An ongoing work to help people get into the best format of the best game in MTG.
Legacy forum
Posted on Oct. 19, 2015, 8:34 p.m. by titanreaver
I am fortunate enough to have been playing for twenty years or so and in all of that time I have amassed quite a large collection. This means that a lot of the time the "budget" isn't exactly the problem because I already own a bunch of the cards. However I am no rich man and so I understand that budgets matter, because when I don't have the cards, I can't always get them, and I hate that people can't get into the greatest format (well maybe second Vintage!) because of budgets. This makes me want to do some research and find budget options for some of the most commonly played cards that can often break the bank. I will need help in this so any advice will help. Each week I will come up with a new list of cards and wait one week for answers. If you have any answers after that week just make note of it in your post. The format should be [ [ card ] ]=[ [ cardx ] ] or [ [ cardy ] ] and any explanation or what ever else you wish to say about it. To start things off Dark Confidant, Ponder, Sinkhole, and Swords to Plowshares
titanreaver says... #3
Ponder=Portent or Index. Portent doesn't draw the card immediately but it does give you the option of looking at some else's library, and while most likely less useful Index does dig a little bit deeper than any other one mana filter spell.
October 19, 2015 8:40 p.m.
titanreaver says... #4
Alright maybe I don't explain things very well but what I just posted is about what I am talking. Additionally I am saying I will post a new list of cards for which I intend on finding options each week. Make sense?
October 19, 2015 8:43 p.m.
vishnarg: titanreaver wants people to discuss budget replacements for Legacy staples so more people can get into expensiveoldcards.format without needing expensive old cards.
October 19, 2015 8:45 p.m.
titanreaver says... #6
Thanks erabel. That's exactly what I was trying to say, and it makes sense too. The longer The longer I work in engineering reading Tech Manuals all day, the worse I get at speaking in a way that makes sense.
October 19, 2015 8:54 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Ponder is $1.
The reason that the other cards are so expensive is that they're the best at what they do. You can certainly substitute less efficient or effective cards for them, but you'll usually lose to any deck that runs the true staples. And when you're talking about a format as expensive and competitive as Legacy, it wouldn't really seem that you gain much by playing worse decks.
I think the more effective way to help people get into Legacy is to highlight cheap, but good decks that are viable in the current meta. I'd rather spend $150 on the red deck of the meta than spend $150 building a bad version of Jund or Miracles.
October 19, 2015 8:54 p.m.
titanreaver says... #8
Okay so Ponder is up here because its very commonly played and after recommending it to someone they believed it to be too expensive. Also I thought it had gone up to three dollars? But now that I look at it, yeah one dollar. Look I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. However the more people I get into the game the more I see that people want to play decks that they like. Not everybody likes to play burn, or oops all my spells, or what ever. They want to play blue, they like control, but can't afford to get FoW's. So this is for those people. Mostly because secondly after people start playing the blue deck that they like, they will eventually open up to buy the better cards. I have a friend who loves Merfolk, but couldn't afford the FoW's or Vaults. So I gave him some other options he played it went to a few Legacy FNM's and after a few events saved up to buy those cards and now he is having fun. I know that if I had said well here's burn I know it has nothing to do with what you want but its burn sooooo.... he wouldn't have played. So again its for them and others who maybe just want to play a miracle deck at home but at least want it to function like the ones they see on the internet or at the game store. There are plenty of people like that out there and I want to help them.
October 19, 2015 9:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
If $1-3 is too expensive, this isn't the game—let alone the format—for you.
But that aside, I know what the intent is. And it's admirable. But I question the effectiveness of telling someone to play something like Index over Ponder or Demolish (for example) over Sinkhole. Budget cards are invariably less efficient and effective than the format staples, and that tradeoff is not something that tends to lead to success in competitive environments. There's certainly something to be said for playing a deck that you like, but if you're too limited by your budget to play something you both like and can win with, then it's likely you'll get discouraged before you can justify investing more.
