The Siege Format
The Kitchen Table forum
Posted on July 30, 2015, 4:57 p.m. by Kryzis
I need some help checking these rules and making decklists so that I can edit the banlist and/or rules to make this format better.
I've always been interested in making a custom format, and after a while trying to conjure some idea of what hasn't been done yet, I finally designed the Siege Format.
It is designed around each player with a Tower and Walls, and them laying (and being laid upon) Siege.
This is a multiplayer format, so it is designed to be played with 4 players per game. This format doesn't work well with 1v1 or 2 Headed Giant, so keep that in mind when reading further.
Though I am guilty of using very degenerate ones, combos have been an integral part of EDH (the format that I based this one on), but I kept in mind when building this the idea of trying to limit them as much as possible, so that it could a very combat heavy format. I know this may turn away some people, but I'm trying this out to see if it's possible to make a competitive EDH mutation that isn't dominated by combos.
1 General, 1 Tower, 5 Walls
General- Legendary Creature, in command zone
Tower- Legendary Land
5 Walls- any arrangement of Basic Land cards
The library is 100 cards, may contain up to 4 of each card, except there can't be any additional copies of the General in the Library. The cards in the library must follow the color identity rule of EDH, and Walls and Towers must only be able to tap for colors in the General's color identity.
Follows the EDH banlist.
Start play with Tower and 5 Walls in play.
Start at 65 life. For each 10 life lost, a Wall of your choice is put into a separate pile from exile, graveyard, or library, and can't be returned to any other zone. If an effect would tap, untap or flip Towers or Walls it is ignored for Towers and Walls. Life gained doesn't return Walls. The Tower remains in play the entire game and in no way can leave.If you go to 0 life (except for explicit cards like Lich) you lose the game.
Tower and Walls can't be the target of spells or abilities, are indestructible, can't be sacrificed, and can't be exiled.
Walls and Towers can be tapped for mana on your turn. Each tap of a Wall or Tower for mana counts as playing a land (and triggers Landfall). If a card would allow you to play multiple lands per turn (Exploration), you may tap a Wall or Tower instead. If your Tower has an activated tap ability, it may be tapped without counting as playing a land. If your Tower has an activated ability that isn't a tap ability, it may be activated any number of times, but only on your turn.
Each player starts the game with a Start Siege Emblem in the command zone.
Turns proceed as normal (with the emblem in play). At the beginning of a player's combat step they may declare Siege on another player. Whenever Siege is declared, the declaring player removes any Siege Emblems they own from the command zone and get a Declarer Siege Emblem.
Whenever a player has Siege declared on them, they get a Defender Siege Emblem.
Getting a Siege Emblem and/or losing a Siege Emblem doesn't go on the stack and can't be responded too. Priority is never passed. The player that declared Siege can only attack the player that they declared on.
Declaring Siege counts as an activated ability, and goes on the stack. It can't be countered.
At any time during their turn, a player in a Siege may concede. This starts a game state check, and can't be responded to. The triggers from the Siege Emblems resolve during the game state check and can't be prevented.
If a player has one or more Defender Siege Emblems in their command zone, they can't declare Siege on another player.
Note: a player may have multiple Siege's declared on them. If a player declared Siege on another player, then had Siege declared on them, the other Siege they declared still goes on until one of the first two players concedes, or the second one ends and the first player that declared can attack again.
Siege Emblems:
Start: Your opponent's can't target you or permanents and spells you control. You can't attack .
Declarer: You can't play spells. You may only attack the player you declared Siege on. If you win the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and take two additional turns after this one. If you concede the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and skip your next two turns.
Defender: You can't play spells. If you win the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and take two additional turns after this one. If you concede the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and skip your next two turns.
The General starts the game in the command zone like EDH.
Unless it has Flash or can be cast as though it had Flash, the General can only be cast during your main phase, except when you have a Defender Siege Emblem, in which you can cast it as though it had Flash.The General doesn't go back to the command zone if it dies, is exiled, or is put into the library.
If a General would deal combat damage to a creature, that creature is exiled. If a General would die during combat, it is exiled instead of going into the graveyard.
For each 5 damage dealt to a player with a General, one of their Walls is destroyed. If a General deals 5 combat damage to a player without any Walls left, the defending player loses the game.
Note: if the defending player has one Wall in play, and you deal 10 General damage, you win. The check for loss of Walls triggers for 5 life, and if there is additional damage dealt, that game state is checked after.
You need an emblem in order to attack, which you get by declaring Siege on another player. And it's only possible to attack one player at a time. Is there anything you think I can try to clean up so that it's eaier to read?
