No Reserve List Legacy
Legacy forum
Posted on Nov. 23, 2015, 12:56 p.m. by Serendipitous_Hummingbird
So there's an article on MTGGoldfish that proposes that in order to save legacy, the cards on the reserve list should be banned. I was wondering what you guys who play legacy think of that? It certainly seems interesting and could be a viable option. What do you all think?
EndStepTop says... #3
Seems like a terrible idea. He evaluates LED as "another dark ritual" ignoring that it turns on the Infernal tutor engine. Shocks make Cards like Daze horrible and Wasteland much better. The format would turn into a bastard of Modern with overly dominant decks Ie. Death and Taxes.
November 23, 2015 1:05 p.m.
That would definitely do more harm than good, in my opinion. It could make for an interesting alternative format, however.
November 23, 2015 1:05 p.m.
The idea that legacy is a dying format is a bad argument. Yes, it's true that large event support is dwindling, but there are still a lot of local events. I sincerely doubt Legacy is going away before Vintage, and there are still enough people that play that to fill a tourney at Eternal Weekend.
November 23, 2015 1:08 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #6
That format seems horrible broken. Belcher seems a bit insane since nothing is on the reserve list (nothing important).
D&T, Jund and Nic Fit seem absolutely insane in a format without the reserve list. Honestly speaking miracles would be fine since they can get away with playing shocks although they would lose the red splash.
November 23, 2015 1:31 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #7
lordoftheshadows Force of will isn't on the reserve list. It would still do a decent job of checking belcher.
Abandoning reserve list cards would certainly kill legacy as we know it. What we would be left with is a hybrid of the current legacy and the old extended. The mana wouldn't be as good but everything else would still be fine. Brainstorm, Force of Will, Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Top, JtMS, Counterbalance, and many others would still be legal.
I don't play legacy though so I am not an authority on the subject.
November 23, 2015 1:40 p.m.
"Without acquiring any understanding or information on this topic, I hate it!"
-quintessential Murica!
I think it's bloody great. Well reasoned (for the most part).
Of course it changes the current format, and for a legacy player running a significant number of reserve list cards, it certainly could be said to ruin it. Fine.. you and your $3k+ deck buddies can justifiably complain about it over cigars and brandy at the yacht club bicentennial.*
A limit on printing necessarily means a limit on players capable of playing certain decks. Cards not being made of a Mithril-adimantium composite necessarily means those numbers dwindle. Price is prohibitive. These are facts.. The format IS dropping off. WotC can either let Beauregard and his dotcom millionair buddies keep their little club going until it dies, or revitalize it at a point where people still know and/or care about it. I would vote for the latter.
*Yes. Not all legacy players are Trump. Some just save a scrape and acquire a deck over a long haul. The whole ordeal makes it all the more special. There is merit in this. The counter argument is two fold: the aforementioned fixing something that is dying is easier than fixing a dead thing. And the fundamental thinking that mtg is a game. A card game with god damn dragons and ridiculous sea people. Games should generally be fun and accessible to anyone that want to play them, should they hope for longevity.
November 23, 2015 1:49 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #9
Serendipitous_Hummingbird I know but the power of the blue decks is built from the reserve list.
Non BUG stifle delver decks get a ton of power from daze which would be a lot worse with shocks. BUG decks lose their mana base and end up taking a ton more damage. Lands loses Tabernacle and the ability to deal with fair decks as well. Sneak and Show loses its mana base and probably is forced to be Omnitell instead.
The manabases in legacy are very powerful in legacy and are honestly one of the big reasons a lot of fair decks are able to exist.
November 23, 2015 1:51 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
Let me pose this question, then: is the removal of Reserved List cards from the format (and therefore the crashing of many of their values—an outcome the RL was put in place to prevent) really a better solution than the development of a new format?
I'm not leaning one way or the other right now, but any proposal to change any format by such a severe degree will result in some corresponding degree of divestment. And the question that necessarily precedes that change is "Is what we're doing improving the format or creating something new?"
Further, is Legacy so endangered that a lack of action would mean the format does die and has to be replaced anyway?
November 23, 2015 1:55 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #11
I have no answer to any of those questions. That's why I'm wondering what you guys who place legacy regularly think
November 23, 2015 2:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik. So crashing value is an interesting idea not addressed in the article. And one i'm curious about as well. It certainly stands to reason that a $180 Tropical Island will loose value without a competitive environment - but to what extent? I can't think of an equivalent comparison. Anyone? Guardian Beast is about the most expensive casual demand only card that comes to mind. There will certainly be greater demand for Tropical Island than Guardian Beast irrespective of bannings.
