Wanting to get into Legacy, so I made this list. Please tell me your opinions on it!
Legacy Deck Help forum
Posted on May 2, 2016, 4:53 a.m. by TranscendingAll
TranscendingAll says... #3
Thank you for your opinion, however I don't understand how its disorganized considering its basically a U/W/R delver list with B for thought seize instead of R for bolts.
May 2, 2016 7:45 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #4
The hand disruption doesn't help the delver plan as you lack extra tempo (read bolt/goyf drs or some combination) the daze makes casting tnn and sfm and bigger pain. Add to that the fact that the deck has cut lots of the u/w haymakers (jtms) to have a faster clock early, but doesn't stand to gain a lot. On the flip side; running white over green doesn't net you a lot in regards to playing a delver list. You now have stoneforge, a card that while more versatile than goyf requires other cards to be good and an extra turn to start with the beats. You also trade other common delver cards (mongoose, young peezy, drs or what ever) to run sfm and TNN, both of which don't synergize well with a fast tempo plan. I don't mean to sound rude but just cramming legacy staples in 3 colors without reasons won't end up well for you.
May 2, 2016 8:39 a.m. Edited.
TranscendingAll says... #5
I don't mean to sound rude but you assume a lot and seemed to of failed reading the description of the deck entirely and to of missed the goal of the deck completely.I like the midrange SfM decks so the deck is designed to have early tempo and be able to have a good midrange game while being able to bounce back with Batterskull/Jitte ( Just like the U/W/R delver lists.) Adding white also gives access to the best creature removal spells in legacy. StP and also CJ possibility in the SB for extra removal if needed, or even PtE. I decided to run black over red because I noticed often times people end up holding bolts for awhile trying to decide if they should increase the clock or bolt the next creature that is played and is useless against fatty creature decks. So I thought doing something more proactive/versitile (selected discard) that also nets you perfect information would be better than splashing red for bolts even if it reduces my clock slightly. Which is okay since the deck is suppose to be a versatile midrange deck anyways. Having black also could have the zombie fish which seems to have proven its place in the grixis builds or even Bob since most delver lists don't actually have anything to generate card advantage besides SfM replacing itself in the jeskia builds. Idk about you but I think having a mini Progentis alone can steal you games and is so much more versatile than goyfs.( Also running a few extra lands just for more consistent 3rd land drop. Also gives +2 shuffle effect for less chance of brain lock. Plus the deck is mainly 1 drops. Allowing it to run on 1-2 mana quite easily. Since you don't have to drop TNN. However the amount of resilience TNN is rediculous.) Not to mention how weak goyfs are to removal and graveyard hate. I want something that is going to make them scramble for a way to get rid of it instead of I'll just snappy and STP it next turn. Having a jitte against elves game one is almost a garenteed win and a lot of other decks for that matter. And being able to have a flying or unlockable jitte is quite awesome. I do agree it might be better to run Spell Peirce over daze but being able to drop a threat turns 1-3 with back up is essential to any delver list. Your constructed criticism is appreciated :) regardless of what is said since we are trying to figure out what is right. Not a egotistical battle of who's right.
May 2, 2016 11:22 a.m.
Have you looked into 4-Color Delver? Here, here, and here are some examples.
I think there's a strong case for playing only green for Deathrite Shaman and swapping out the red for Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares.
May 3, 2016 6:01 p.m.
TranscendingAll says... #7
I'm not going to lie, I love the idea of the one mana planeswalker. I just thought that if I add DrS then I might as well make a DeathBlade deck or maybe even BUG Delver. Idk what are your thoughts on that?
May 3, 2016 6:43 p.m.
@TranscendingAll: They're all good decks. I'd probably just stick to what you have, cutting Inquisition of Kozilek (it doesn't hit some really-god-damned-important Legacy cards, like Sneak Attack, Force of Will, Natural Order, or Jace, the Mind Sculptor) and a single True-Name Nemesis.
You could probably get away with cutting 2 lands for Hymn to Tourach, Spell Pierce, Cabal Therapy, or Gitaxian Probe, since Deathrite Shaman helps your mana base. That way you're still flipping Delver of Secrets Flip consistently.
May 3, 2016 11:49 p.m.
TranscendingAll says... #9
@sylvannos: yeah kozilek was one of the things I was concerned about. But I didn't know what else I could put in there to keep the discard/perfect information consistant. Since Therapy is a really hit or miss card and I was really considering hymn but it doesn't give me the info that would be amazing to have all the time. Probes could fill the spot and would add more blue cards for FoW. But since people can get away with Abrupt Decay I figured I could get away with Kozelik.
May 4, 2016 1:14 a.m.
Abrupt Decay sees a lot of play in Legacy because it's uncounterable. Being able to stop Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void is worth the restriction on CMC.
Cabal Therapy is something that rewards knowing the format. Most of the time, you're naming Force of Will if you're going in blind, or a removal spell. You generally play it with Gitaxian Probe for more goodies.
Spell Pierce or Hymn to Tourach might be your best bet since you'd have trouble finding 4 slots for Gitaxian Probe on top of slots for Cabal Therapy.
May 4, 2016 6:33 a.m.
TranscendingAll says... #12
Yeah true that, it will defiantly take some testing to figure out what will work for this concept I'm trying.