Further, many players think in terms of overall deck cost and they'll probably gravitate first toward their budget range and then to the deck they prefer within that range. If a player with $300 to spend sees that Deck X costs, on average, $1200 while Deck Y costs $400 and Deck Z costs $150, he or she will likely go for Deck Y or Z before Deck X.
Just a different take on things. I'm by no means saying that you should stop your project. I just think that another tack might be more appropriate given your end goal (to get people into Legacy).
October 19, 2015 9:22 p.m.
slovakattack says... #10
Sounds like a fun idea!
Hooting Mandrills could replace Tarmogoyf in specific decks. Scavenging Ooze can be pretty sweet, too.
Disrupting Shoal could be meta'd to be a worse Force of Will.
Dispel for Flusterstorm.
Gifts Ungiven for Entomb.
Duress for Thoughtseize.
October 19, 2015 9:32 p.m.
titanreaver says... #11
What you are saying makes sense. To that end I work all of the tie to try and either ale budget friendly decks that are also competitive, which has been successful every now and again. I played elves when cradles were 10 bucks. I also sell people cards for way below market value when I have extra just to help them out when they need it, and loan out when ever people need them.
I have been thinking about making a budget deck thread but I decided to do this one first, because in my experience this has been the more effective way of doing it. Now maybe that is because of how I introduce people to things and maybe that should be changed.
So I appreciate your input and if you have any specific advice on that or how to make that thread I would love to hear it.
The second reason I started this thread is because sometimes the oat expensive cards aren't actually the best they just seem to be the best. Sometimes its looking at cheap cards that leads to some very good decks. Think about Goblin Recruiter, when he came out nobody thought he was good and now he's banned.
October 19, 2015 9:40 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #12
Daze is another good budget FoW. It doesn't help when you're on the draw and it's their first turn, but the pretty cheap alternate cost can allow it to be a decent replacement.
Phyrexian Arena and Underworld Connections are probably the best Bob replacements, although they do kinda suck in comparison.
October 19, 2015 9:46 p.m.
titanreaver says... #14
Not yet. I am still active duty, for now I just have 60,000 cards in a spare room and I sell to people I meet at FNM's who are in need of a bit of help.
Thank you everybody those are all good suggestions. However I kind of wanted to talk about the cards I listed, then I will list more. Please don't stop the suggestions though they are still appreciated. Now if you don't like the list well then I suck and I can change it.
October 19, 2015 9:57 p.m.
titanreaver says... #16
Well it depends on what you are doing with the Candelabra because Magus of the Tabernacle is an obvious alternate. Then Turnabout usually does the same thing, 2xCloud of Faeries+ 1Equilibrium, or Palinchron usually achieves the same affect.
October 20, 2015 12:04 a.m.
The reason I was confused is because you mentioned suggestions for budget replacements for Ponder. That threw me off.
October 20, 2015 1:19 a.m.
titanreaver says... #18
I see. Well yes I suppose if I hadn't had that conversation earlier today (well yesterday I guess) I would find it weird to say call Ponder non budget friendly. I still find it strange I just thought maybe I was wrong and maybe other people thought it was expensive as well, because that happens sometimes. So lets just move on past Ponder and onto anything else.
October 20, 2015 1:35 a.m.
There are, however, some cards that really have nothing close to them in terms of functionality. What could possibly be a replacement for Chains of Mephistopheles? (Not that it's run much or even at all, but I saw some Jund decks siding it when DTT and TC weren't banned and Delver was super retarded.)