In theory, WotC could also Negate this devaluing. They could simply offer an in house guaranteed buylist price. Take an Initial loss vs. a renewed avenue of profit, and snuff out any 'being sued' concerns. that could well be wholly unreasonable, there's too much math to do there for one man on a monday afternoon.
November 23, 2015 2:46 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #13
LED is on the reserved list so I feel like Belcher would in fact get nerfed.
What's the point of banning the reserved list, though? How does that "save" legacy? The decks become cheaper but in the article the author compares deck prices before and after duals, not counting adding the shocks in, and the tier one decks are still 2-3k.
All it does is decrease the diversity of random fringe decks, nerfs Belcher, Dredge, and Sneak and Show, and makes other decks worse.
Also, where are the statistics to support the fact that Legacy is a dwindling format? Just because it has fewer players than Modern or Standard does not make it a dwindling format.
November 23, 2015 3:21 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #14
I quit Legacy some time ago, but I'd be disappointed to see it disappear, or turn into Vintage 2.0. I'd also be interested in returning to the format if it were more manageable to do so financially.
I agree banning the RL could be interesting (the argument posed in the article isn't without merit), but it would really warp the format, and certainly make it less distinct from other formats. I also agree that banning might sink RL values and negate the purpose of having the RL in the first place (though many Vintage cards that see little play a maintain value, no? I think it's sufficient to say results would be highly unpredictable).
So the problem seems to me that Legacy is unapproachable for many people due to insanely high deck prices, and this is unlikely to reverse itself because new RL cards won't be printed, and will be increasingly rare. Lack of new blood and the ability to satisfy new demand by printing cards make the whole thing unprofitable for WotC and others. So here's a wild stab at a solution: allow for officially sanctioned proxies. Rent them at tournaments for minor fees.
Step 1: WotC, SSG, or another outlet running a reboot of the competitive Legacy environment prints a bunch of very clearly marked proxies - this could be done just for RL cards, or be slightly more expansive, perhaps.
Step 2: They don't sell them or distribute them to anyone. Instead, you can essentially rent them on a per-event basis, for a small fee to cover associated costs, and are required to return them at the end of the event.
Step 3: Profit??? Slightly, by "saving" the format without really violating the RL. Original printings maintain their value, players get access to the cards they want and need for competitive play. The proxies remain as worthless as ones you make yourself, even if you walk off with one, but tournament organizers still make a couple bucks renting them.
Thoughts?
November 23, 2015 4:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #15
It's an interesting idea, for sure, but it's a violation of current proxy rules and might be seen as WOTC or TOs nosing into the secondary market because they're now offering something that almost directly competes with legitimate product.
November 23, 2015 4:19 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #16
I mean, the reason that Legacy is perhaps not as popular as it once was (or rather, has a much smaller player base than Modern or Standard) is because of the huge leap in price. But actually banning many format staples will only lead to Modern 2.0, in other words, a completely different format. Which might not be a bad thing, but it's not what we're aiming for.
Rather, I think that (collectors, prepare to cringe) that reserved list should simply not exist, allowing very expensive cards to be reprinted in side products, such as Commander or Duel Decks. Yes, as soon as they are reprinted, the ABUR dual lands will probably shoot down sharply in price once they get a single reprint, but it will enable a lot of players that are not so wealthy or have spare change to play Legacy.
I do realize that this is probably never going to happen though :(
November 23, 2015 4:25 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #17
I've always held the opinion that the reserve list should only be revised, not abolished completely. Maybe by taking strictly the lands off of it. There's no real way of fully predicting what that would do though. It's a huge risk and quite honestly, i wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if legacy faded out fully before anything discussed here happens
November 23, 2015 4:29 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #18
Epochalyptik - Yeah, I'm not quite sure I sketched out an optimal version of that idea, but something like that could be possible. You could certainly change proxy rules, though. And the fact that SSG has decided to stop propping up Legacy indicates that they're not really making money off that part of the secondary market right now anyway. In my model, SSG (or whoever) would basically be sacrificing the profit off of one Volcanic Island, for profit off of 4X Force of Will for each new deck assembled. And WotC might eventually have enough of a market for a Legacy Masters in paper.
