaire or can take 5+ turns and then not win.
Typically a meta should be relatively the same power level to get the best interactions. However, if one person's deck is cEDH it can be fine as long as everyone is actually able to play or they can just win outright and not waste everyone's time.
June 9, 2020 9:07 p.m.
Lol Gidgetimer your right that was ME being salty about the salt I admit I did put a little extra heat on it
June 9, 2020 9:31 p.m.
Interesting topic. I think we are seeing a lot of "vanishing of the midgame" strategy with a higher prevalence of decks built for the front & endgame only without the inclusion of cards relying on fun interactions in-between. Since Covidtime, playing online I've seen a lot of different types of people. The ones that would make me scratch my head the most are the ones that are super salty about something that has JUST happened to someone else when the previous person took the circumstance without a peep. I do think there are some types out there that rage quit when you are actually winning with a political deck... & that IS being a dick. A good example is a game I played with Marisi, Breaker of the Coil
, where a player was just picking at me all game, then when I had gotten the upper hand and played Fiendish Duo the guy quit before his goaded commander could do 18 commander to another player... This also had the effect of significantly extending the game between me and the leftover guy (which I still won). All I could think about was: boy if you respond this way to Marisi winning, then you've got a salty problem. Players that don't traditionally play unusual strategies should not be so salty when a white-elephant strategy actually wins, & they should keep in mind that rage-quitting can have a comparatively severe impact on a deck that relies on other players as resources.
June 10, 2020 8:48 a.m.
Yeah as you said people seem to have very different reactions to effectively similar tactics, for example if I lock the board with a Magus of the Tabernacle + Winter Orb with an Azors elecutors out I'd recieve much more hate than if I threw down a Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Woodfall Primus even though the later is far nastier and far more difficult to break out of
June 10, 2020 11:07 a.m.
I just came back to make an ammendment to my comment.
So long as there is available interaction I dont think combos, even ridiculous ones are bad.
The ones I do have a problem with are truly infinite, or nearly infinite ones that a person just has to sit through while the other player goes through the steps necessary.
Tempur Reclamation does have this problem right now, if built right a player can literally just draw their deck, drop a Jace and win, all at instant speed. These are not combos that improve any aspect of the game and just serve to drive players away if a deck like this is one of the first they come up against.
There should never be a way to basically gain almost infinite mana, and almost infinite draw at instant speed in my opinion.
These are 2 fundamental aspects of the game that if skewed to such an extent it just makes the person on the receiving end feel as though they handicapped and wondering what the point is.
Sorry if this seems contradictory but the topic of combos has always been hotly debated and I dont see that changing anytime soon.
June 10, 2020 12:09 p.m.
Yeah absolutely, intant speed combos are fairly mean and unsporting, cause even the classic mike trike combo or Phyrexian Devourer shenanigans I've been executing thinking I was being mean but when I get to player 3 in line he says, "thanks for taking the table out for me" then throws a Disallow and proceeds to shred me when I sac the devourer to something like Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
June 10, 2020 4:06 p.m.
RiotRunner789 hey, us stasis players that didn't do anything but maintain stasis for 5 turns had a plan... it was to make you sit there for 20 turns while i played lands and said go... maybe 23 turns... while you sit there hating me wishing death upon me and everyone i know... then win
i can even remember the list by heart
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/22-05-20-casual-stasis/
June 10, 2020 7:21 p.m.
magwaaf...maybe 25 turns...lol but seriously one of my favorite gambits is Necropotence+Venser's Journal pay 20 life then sit there and pass turn till the can muster enough power to keep up with that life gain lol, and if you like a good board lock check out the deck that got me to start this article Welcome to planet Kaitain I poured my heart into this deck only to have people often refuse to play it lol, but that doesn't stop me it's still a beautiful creation and I won't let anything get me down on it or let myself disassemble it cause a couple poor sports called it salty.
June 10, 2020 8:46 p.m.
the best necropotence decks would win on turn 3. Z
turn 1 swamp, ritual, necro turn 2 swamp, vamp tutor, get donate or illusions of grandeur, draw 10-15 cards off necro turn 3 island, ritual, illusions of grandeur. opponent scoops if not turn 4 donate, force of will backup, laugh maniacally
June 10, 2020 8:57 p.m.
Oh yeah I wasn't in Magic yet but I know all about the black summer necro abuse, back then it was far scarier for sure
June 10, 2020 9:23 p.m.
imagine modern if force of will was legal... lol that's the kind of formats we dealt with
June 10, 2020 9:33 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #17
Vash13 I run that Necro-Journal combo with Zur's Weirding- keep spending life so your opponents never draw another card the whole game. And because you don't actually draw cards with Necropotence they can't actually use the Zur's Weirding on you ;)
Had a few players ragequit the game due to that combo :D
June 11, 2020 3:47 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #18
I don't understand salt against effective decks either. Unfortunately, most of my friend group is casual EDH players, while I like trying to do well in Modern and Pioneer. I do play EDH, it's awesome, but my decks are also much better than theirs.
