Cut Sire of Insanity for Elesh Norn MB? (reanimator)
Legacy Deck Help forum
Posted on June 20, 2017, 7:07 p.m. by abby315
Legacy players!
I've built B/R Reanimator (NEED 4 T1 GRISELBRAND) and having done a lot of testing & after watching the GP, I suspect Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is a better 10th Reanimate target than either Sire Of Insanity OR Iona, Shield of Emeria in the main.
The rise of sultai Leovold decks, DRS decks, Delver, and Elves makes her seem a better choice as a one sided boardwipe. More importantly, though, I feel that tempo decks (Delver) mean that being both disrupted T1 AND pressured early is common.
I've been in many situations now where a t3 Griselbrand was not going to cut it, especially if it was with Reanimate.
I've also been in and seen many situations where disruption as simple and ubiquitous as a Baleful Strix stalls for like 4 turns.
Elesh Norn stops pressure from DRS and Delver creatures, and clears Baleful Strix. She stabilizes instantly, unlike Iona, and vigilance means she can pressure and protect, unlike Iona.
Thoughts? (May seem trivial but I'm talking, like, bringing this list to a GP)
GlistenerAgent: yes--but I'm talking about bringing in Norn as a hedge against the games where I can't get a t1 or t2 Gdaddy, either because of disruption or bad hands. Disruption coupled with cheap creatures, as in the popular Delver build, can punish all but the nuttiest hands, especially on the draw.
In those cases, when testing, I found reanimating Griselbrand to not be enough, because I would be at low enough life from attacks and Reanimate (even like turn 3-4) that I can't refuel my hand without being vulnerable to bolt, and because I can't pressure my opponent's life because I'd die on the crack back.
Iona doesn't do anything to stabilize the board, she only protects Griselbrand. I found myself needing a card to get back in the game, and Tyrant didn't do that, either. Norn does. Then she can buy me draw steps to get another shot at Griselbrand, plus vigilance pressures the opponent's life total quickly without being vulnerable.
Basically, I'm asking for advice on how to improve my chances on the games where I don't t1/t2 Gbrand and get very ahead, because to be honest, those games are mine to throw away in the first place. My guess is that Elesh Norn improves those odds.
Also, I currently side into Norn vs Dredge, Shardless/midrange sultai, both delver variants, burn, and D&T. Only the last runs Path (and I bring in Archetype to fend both that and Karakas off).
June 20, 2017 8:52 p.m. Edited.
GlistenerAgent says... #4
I'm not sure what disruption will stop you from putting Griselbrand into play but allow Elesh Norn. I see your argument for having a stabilizer, though.
If the goal with Elesh Norn is to clear the board if you can't reanimate on the first few turns, you basically need your opponent to have a sizeable board but no disruption for your reanimation or a kill of their own. Those circumstances seem somewhat uncommon.
In all honesty, I am not sure. I am parroting the advice of a friend who has lots of 5-0s and other results with BR and similar decks. If you've got a free slot, it can't hurt to have access to the card.
June 20, 2017 10:02 p.m.
GlistenerAgent I appreciate the feedback! I don't mean to come off dismissive, just having a hard time articulating the games I've been running into trouble with. You're definitely right with the second paragraph, those games with resolved DRS are almost always unwinnable (though I run mainboard Collective Brutality which helps).
I'm actually only basing this question on a couple instances of the same play: I can make a probable second Reanimation attempt after my first is foiled, but am now at a low enough life and facing enough creatures that Griselbrand won't save me. I think this situation wasn't quite as common with Miracles in the format thanks to Terminus disincentivizing go-wide.
Since FoW is so taxing on the hand and the tempo-based decks can only run so much permission, it also isn't uncommon for myself and the opponent both to be topdecking in the midgame, once an early Reanimation play was countered by combinations of Daze and FoW. In that case their mana and card-lite threats like Delver and Baleful Strix tax my life even as I struggle to put together a second Reanimate attempt.
The other situation is when I have a resolved Grisel sitting around, facing a Baleful Strix or dead-on-crackback board, and I'm at too low of a life to use his ability. Then the board stalls and the game goes long, and this deck doesn't win long games. This literal situation cost a guy on camera a win at the GP (the U/B version I think). Though Collective Brutality could've been an out that he wasn't mainboarding.
In the above situation I think I'm supposed to reanimate Tidespout Tyrant, but he's much more reasonable to remove (needing only Dismember or a block + bolt, etc) and it often takes the rest of my cards in hand to reanimate a second time, since there's no card advantage. He also ends up stranded in my hand some amount of the time from earlier Grisel-draws without a discard outlet.
I really don't know. Definitely still learning the deck, but voicing an intuition. Most decks nowadays cut Sire for something else, generally Iona, but I've seen a few lists that do bring in Norn or something like ol' Jin Gitaxias. Thanks for the help though.
GlistenerAgent says... #2
Your first reanimation target will always be Griselbrand in the dark. After you put him into play, only combo decks can beat you. The best way to stop them is Iona.
Lots of decks you would put Elesh Norn into play against have Swords to Plowshares. Iona keeps that from happening, and still makes it tough for them to win most of the time.
In general, you just don't need Elesh Norn once you have Griselbrand in play, and frequently he is just better to put into play even when your opponent has a bunch of Elves or something.
June 20, 2017 8:15 p.m.