November 23, 2015 4:56 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #19
1) I don't think it fixes why most people think that Legacy is "dying." Which apparently appears to be the "lack of support for the format." Let's be crystal clear, WotC doesn't want people to play Legacy, they want people to play formats that they still sell cards for because they are a business, which is why they push Standard, Limited and Commander. Hell, if it wasn't for viewer backlash, we wouldn't have a Modern Pro Tour. Turning Legacy into Modern + will not increase support and it will alienate longtime players of the format that make up the backbone of the community. SCG has dropped the ball, probably due to cutting a deal with WotC to have SCG events have larger implications on the PT scene, now other groups are starting to pick up the slack because people want to play the format. If no one wanted to play it, we wouldn't have sold out Legacy GPs and the largest ever crowd at Eternal Weekend.
2) You think people bitch about the price of Modern now, wait until Shocks spike up to $100 a piece. Not only that, but I think part of the reason you play Legacy is to do something powerful and for a lot of people that includes having perfect mana without taking damage. By swapping to shocks only, it takes away a integral part of the Legacy experience for a lot of people, hence making the format less enjoyable.
November 23, 2015 4:58 p.m.
TheManWithaPlan says... #20
Legacy holds a soft spot for many players as their favourite format to play, I am no exception. I have only been playing Legacy since April-May 2015 however I have completely fallen in love with it. I'm working on getting my dual lands for Delver decks in Legacy as I am working to complete 
, 
, and Delver. I would like to have my duals could be cheaper however I won't complain because I understand why these cards are so expensive.
Honestly I think that the fix to this problem isn't getting rid of reserved cards. Half the reason these cards are expensive in the first place is that they're played, and because of that cards like Lion's Eye Diamond will drop in price drastically, because it's not played super heavily in Vintage. Lion's Eye Diamond sees tones of play in legacy because of Storm Variants. I do agree with the opinion that Legacy would be destroyed due to the absence of these reserved list. These cards would be just small collectable items and collectors would still be pissed. This is just not a fix.
The best fix I think we all can agree on is a revision of the reserved list. However that is next to impossible to agree on without completely disregarding all promises made in regards to the reserve list. There is a way of reprinting these cards that will not kill the prices on these cards. Printing some of these cards as rare promos can dip prices, and increase supply. Honestly I hope we find a fix to this problem and that Legacy does not die a slow and painful death and that the Legacy player base continues to grow and carry this format into the future.
November 23, 2015 4:59 p.m.
chicagobearz says... #21
I think Wizards should make a competitive format that excludes the prices of the reserved list, heck lets even drop all the cards from when the game was less developed than today. Lets say nothing before 8th edition, and WTC will reprint staple cards at regular intervals to keep prices competitive with the demands. What will happen is that there will be a format that mirrors todays legacy decks and strategies but with a much more balanced color pie, still with virtually all mechanics playable. I propose Wizards calls this new, much more modern format, Hey Play Me, Stop Wasting Everyones in Legacys Time, but Im not firm on the tittle.
Sure the cards the format will lose are only a fraction of the total number of staples, but the cards that decks would be forced to drop would cripple the build. LED, Metalworker, Gaeas Cradle, and Aluren make the decks they are in competitive with the rest of the format, cutting these would eliminate quite a few deck shells. The rest of the RL are all workhorses, Temple of the false gods I might consider over City of traitors, except temple is not as good. I am drawn to legacy because it has the most powerful cards printed, with the banlist exceptions, and you can have 4 copies of each cards. Personally when deck building I go by a rule of if its a one of it can probably be a none of. The restricted list is great for vintage, there are so many ways to interact with your moxs and such, but personally Im drawn to different, more yet still less restrictive deck builds, as found in 1.5.
