A couple of ideas on how to shake up Legacy.
Legacy forum
Posted on Aug. 4, 2015, 8:33 p.m. by KillDatBUG
Ban Brainstorm. That card is way too strong, and has also killed deck diversity (GP Kyoto had the full 64 copies in its top 8).
Ban Sensei's Divining Top. Miracles has been the best deck for far too long now, and Top is one of the main reasons why. It's overpowered, AND it slows down games. Hell, BOTH of the most recent GP events have been Miracles mirrors.
Reprint all the expensive Legacy staples. Why? Because price point is probably the main reason why more people don't play Legacy. Also, a "Legacy Masters" wouldn't hurt the secondary market that much (Or at least, that's what I think).
What do you guys think? Which ideas are good and which are bad? Do you guys have any more ideas? Let me know.
EndStepTop says... #3
I actually lold. Best mtg satire in a long time.10/10
August 4, 2015 8:39 p.m.
I'd love to see Wizards do this. Then I'd be even more excited to finish up Stoneblade.
August 4, 2015 8:41 p.m.
REPRINT Brainstorm In BATTLE FOR ZENDIKAR!!! PLEASE WIZARDS PLEASE!
August 4, 2015 8:42 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #6
There are a lot of these threads floating around lately. Or is it just Too Expensive Tuesday?
August 4, 2015 8:44 p.m.
KillDatBUG says... #7
"there are a lot of these threads floating around lately" - CanadianShinobi
Where are they? Certainly not in the Legacy forum of this website, and as far as I can tell, certainly not anywhere else on this website. Are they somewhere else? By all means man, I've love to see some recent discussions on the ideas I brought up.
August 4, 2015 9:01 p.m. Edited.
Or, not. We could also just not ban things, and certainly not reprint cards that have been designated as "reserved". I'm honestly getting extremely sick of all the "shit is expensive, reprint it NOW" threads. There are plenty of us (literally thousands) who have invested in these expensive cards to play the game. Why should you be exempt? Why do you want to just screw over all the current players to help yourself? I'm sorry, I just have no sympathy for that attitude. If you don't have the cash, don't play Legacy. You can play Limited, Standard, EDH, even Modern. But don't go screwing with other people's investments.
August 4, 2015 9:06 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #9
Let us discuss each of your ideas.
It is debatable if Brainstorm reduces deck diversity. Deck and color diversity are not the same thing. There were 64 copies of Brainstorm in the top8 but there were also a huge variety of decks. There were 6 different decks in the top 8: 2 Omni, 2 Miracles (they were very different builds), ANT (possibly Grinding Station), UWR Delver, 4c Delver, RUG Delver, Stoneblade. GP lille had an even more diverse top 8: 2 Miracles, Infect,2 Loam, Lands, 2 4c delver. Both of the top 8s had a variety of combo, control, tempo and prison.
I don't agree that it is overpowered but your other points are valid.
That is a huge think to ask of WOTC and has more ramifications that are immediatly obvious. Logistics are complicated and what about people who have invested?
August 4, 2015 9:07 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #10
I'm convinced people who say Brainstorm kills diversity don't actually play legacy. Brainstorm goes into dozens of different decks. Delver variants, Miracles, a variety of combo decks are just some of the decks that run Brainstorm. They're all diverse amongst themselves, even though they all run Brainstorm.
August 4, 2015 9:09 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #11
KillDatBUG if you look at any ban discussion on MTGS or the Source you will see brainstorm ban discussion. Additionally many people have written articles about the topic.
August 4, 2015 9:09 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
Please see the recent Goyf thread for a starting point on #3.
August 4, 2015 9:09 p.m.
I will add that some people more qualified than I have said that Brainstorm does hurt deck diversity in Legacy. However there is a sort of "gentleman's agreement" to not ban Brainstorm in Legacy since it is a "fun card" thay you can't take advantage of in any other format. See Vintage where the cantrip of choice is Preordain since Brainstorm and Ponder are both restricted.