May 4, 2016 6:37 a.m.
incarceratedGeneticist says... #13
Question: if your hand is Delver, Stoneforge, TNN, Thoughtseize, and some land, what turn do you play Thoughtseize?
May 9, 2016 1:09 a.m.
incarceratedGeneticist says... #14
Note: I meant if that was your opening hand, what order would you play them out assuming you had perfect mana. Another thing I noticed: Delver of Secrets and Swords to Plowshares in the same deck. This doesn't seem good. I play Delver in modern and would not run STP if it was legal.
May 9, 2016 1:33 a.m.
TranscendingAll says... #15
Well since the deck is almost like the U/W/R delver lists. I know STP works with those creatures. And wouldn't you want to play the best creature removal in legacy? Those cards with no counterspell back up. Depends if they mulliganed or not. If they did then I would thought seize first. If not then depends what I'm trying to accomplish. I could try and jam delver out first turn and it wouldn't be that big of a loss since you have SfM in hand already, and getting them to use counter/removal on the delver would be great. I would probably thought seize first in the first 2 turns so that way I would know if I could stick a threat or not. Either way the goal is to get SFM, probably into a jitte in case of removal and because you have the TNN already.
May 9, 2016 3:56 p.m.
incarceratedGeneticist says... #16
Ok I can concede the STP debate. But given your reaction to that hand I would like to point out that while EndStepTop's assertions that the deck's strategies don't work well together was largely unsupported, so was your statement that the deck has both early game tempo and a good midrange game. Your tendency to treat Delver as bait and considering not playing it on turn 1 shows you prefer the Stoneforge strategy, while a more tempo/aggro player would cast it T1, Stoneforge T2, and maybe Thoughtsieze T3 when you have some spare mana. Either route ignores the potential of some of the cards to be good and would just prefer some cards to change into others to fit it better. I just really don't get what does make this different from a deck where somebody stuffed Delver into a Stoneblade list because they heard it was a good card.
And as for your comments about Lightning Bolt, I think you're underestimating it. Holding Bolt is often a good play. Just because you're not actually casting the card doesn't make it bad. In the end, whether you play it out or hold it for a creature comes down to how good you are at playing Magic, and how good a judge you are of the various factors that will affect your decision.
Its also more versatile than I think you give it credit for, especially when compared to Thoughtseize and Inquisition. It is an instant and can be used both as a removal spell and a way of speeding the clock. Thoughtseize has its subtleties but mainly its in deciding what to pick, not in terms of choosing to target player or creature, or casting it as a response. I think they both have their uses, Bolt being better in a tempo deck that possibly lacks efficient removal at 1 mana, and Thoughtseize in a more grindy deck that doesn't mind spending a turn to cast it.
May 10, 2016 2:11 a.m.
TranscendingAll says... #17
Lots of delver players will use it as bait.Its not about making the agrro play, its about making the right play. That hand that you stated doesn't have any counter spells to make it stick. So you might as well play with what you got and try and make it stick with the thought seize or use the delver as bait and the thought seize to try and get your SFM to stick. I don't know what's so hard to understand about a esper delverblade deck. It is more build around delver than SFM. You can tell by the sorcery/instant count. You have cheap effient threats backed up by free counter magic. Proactive discard which is essentially removal/counter spells while netting yourself perfect information so you can make the right lines of play. Along side StP for when you have a pesky creature to deal with that got through discard and counter spells.
May 10, 2016 4:12 a.m.
incarceratedGeneticist says... #18
Because Stoneforge is a lot slower than Delver. Compare to BUG Delver, where you have Goyf and Bolt instead of SFM and STP. Compare to normal Deathblade, where you get JTMS and more counterspells. I wouldn't say that the strategies are mutually exclusive, but they certainly aren't synergystic.
May 10, 2016 3:52 p.m.
TranscendingAll says... #19
Which is exactly why it works. Delvers for early tempo and stoneforge for midgame/late. The jeskia delver lists demistrate this quite nicely.
May 10, 2016 5:12 p.m.
incarceratedGeneticist says... #20
checks jeskai delver listslooks at decktechchecks jeskai delver list againreads primer
'In the past people have debated that this is not the most efficient mix of cards, as Swords to Plowshares gives back life you want to take away with Delver of Secrets'
'But this is exactly why this deck is relevant; it can play the role of the tempo deck, but later transit more easily into a mid-game deck, should your tempo plan fail'
'Stoneforge Mystic: This card doesn't actually fit the tempo build.'
Oh dear... we appear to be going through the same debate as the creators of Jeskai Delver. I wasn't incredibly familiar with that deck and in Esper colours it just confused me.
Something I found interesting was the occasional use of Gitaxian Probe in those lists, seeming to echo your use of Thoughtseize and IOK for perfect information.
The only other changes as far as I can see are bolts for hand disruption. Interesting. I'll consider this.
May 11, 2016 3:56 a.m.
TranscendingAll says... #21
Yes I do agree the some of the cards don't synergize. Which is why you have your SFM package so you can out last them. The deck as a nice balance of offense and defense, giving you the ability to adapt to your current situation with the plus side of not having to side board against combo decks. Giving you more room for the match ups that you do need to SB for. Which I honestly don't know what those matchups would be.
EndStepTop says... #2
Either cut delver/daze and run a stoneblade list or cut the black splash and play a delver list. Mashing the two archetypes together really doesn't net you any advantages and just makes the deck disorganized.
May 2, 2016 7:32 a.m.