1994 Wizards printed Legends and sometime around then my older brothers started buying and playing magic. I being 6 at the time mom said I couldnt buy cards until I was older, brothers were 10 and 13 at this point. We have always loved bored games like stratego and Risk so naturally we were all 3 drawn to mtg. My brothers were perfect examples of the kids playing on sidewalks and at recess with no sleeves, I often joke that my between my brothers hardcore play and my moms garage sales we have either destroyed or sold for dirt cheap better collections than most casual players can ever hope for. So with no collection to call my own I was forced to sneak into their room and look at Nicol Bolas and others in the same light that years later I would their playboys. Thus a collector was born. In 1997, Portal, was the first time I got to buy cards on my own and ever since its been deck binders, sleeves, speculating, and doing my best to preserve what was left of the family cards, by then they were abandoned for girls or sports. I remember when I found trollandtoad.com, I dont have to beg or blackmail anybody for a ride to the comic/card store??? Jackpot!!! Fast forward 15+ years of buying, selling, getting great deals on trades, getting burnt on trades, sleeving and unsleeving, buying back 4 of the same darn cards I sold thinking they were useless, mowing lawn after lawn only to get ripped off by your blood, and mom at a garage sale selling decks worth thousands in todays market for $5 because he looked so happy, it just reminded me of my boys, and I had to let him have it; and I own a few legal legacy decks with current price tags that are very elevated from what I purchased them at. My point is that I earned that price tag, and anybody wanting to buy their way onto the 3rd edition hype train, it has long since left the station and you must pay what I say now. Im sorry that my sentiment comes off as elitist, but Im not arguing with you, I am an elitist. Price tag too high, try a different format or game. Ive even had the gumption to take a page from Mr. Garfield and make up my own games for my friends to play. Scata-Georgies is a new family tradition at holidays, its scatagories with bonus answers worth more if they match mine. Total cost of creativity, very cheap, unless youre at work.
My LGS, playgroup, and cockatrice friends pretty much agree on 1 point; Proxies and fine. Once a month we have a legacy event at my LGS and if I get beat by someone running a Miracles deck that they printed themselves but were skilled enough to beat whatever I had, I shake their hand and say Good Game. The actual cards dont make the deck, the player does. If that player doesnt have the resources they think they need, re-think it. Youtube has instructions on everything you need to print yourself a tier 1 deck at your local library.
My last point on the subject of making major changes to Legacy specifically, is not that the format would just be a duplicate of other formats but rather just such a bastard version of 1.5 the format would be no fun, at the local level an especially online. I refer you to the budget legacy player. Folks who dont want to spend tons of cash on legal cards often replace them with worse versions, or change the scheme and pace of the deck to fit their budget. I get so much less joy in beating an Innistrad standard Zombie deck that somebody crammed a few dark rits and a Khorlash in, than a tier 1 deck with scratch paper in the sleeve saying this mountain is rather a Taiga or Volcanic Island and an opponent who knows how to use them.
Thank you all for reading my manifesto. To sum it up, keep your dirty mitts off my format. If Legacy is not for you, try Modern or EDH, gamer's look like they really enjoy these. If legacy is a dying format, let it go gently into the night with dignity, and if it in fact does die and is no longer played, make sure the next time you visit Anchorage Alaska to bring your deck and look me up.
November 23, 2015 7:04 p.m.
WotC aren't looking to "kill" legacy, they just want players to play it on MTGO, as they aren't stopped by the RL there.
The paper format will never receive any support from them unless they suddenly decide to remove the RL, which they won't do due to fear or public backlash and the lawsuits that would follow.
The article on MTGGoldfish makes a lot of good points IMO. No it would not be a similar format to the current Legacy, however it would be a lot more approachable for players due to the reduced costs of many decks. Yes it would be expensive still, but considering how recently we have had fetchs and shocks printed, access to the mana base is easy. The biggest reason people are put of from Legacy (in my experience) is due to cost.
I'd rather not see Legacy slowly drift into obscurity, so doing SOMETHING to help encourage the format would be great. I'm in the UK and many players over here will lend out decks/cards happily for events. If more players and collectors were willing to lend these cards out it would make it a lot easier for players to enter into the format, and then gain interest from there (that's how I got into it, being able to borrow a deck as I bought my own over time helped).
But many people are not happy to lend out the cards or decks BECAUSE of the price.
I feel like Legacy players want more IRL Legacy, but only a few are willing to actually do something about it. I see so many "sucks you can't afford it" comments online, which doesn't exactly foster a welcoming environment.
November 26, 2015 5:13 a.m.
The cost of Legacy is not an issue for anyne looking to get into the format. The time needed seems to be the problem.
Today most folks seem to want to be able to do anything they want at any time they want to. For me getting into Legacy was like growing a beard. It took time, some planning and slowly working it into shape. I could not just wake up one day and decide I wanted that beard and that I had a right to have such a majestic facialhair the very same day.
Today I own 3 nice Legacy decks that took me 2 years to assemble, but sadly I no longer have that beard that I started this journy with. And that was the sacrefice I had to make, the products needed to keep the beard in it's majestic shape where to much of a strain on my wallet if I where to accuire my Legacy cards at the same time. And as the winter chill brushes over my now exposed cheeks I know that my love for the game will keep me warm.