October 20, 2015 1:48 a.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #20
If your goal is to play legacy for cheap, the way to do it is absolutely not to play cheaper (worse) versions of existing cards. The way to do it is to play Burn. Death and Taxes if you're willing to sub wastelands for GQs. Potentially Dragon Stompy. Legacy isn't a format where you can play budget alternatives to cards because the ones you want to play are expensive, it simply doesn't work. There isn't a direct replacement for Dark Confidant, because the second you move to, say Phyrexian Arena (the next best thing) your "alternative" is a turn slower and is not a creature. The next best alternatives to Stone Rain are all coming down on turn 3. At which point they're not particularly relevant, because the vast majority of threats in the format are at two mana or behind a large amount of countermagic. Direct people towards budget friendly decks, because playing worse cards is a recipe to lose. (Burn without fetches is around 220, D&T; sans the expensive lands is 240ish, Dragon Stompy comes in between 250 and 400 dollars, depending on what list you play)
October 20, 2015 1:52 a.m.
titanreaver says... #21
So like I have said I understand that cheaper versions of cards are not going to be as effective. I am not a man to skimp on budget in his decks. I will put 15 Arabian knights mountains in my deck just because I like the way they look. When I last played Burn seriously I played with all Alpha Bolts, Guru mountains, foil fetches and a bunch of other crap like that so I get it. There is nothing that replaces Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I know that Force of Will is the best answer to turn one kills. There are however times that the things people are doing with a card could be replaced by another option. That is not every deck makes full use of every card in it, but they still buy the same expensive cards for it even if they won't get the full value out of it. If you need both of your Deathrite Shamans out in order to use all of its abilities, then maybe you could use something else in that spot. As I stated earlier I am not trying to come up with cards for to change the decks of the people who are already playing competitive MTG. Like I said, the basic point is for when Johnny X comes by and says "hey I like those miracles cards and I have a box of stuff my friend gave me. Can you help me make a deck?" that you can show him some easy-on-the-wallet options to show him so that he can at least sit down at the table and play a few rounds before he is willing to go and give up his heard working college student pay check for one land. Also you just gave an option of what I a saying Ghost Quarters for Wasteland that's a good example of what I am saying. Lastly I know not everything has a perfect alternative, but there are actually some advantages to Phyrexian Arena first off its not a creature. Which yes can be seen as an advantage as well as a disadvantage. There are plenty of times where people have used Dark Confidant when they absolutely don't make use of his body. So anyway I understand that people think that legacy is a game of money. However as I said, when I built combo elves which is not much different from what it is now, it cost me 100$ for the whole thing. Now the cradles alone are that much, which means card price is not always indicative of how good it is, or what it can do. I bought 8 Lion's Eye Diamonds for 25 cents each shortly after their release. Now how much are they. Anyway if you want to help in the discussion please do, if you want to tell me again that cheaper decks are better I get it, but in my experience players want to do specific things when they play even from the beginning, and so I want to help them. Okay
October 20, 2015 2:30 a.m.
I'm not trying to berate anything. I'm just saying that, in some cases, there simply are no alternatives. It's not even about the budget portion; there are expensive cards that no one runs. The point is that they're just not replaceable.
October 20, 2015 3:10 a.m.
1) I think the idea of this thread is very interesting. I'm a kind of new player (been playing for just over a year), have no idea if I'll ever play Legacy, but who knows... this thread is a way to pull people who hesitate into Legacy and I like that.
2) If you don't like the idea of the thread, move on with your life. There's no need to waste everyone's time by saying "what you're doing is stupid" so please be constructive and help. (Yes, I'm aware there's plenty of tards on this site that do nothing except saying "you can't do that, that's stupid, etc --> makes for a real non-fun environment imo)
October 20, 2015 6:34 a.m.
Not super related, but despite it not being super well-fitted to the meta is Nic Fit still a respectable deck in Legacy? I like the deck and it can easily be built pretty cheap (Veteran Explorer means you can do without a set of bayous) and I thought heck, I could build it so I have something to play with the few guys I know who do Legacy.
October 20, 2015 8:19 a.m.
I feel like this thread may be heading the wrong direction. There's no need to get defensive or upset. No one has berated anyone. This thread's purpose is to find alternative, budget friendly cards for legacy. Legacy, like all formats, can be played for fun. You may not win a lot with a subpar deck but you can still play. As far as some expensive cards, Ghost Quarter is a decent replacement for Wasteland.
vishnarg says... #2
October 19, 2015 8:38 p.m.