August 4, 2015 9:12 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #14
lordoftheshadows look up the miracles primer on mtgsource. Top itself doesn't directly make games go long. Novice players who don't know what to find, players who are guilty of slow play and the durdly nature of miracles are caused that lead to long games.
August 4, 2015 9:12 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #15
I have played miracles and Top does extend the length of the game. Normally that wouldn't be a problem but players who are inexperienced with it make it take too long. Miracle's ability to go long comes from their ability to find exactly the spells they need rather than play more win conditions. Because miracles has the ability to find a win condition whenever it leads to less win cons which leads to longer games.
August 4, 2015 9:15 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #16
kmcree just to be contrarian here: why should your collection be guaranteed the worth you spent on it? Why should anyone be denied access to an entire format so that some day you can possibly make profit on some poor sucker?
I don't agree with op at all by the way. Just don't like that sort of thinking
August 4, 2015 9:21 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #17
However, if anything will get people into legacy it'll be the removal of the dual lands from the list. I support that shrug
August 4, 2015 9:27 p.m.
Well, first of all, we're talking largely about cards on the reserved list. So my collection's value should be guaranteed because Wizards has pretty much stated that is. To go back on that would be a huge violation of trust, and would be extremely damaging to many of MTG's most loyal players.
As far as profit, that's really not what I'm looking for. I'm not interested in profiting off of my investment, I bought the cards because I wanted to play, and I enjoy playing. But what bothers me is the people who want to just show up and play Legacy, without putting the time or money into it. I literally dropped 3 grand on cards to play Legacy. What makes someone else think they should just be able to buy the same cards for $300 because they want them? Its an issue of entitlement, and its honestly a problem in all facets of our culture today, not just in MTG. Not everyone can afford to play Legacy, and I get that, and I'm sorry for those people. But that doesn't mean those of us who can, and do pony up that cash should be punished and have our collections devalued.
August 4, 2015 9:30 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #19
I understand that sentiment and to some degree i even might agree but the attitude I'm reading here is that paying the money makes you feel more entitled and possibly even better than people. I find that kind of sad in a way. I could be misreading though. It is the internet after all
August 4, 2015 9:38 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #20
Final thought: anyone concerned with the price of legacy should just hop on mtgo where the list doesn't apply and you're more likely to get games in anyways
August 4, 2015 9:42 p.m.
I'm not saying I'm entitled or better than anyone else. What I'm saying is that Legacy has a high price tag. That's just a fact. And I, along with thousands of other players, have been willing to pay that price tag for years. Now, newer players want to play the format and just skip out on the price tag. I don't think that's fair to those of us who have willingly paid for the cards. Playing Legacy isn't a right, its a privilege. If you don't want to pay for the cards, there are plenty of other formats you can play.
As far as the duals, I couldn't disagree with you more. If someone really wants to play Legacy on a budget, they can absolutely build the decks and substitute shocks for duals. I myself did it for quite some time. Now, its certainly not ideal, and your deck will not be as strong, but it won't be the end of the world. You can also find other creative ways to work around the issue, like fewer duals and more fetches, or running a deck that doesn't need as complex of a land base. But again, to screw over the thousands of players who have willingly purchased those duals is wrong.
August 4, 2015 9:51 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #22
I can agree to disagree on the duals there. We're not seeing it the same way and i don't expect we will ever. That's alright. I do agree legacy is an expensive format. Hell even modern can be depending on what you play. It happens. That's why i encourage people to just play mtgo if they can. Lets you skip a lot of the buy in without damaging collections
August 4, 2015 9:54 p.m.
UpsetYoMama says... #23
Price isn't as much of an issue for me. When I get bored enough of Modern and want to get into Legacy, I will. I respect those who have spent time and money to invest in the format.
The interesting thing for me is this: if Wizards never reprints things such as dual lands, then Legacy will eventually die, even if it is a hundred years from now.
Cards get lost, damaged, and eventually played to the point that they become unplayable. There will not be enough cards around for players to have the cards that they need.