So stop whining and start working on your character, as that is the only thing keeping you younger players from getting into Legacy.
November 27, 2015 5:56 p.m.
Right, but on the flip side, if players are unwilling to lend out cards or decks, and the cost of getting a deck is too high to just go about buy it in a couple of months, instead of taking a year to build it up, how does a player get "in" to Legacy?
The answer? They don't. Why bother when you can get a cheapish competitive modern deck and build from there, or just play standard for a fraction of the price? (usually)
I know 3 types of people who play legacy,
1 - The player who has been playing for years and had most of the stuff anyway.
2 - The guy who has a good job and the ability to go out and buy the cards with relative ease.
3 - The guy whose entire life is magic and spends every spare dime he has on it.
In the UK currently, we have seen some great organisation go a long way into getting more legacy events run across the UK, and the support these guys are doing in terms of lending decks and cards goes SO far in helping new players get into the format. But I still know many players who would play Legacy, but don't due to price. 99% of the people who don't play Legacy but want to, do so because of the price. You can't just ignore that piece of information and act out like it's easy to get into it. Not everyone has the ability to put aside 100+ a month just to spend on Magic cards.
The goal here at the end of the day is to make Legacy a more accessible format for players across the board, and if the Reserved List is not going to see any kind of reprint, then a new format that helps create the feel of Legacy without the same kind of price barrier, is going to be a good option IMO.
November 30, 2015 11:35 a.m.
To the modern comment - Modern Burn is more expensive than Legacy Burn. Just saying.
November 30, 2015 2:07 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #27
Surprised this thread is still alive. Glad though, as it's an interesting discussion.
ibanner56 Modern Burn is also a lot better with respect to the Modern metagame than Legacy Burn is to the Legacy meta, and I think that applies generally to tier 2, or even non-tier decks and cheap decks in Modern. That said, there are playable decks in both formats for around $300 (which is still a lot for some people - for y'know, cardboard game pieces), so fair point.
Jojja Well in my day, we had to walk 10 miles to Legacy tournaments through 5 feet of snow, and it was uphill, both ways. :D
Maltanis I'd be curious to hear what you think of the suggestion I made above, about a tournament-hosting entity renting out proxies.
November 30, 2015 2:56 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #28
Wizard_of_the_Broke the reason modern burn is better is because the mana bases are so much more greedy. If you want to run Abzan in modern you get have to run shocks and fetches and take massive damage, making burns job easier. With legacy, the duals make it much easier to have perfect mana and only take 3-5 damage.
November 30, 2015 3:43 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #29
ThisIsBullshit I totally agree that's a major reason, if not the biggest reason. Counterbalance, counterspells, and Cabal Therapy don't help Burn, either. Burn isn't even good enough to warrant anyone running Hydroblast or any kind of life gain (unless something has changed drastically that I missed). The point is, Burn's just not even close to being particularly good in Legacy, and it's still around $600, I think.
Sidenote: I haven't played Legacy in a long time, so I don't know how recent this is - but I just noticed that blue decks (Miracles, Show and Tell) are splashing red for anti-blue stuff like Pyroblast. I find that pretty hysterical. That should be a clue that the format is out of whack (though that particular issue has nothing to do with the RL).
November 30, 2015 4:11 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #30
I don't think legacy is "out of whack", I think a lot of the anti-blue hate was to account for DTT and TC when it was still legal.
Lands (which runs absolutely zero blue) just won a GP a few weeks ago.
November 30, 2015 4:21 p.m.
When people talk about the cost of Legacy the normally talk about it as if players are starting from zero cards. That is just not true, most players will have a modern deck or two when they start looking at Legacy. And going from Modern to Legacy is not really a big jump. Most modern decks will cost around the same as a Legacy deck if you take out ABUR Duals and Shock's. It's not that big of a diffrence. You can also play with Shocklands while slowly buying Duals, that's what I did. Running Watery Graves over Underground Seas untill I could get the 2 I needed for my TinFins deck.
Last week I borrowd 4 Wastelands from a buddy and ran G/R Zoo in our weekly Legacy tourny. I was using 80% "Modern" cards going 3-1 and getting some store credit. And I also traded in some standard cards as I'm getting out of the format(I have spent more money on standard then I have Legacy since I came back to MtG 3 years ago) that gave me enough to get the last Underground Sea and Scrubland I needed for TinFins.