To be fair, there are decks I don't play. I no longer try to bring stupid combos to FNM because they take too long. Goldfishing is boring when you could be deciding wether or not to Remand something, or whether or not to fire off Shock or Opt, or deciding which bomb to take off a Vivien activation. It's the decisions that are fun, and the game gets boring when all you do is counter every single spell.
In fact, I give myself handicaps in some ways because of my preferences. Even if I could afford TS, I'd still play Blackmail. I like Peek, even when I could just run some more interaction. It is hard to justify, though. And I try not to run control, even though that is where I do well.
June 11, 2020 11:09 a.m.
1 - You are missing the point and deviate too much into making fun of people with budget constrains and casuals. Being casual means that when you sit down with your budget deck or your janky deck you expect to at least have a chance to hopefully do the thing you build your deck for. If your opponent wins every game on turn 3 and if not autoscoops, or better yet they lock the board with Winter Orb and expect you to stay there for 30 minutes until they find their win condition, now that accumulates salt in some players.
2 - You can't deny people the right to be angry or salty. They also have the right to not play with you. It is their choice just as much as it is yours to play certain cards.
3 - A bit unrelated but still worth adding. Should bans be made on salt score basis and not playedWR? Absolutely not.
June 11, 2020 3:05 p.m.
Madcookie your absolutley right all of us started somewhere so I dont think any of us intend to ridicule budget constraints, after all I was raised very poor, I didn't even own my own cards for the first 5 or ten years I played magic, then one day as an adult I realized "hey! Now I can buy all that crap I wanted as a kid" lol. To your other point your absolutely right we all have free will and dont need to force people into playing with us, and of course no one wants to sit for 30 min, and do nothing that's just a joke lol, more what I'm getting at is the mentality that magic needs to be played a certain way to be considered fun and its prevalence in the community, cause as an avid deck builder I like to make all my decks different, in fact I strive to have all colors and playstyles available to me in my played decks, and lastly your absolutley right again no way should bans be placed on card cause of some gripes, but I do think it dissuades content creators from making cards that help in "salty" strategies because at the end of the day they are a buisness and they want to sell as many cards and packs as they can.
June 11, 2020 7:18 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #21
I like brewing a lot, but half my decks are just kicked in the nuts if someone resolves t3f. Like, seriously, if I allow them to resolve it I've already lost, and that's from decks ranging from Madness to Delver.
June 13, 2020 11:51 a.m.
TriusMalarky sorry sometimes my MTG slang isn't up to date what do you mean by 't3f'?
June 13, 2020 10:33 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #23
Teferi, Time Raveler, also known as "that one card that means that my Stompy deck will forever be better than my Delver or Peezy or Madness etc lists".
It's a pretty unfair card. It effectively softbanned me from playing the game. I love instant speed stuff -- it can be really intellectually stimulating. But WotC apparently doesn't like instant speed interaction. I guess Blue's identity is egregious Walkers that make it hard for your opponent to play the game, rather than having Cancel and Jace's Ingenuity in hand with 5 open. It's a sad change.
June 15, 2020 8:55 a.m.
TriusMalarky ahhhh yes teferi has just plain got out of control in the last couple sets, I completely agree because he's not just a mean card he is properly unbalanced in the meta and in magic in general, he is ban worthy in my opinion at least in commander, hell I'd consider banning him in a play group for sure, when they make card you have to play to be competitive it's unfair, you and and opponent racing to a Victimize is one thing but just waiting to loose when teferi drops is garbage for sure.
June 16, 2020 2:39 a.m.
golgarigirl says... #25
I admit, I am trying to work on being less of a colossal salt lord...and to be honest, most of it is in response to something I've done or not done. Missed a trigger. Countered something stupid. ETC. That essentially gave up a game I felt was otherwise solid.
In my playgroup (mostly EDH), I've seen a variety of salt from players of all kinds of ages...between incorrect threat assessment (admittedly a hard-won skill), never getting a fair shake of a game due to endless dead draws, feeling like they're always targeted, and incorrect assumptions of rules or how they think rules should work. We're pretty good at communicating what kind of deck we're playing, so we've got ourselves properly girded when someone wants to play their prison or combo deck.
I think it's fine to be salty if you learn from it, learn to let it go, and don't take it out on others. Which is difficult!
June 22, 2020 10:49 p.m. Edited.
golgarigirl Yeah my first commander was a 1 drop so even though the v1 deck wasn't very good I'd get everyone's attention and get squeezed out of games, so I had to make a deck that could take the heat, so I totally understand that, and I think you said that quite well, as long as we learn, cause I have always believed we learn more from our losses than our wins :)
AjMcGamer says... #2
I completely agree with you. I've been playing for about the same amount of time and also remember when people would shake hands, accept their loss and try to find a way to counter what had beaten them, not whine that a card, or deck were overpowered.
Yes there are powerful combos available, the strongest magic users can cast the most powerful spells and those with a greater knowledge of the intricacies of card interaction, phases of a turn, triggers, etc., will be able to take advantage of the available combos. In the same vein though if one looks hard enough a counter to most if not all situations can be found.
June 9, 2020 7:43 p.m.