Should it just be an online format at that point? Or should they somehow reprint them? Perhaps they should have a fixed MSRP so that cost doesn't decrease as much. Or maybe Wizards would only print so many a year. I don't envy the Wizards people trying to solve that dilemma.
August 4, 2015 9:56 p.m.
notamardybum says... #24
shake up the legacy meta lol. good one.
magic is too expensive, wizards needs to reprint every major legacy/modern staple every created so i can make many decks, and play everything.
seriously though, people need to get over the "it's just too expensive, wizards needs to do something about it."
No they don't. if you can't afford legacy....then it's probably not for you.
also, always remember that It's $10 for a BJ, $12 for an HJ, $15 for a ZJ...
(anyone else find it odd and a bj is less expensive than an hj?)What's a ZJ?
If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
August 4, 2015 10:11 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #25
It's not that i disagree with what you peeps are saying, i'm disagreeing that you're saying WOTC doesn't have to do one thing while simultaneously saying they Have to do another.
Either they have to do something or they don't. If they want to revive legacy in paper, they are going to reprint things that they said they wouldn't. Do i think that'll happen? Hell no. Wotc has made some off the wall decisions but they aren't stupid....yet.
August 4, 2015 10:36 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #27
I have an issue with miracles being a legal deck (Though don't think top should be the banned card if they want to can it) but not because of power level alone. Yes, it's an extremely powerful deck, but it has a decent number of poor matchups, and helps keep the format from being Delver Hell. The issue I have with Miracles is that the best version has a goal that is inherently disruptive to tournament play. Win game one. Go to time in game 2. 4 Ponder Miracles is generally agreed upon to be the best version of the deck (And even as a storm player, I would say it's the best deck in the format) and it literally intends to go to turns and not finish the second game. Whether or not it's the best deck in the format, or warping the format, or whatever, I don't necessarily think it should be allowed to stay for the simple sake that it is inherently disruptive to tournament structure.
(I won't get into the other issues here, but I do have strong feelings on them, this just isn't the place to talk about them for me.)
August 4, 2015 11:03 p.m.
Shouldn't we and wizards always be trying to make things better for future and current players? The restricted list makes that hard. Look at the recent reprint of the fetches in khans, just about everywhere people were saying yay this is a good thing. Just something to think about; yes it was hard for you to get in, does that mean it should be hard for future players too?
August 5, 2015 12:10 a.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #29
Its not Wizards's job to reprint everything that is expensive to help new players get into any format they want for cheap. Yes, the reprinting of the fetches helped to do just that but it didn't also cause people to lost hundreds of dollars on a single card. They also never promised that they wouldn't reprint the fetches. Some formats are more expensive than others and we all need to accept that. Nobody's saying that it should be hard for people to get in to legacy, only that its not Wizards's job to make it easy.
August 5, 2015 1:18 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #30
I just stopped playing Legacy, and switched to Modern. Modern isn't perfect, but it is diverse. It might be noteworthy that my move had a lot to do with my propensity to run budget decks. They can be a lot closer to the truly competitive stuff in Modern than in Legacy, in my opinion.
For me, the card that has always caused the lack of diversity in Legacy is actually Force of Will. Running non-blue combo decks and non-blue decks generally in a format where 70% of everyone runs (usually 4) FoW, plus 8 or more of the best cantrips in the game, and often 4 other counters just isn't happening. And that's fair enough, because FoW does more or less keep Legacy from becoming entirely a solitaire-combo-deck disaster. I'm not suggesting FoW or anything else should be banned, I'm just saying it makes diversity unlikely. C'est la vie.
And as for whether or not WotC should tamper with formats to make them more financially accessible, all I think is that WotC should just live up to what they repeatedly claim they want to do with particular formats. The whole point of Legacy is that it's supposed to more accessible than Vintage, and it is, but that's not saying much (again, why I switched). Part of the reason I like Modern is that WotC has lived up to it's word to a large degree, and I expect that will continue (though I also think they can do plenty more in that format).
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GlistenerAgent says... #2
Google each and see how many intelligent people have already weighed in. This topic is not new.
August 4, 2015 8:36 p.m.