There are loads of ways to play Legacy. Yes it's expensive and swapping decks 2-3 times a year is not something people will be able to afford. But thats what Standard is for. If you have some cards(random fetches ect) and you get yourself a dirt cheap scumbag red deck to play at Standard FNM and spend nothing else on standard for a year other the small upgrades for the red deck then you'll have your Legacy deck by the end of next year.
November 30, 2015 5:02 p.m.
I just had a look at the G/W ENchanress deck I'v just finished. On this site the version I'm running is less then 600$, and I'v seen versions for as low as 400$ and as high as 800$ all using the sites TCG prices. Compare that to your random 3-4Color Standard decks and tell me that playing Legacy is to expencive again?
November 30, 2015 5:17 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #33
ThisIsBullshit - I could be wrong, but I think this (the blue hate in blue decks) is a recent development - and that it's definitely something that's still in current lists regardless, so I don't think it's only related to Dig/Cruise. But when I say "out of whack," I don't mean it's completely imbalanced, I just mean that you might expect a greater diversity of decks from such a large card pool, but half the decks in the format run the same exact shell of counters and cantrips, for better or worse.
Jojja - Don't get me wrong, I think Modern is also pretty expensive (and I think criticizing Modern for that is way more fair, as WotC has repeatedly marketed it as affordable), and Standard is just plain crazy. But those formats aren't losing support any time soon.
I think what people are getting at is not that one can't play Legacy on a budget, or even win some games on a budget, but that there are cards and decks that are just flat-out inaccessible to a lot of people. Look at the Lands deck ThisIsBullshit mentioned. It's often reliant on The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - a card that is beyond many people's means, if they can find one for sale in the first place. Of course there's other decks to play. But facing broken ass cards like that which cost hundreds of dollars isn't appealing to a lot of people. The format being unappealing means few new players, and it will become unsustainable from an organizer's perspective.
So the original posting was about banning the RL to rekindle interest. I don't think that's necessary at all, but I do think SSG's dropping support means the format might need some tweaks to keep going.
November 30, 2015 6:59 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke - The issue with proxies is that WotC won't support it. The idea is to end up with a format that WotC would be happy to help support by printing cards in supporting sets like Modern/Legacy Masters or Commander decks.
Proxies are fine for casual tournaments but you won't be able to arrange something big under that premise. Ideally we want a format which is officially supported.
Modern at least gets support as a format, so we can expect reprints in the future, and costs have been reduced due to the reprinting of fetchs. Legacy didn't see much of a price drop due to this as the cost of fetch's was never really the issue due to the fact Duel Lands don't enter tapped, so which fetch's you run is less of an issue.
Yes you can build into Legacy over time. However for many players this involves putting most of their disposable income into it. Now if you have decks built for Modern, then yes, you are at a much easier position, but the idea here is to create a more inclusive format where people have less of an entry barrier. If you have little in terms of card pool, then it's a choice between playing one format and another, and seeing how Legacy has such a high entry price, people simply get put off. Even then when you need to make that push into it you need Dual Lands, Wastelands, Force of Will, etc, etc. The price goes up and up. Again, if you don't have a ton of disposable income, it can be a choice between Legacy or another Format. Most people would rather have access to a couple of different Modern decks than 1 Legacy deck, or be playing Standard on a regular basis. The time it takes to get a decent competitive deck for Legacy doesn't help. A format where "you have no force of will so you lose" is a regular occurrence is pretty crap when your building into it (this is from speaking to my locals to be fair, as well as some others at Tournaments)
If you can borrow cards that's great, but it doesn't sort the issue in the long run, and only goes a small way to helping people, as there aren't enough cards to lend to everyone who wants to get into the format.
Jojja - G/W Enchantress is hardly a competitive deck, and considering how it's a fringe deck and costs a minimum of $400 kind of shows the ridiculous pricing of Legacy. Standard is only super expensive due to 12 fetch's being in every deck and the EV of BfZ being screwed up due to Expedition lands. It's a temporary situation, compared to the ever increasing price of Legacy. Underground Sea has more than doubled in the last 4 years, imagine if that trend continues how expensive Legacy will be in another 4 years!
I don't think banning the RL is the right move. Keep Legacy as a format, and look to create a new "No Reserved List Legacy". The article goes through what the format would look like, and it would be much easier for players to get into, and not as big a step to move into as Legacy is from Modern. Maybe even a Restricted List in Legacy would help the format. The point is, as time goes on, Legacy will only continue to get more expensive, being less accessible for more people. The format is not dying, as many players are still involved and will be for time to come, but acting as if their is no problem isn't going to help.