July 30, 2015 5:52 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Well as it stands:
After losing the initial siege emblem (possibly through no fault of your own) there is no way to get it back.
There is nothing to stop someone from declaring siege on the player that just conceded a siege. This means to play anything that player would have to skip 2 turns to get rid of their siege emblem. During which time they will have siege declared again I'm sure.
"Monogreen ramp" with a BUG or 5 color general for tutors with Dark Depths seems too good. Mirror Gallery and Crucible of Worlds allows Vesuva copies of Depths for the Legendary flyer at a rate of 1/turn. With green ramp this could happen as early as turn 4 or 5 when no one is prepared to mount a defense against Marit Lage.
Disincentivizes running removal since during the normal interactive portion of the game you would need to skip 2 turns and give someone 2 turns in order to cast any spells.
July 30, 2015 6:24 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
I forgot Vesuva got the counters the fact remains that in a hard ramp shell you can pop out flyers too damn fast with always having access to a legendary land.
July 30, 2015 6:26 p.m.
Good point, Dark Depths should be put on the banlist of Towers.
July 30, 2015 6:31 p.m.
Dark Depths doesn't work as a tower. You can't sac the tower, thus marit lage won't come into play.
July 30, 2015 7:04 p.m.
Just ban Vesuva then. That card seems way too broken anyways.
July 30, 2015 7:07 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #10
So ban a good piece of utility because it enables instead of the actual problem. Seems legit.
July 30, 2015 7:12 p.m.
Voltron's extremely strong. Kytheon, Uril, Isamaru, etc. can all be played early, given Swords, hexproof, indestructiblility, then you WoG, seige and win. TBH, the format as a whole seems relatively easy to break.
July 30, 2015 8:35 p.m.
For how complicated it is it doesn't seem much more fun than regular EDH. Not to mention gaining 2 free turns AND knocking 2 turns off of your opponent seems unbalanced as fuck considering they already got the shit beaten out of them in a Siege. They basically just lose.
It just seems really complicated for virtually no reason.
July 30, 2015 9:47 p.m.
If I siege you after a turn 1 Goblin Guide, and you concede because well, you can't cast spells and you haven't even gotten a turn yet, then not only do I get two additional turns, you lose two turns, so it will feel like I've received four turns since the last time you were able to take a turn. By then, I'll have 5 lands in play and you will still not have gotten a turn.
Winning a siege should advance your resources. Perhaps you should gain a wall. Losing a siege should lose you resources, not turns. You should lose a wall if you lose a siege.
It also shouldn't be too difficult to come back after losing a siege. The idea of declaring attackers and defenders is pretty cool, but because you can't cast spells during that time, it's too easy to blindside an opponent with a board state that they clearly can't compete with. Look at Zealous Conscripts. As soon as something like that goes off, you can declare siege against that player and that opponent is going to lose that siege 95% of the time.
Also, there's a lot of time spent not casting spells. If it's about to become your turn 5, and you're ready to cast your 5-drop, but someone sieges you, then you become a defender and can't cast spells. Now on your turn, and on subsequent turns, you will not be able to cast your 5 drop. If you can't compete, you might lose the war and lose 2 turns, which in a 4-player game is a very long amount of time. Then, and only then, after those 2 turns, if you weren't declared as a siege target, you may now cast your 5 drop... about 4-5 turns after you originally thought you were going to cast it.
Being honest, you have to allow players to cast spells, at the very least... noncreature spells during siege. Without the ability to disrupt like that, there's going to be a lot of hyper aggro bullshit early game.
With those two major changes, you won't have to worry about the turn queue getting muddled up into a mess, and while players might not have very much defense on board, they might be hiding defenses in their hand in the form of cards like Fated Conflagration or Doom Blade. Even if it were just instant speed spells, it would help sieges be a little bit more fair.
July 30, 2015 11:36 p.m.
You have it backwards -Logician. The person declaring the Siege can't play spells. The person defending can, and that makes it a lot more balanced.
July 30, 2015 11:51 p.m.
Kryzis I thought neither player could cast spells. I quote you exactly:
"
Declarer: You can't play spells. You may only attack the player you declared Siege on. If you win the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and take two additional turns after this one. If you concede the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and skip your next two turns.
Defender: You can't play spells. If you win the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and take two additional turns after this one. If you concede the Siege, remove this emblem from the command zone and skip your next two turns.
"
July 31, 2015 12:10 a.m.
RussischerZar says... #16
I guess the Defender one is a typo and should read "You can't attack."
cjk191997 says... #2
wth did i just try to read
you have to somehow get an emblem to defend or attack? I don't understand
July 30, 2015 5:46 p.m.