Want to still be playing Legacy in 10 years time? Then something needs to be done to help people get into. All we ever seem to see is "Save money, don't be poor, understand Magic costs money" as a reason for us to spend $200+ on single cards. The same thing applies in Modern with cards like Goyf, Lilly and Snappy. WotC doesn't give a crap about anything outside of Standard. Even Modern feels like a cheap excuse for them to print poor sets like Modern Masters 2015 that do nothing but place money in their hands and do squat to overall pricing in the format. So unless we do something about it, they will feel no pressure to change.
December 1, 2015 5:20 a.m.
Well Modern was inexpensive untill WotC started supporting it. With an influx of players to the format the cost of staple cards skyrocketed. The same thing would happen to a bastardized version of Legacy and we would see all the none-modern cards grow in price.
At the end of the day deck cost in Legacy would double just like it has in Modern. Unless we see a Standard level of reprints where all the cards are staples the cost of Modern/Legacy will only go up more.
December 1, 2015 6:17 a.m.
At least some support where prices stay stable would be nice. Players in 5-6 years time stand no chance of entering Legacy without serious investments being made.
I don't want Legacy to be Vintage 2.0 in terms of price is all. No one wants to be paying $500 for Blue Duel Lands.
December 1, 2015 6:46 a.m.
This just seems like a selfish idea. "I don't have access to these cards, so lets change the format for everyone so it meets my wants" is exactly how this sounds.
If you want to make a new format, go right ahead. It's just going to be another tiny leaders though. If it becomes popular, it will have 1-3 months in the sun, and then fade away to obscurity. Doubt there would be any tournaments for it anyway, as the legacy player base wouldn't want to play underpowered decks.
The entire allure to legacy is that you have access to most of the best cards every printed, and get to do busted shit? Turn one storm kill / emrakul? Sure. Draw your entire deck with elves on turn three? Sure. Completely lock your opponent out of doing anything with Lands? Sure.
The answer is simple: If you don't like the format as it is, and think it's too broken, then don't play it. Stick to modern or standard or draft. Don't try and ruin everyone else's favorite format because it doesn't work the way you want it to.
If it's a finance issue, well, I can sympathize. Yes, legacy IS expensive. But the argument of "it's too expensive, and I can't afford it, so these cards should be banned" is the epitome of selfishness.
Let's make an analogy and talk about cars. Let's say that draft is the equivalent to a used Honda, Standard is a Subaru WRX, Modern is a BWM 5 series and Legacy is a Mercedes S class. Regardless of what you own/can afford to make payments on, you aren't going to go around saying "Man, it's so unfair that Mercedes cost ninety five thousand dollars, that's such bullshit! I'm a car owner and I deserve to drive one of the best cars, how dare they charge this much!", and then proceed to try and strong arm Mercedes into selling their cards for forty thousand. Well, i'm sure there are some people out there who say that, but it's fucking absurd. The reality is that not everything is available to everyone, and you have to live within your means. If you can't afford a Mercedes (and I can't, before anyone starts this argument), that's life. If you can't afford to play Legacy, that's life. End of discussion. If you REALLY want in to the format, don't waste money on take out and starbucks coffee, save up the money, and buy the deck. Don't complain about the price of admission.
December 10, 2015 4:12 p.m. Edited.
And you know what? There are legacy decks out there that cost less than a modern deck to build. Merfolk, Elves, MUD, Loam Pox, Mono-Black Tezzerate, Belcher, the list goes on. All of them are good to an extent, and in the right meta, can be at the very least tier 2 decks. Elves and MUD regularly switch in and out of tier 1.5 and tier 2, and both cost under $1500 to build.
If you want to play blue, then you're gonna have to dish out the big bucks, but don't go saying that it's too expensive when there are very viable options to choose from that are less expensive than modern.
December 10, 2015 4:18 p.m. Edited.
No, I didn't. The main point of the thread was to discuss whether "no reserve list legacy" would save the format. I was expressing my opinion on that. The short answer is that no, "no reserve list legacy" would, in fact, kill the format.
December 11, 2015 12:04 p.m.
So this is a deck I just picked up for Legacy. enchantressSure it's not Lands or some 4color Delver/Shardless deck. But it's a good legacy deck that is suer un to play. I had the Fetchlands and the 4 Green Sun's before so th deck cost a whoping 320$ to pick up and it wins gaes while being fun to play.
Here are two other decks that I have been winning at the FNM level(20-30 players) with.
TinFins is a deck I built from owning the Modern version "Grishoalbrand" deck and having picked up fetches in Standard. Overall I needed to buy stuff for round 500$ to transform the deck into a Legacy deck.
Legacy Zoo This is my Zoo deck from Modern that I ported over to Legacy for shit's and giggles and I have been going x-1 with the deck since I started playing it at the shops weeklys.
The majority of both decks are ported from Modern decks and can be built even if your on a budget and will win more gams than they lose. Sure it might take some time to get the duals. But buying 1 none-blue every month is not a problem. And if you feel that it is then a luxury hobby like mtg might not be for you.
December 12, 2015 6:34 a.m.
legacy is dying because wotc wants it dead. we can discuss for days whether or not this is a good idea, or that other idea, or that other one...it wont matter how many ideas we pitch at wotc, they will ignore them all and carry on with the current status quo because thats their best interest. they want legacy to fade into obscurity the way vintage did, and the best part is that they dont even have to do anything. just sit and wait for it to happen, with the always present reseve list as the ultimate cop out answer to their inaction. "But guys, we CANT do anything about it, see? we will honor our promise about the reserve list!!!"
all this "what can we do to save the format?" threads are funny because they all seem invariably oblivious to the fact that the only ones that could save the format are the same ones that dont want to.
December 18, 2015 6:15 a.m.
Legacy doesn't interest me at all. The price is way to high. i don;t play just to play, I play to win. And I cannot justify spending thousands of dollars to beat people i do not know. I have more important uses for my money.
That said, i do not know why this is such a big deal. Just use proxies. No, you wont be able to play in tournaments, but if you start a local group and tell everyone, hey, proxies are allowed! then people will play. I would, just to test the format and see how it's played.The number will be very very small, but people WILL pick up the format if you do this. They have to play the format to join it, and the only way to let them is by informal groups playing with proxies.1 in 20 or 1 in 50 will then buy the actual cards they need.A strong leader who menotrs the interested by showing them, and discussing the decks they will face, the power comos, etc, will do more to grow a local base than anything WOTC can do across the board short of abolishing the reserved list and printing Legacy Masters.
There really is no other way.
Aside: WOTC could reasonably release a statement that Reserved List cards have reached a collectability saturation limit. Meaning, the cards worth money are established, and extremely collectible. Their value can be determined to be due to their collectible status, and no other factor.You can pull all kinds of data to support this (you can support anything with manipulations of data :P) but the key point is that the value is set by the extreme scarcity of top condition cards. Too many copies are in a condition that collectors will reject.Condition matters. as a collector, not just any Tabernacle T pendrell Vale will do. it has to be pristine. No 'lightly played' or 'heavily played' will do.From that perspective, reprinting reserved list will not lower the price. A Mint Legends TAPV is valuable due to it's scarcity, not it's playability.
It's like coins. Coins have a value due to scarcity combined with condition. They make new pennies every year, so what makes a mint 1909VDB-S worth what it is compared to a mint 1950 or 1990? The same thing that makes an mint Beta Lightning Bolt worth one price and a mint MM2 Lightning Bolt another.
So WOTC could just announce that starting in 2025, Reserved List cards will be eligible for reprinting - with new art. That lets collectors get out if they wish, and gives nigh 10 years for people to adjust to the idea.
December 20, 2015 6:56 p.m.
Agreed on WotC wants Legacy dead. It is overly obvious.
December 21, 2015 12:02 p.m.
Yellowcandy says... #45
If legacy dies I wonder if people will still continue playing it casually?
January 10, 2016 4:02 p.m.
I plan to. I am even building a second deck for it.
January 11, 2016 11:18 a.m.
I don't plan on replacing the legacy I play with some shit format like Modern, that's for sure. If I can't play Legacy I don't want to play worse magic.
January 11, 2016 5:18 p.m.
I'll keep playing legacy casually, just like i've been doing for the past 5 years. I just wont attend GPs/Opens anymore. But that doesnt mean Im gonna start uying product, wotc hasnt seen for years and most likely wont ever see money from me ever again
Epochalyptik says... #2
Without reading into the arguments that support that claim, it seems like a pretty good way to destroy the things that define Legacy.
November 23, 2015 1:05 p.m.