No Reserve List Legacy
Legacy forum
Posted on Feb. 16, 2016, 11:58 a.m. by Monsmtg
I know this has been discussed in many places (not sure if T/O), but what do you think of no reserve list legacy? Would it work? What decks would be good?
I think he means Legacy where anything on the Reserve List is banned, which is a thing people are discussing.
I don't know anything about whether it would work or not, but I know I hate the reserve list on principle alone.
February 16, 2016 12:09 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #4
Oh. My apologies.
At first thought I don't like it very much. Removing the reserved cards shits on a lot of popular decks and may drive people away from the format.
February 16, 2016 12:13 p.m.
Yeah sorry should have clarified. I mean legacy with the RL banned. I REALLY hate the reserve list, but love eternal formats (and nonrotating standard formats (or whatever modern is)).
February 16, 2016 12:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
What's the point? Bans are a tool for managing the power levels of various decks, not for managing affordability.
February 16, 2016 12:27 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #7
It's not a ban in the sense that it is to fix the format. It's a "ban" in the sense that it's a new format with different cards in it, similar to how Force of Will is "banned" in modern.
February 16, 2016 12:37 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
So what this thread should be proposing is a new format that works on Legacy rules but with more restrictions.
Again, I ask "what's the point?" It would only exist as a theoretical poor man's Legacy unless there's sufficient justification given for why removing Reserved cards is functionally appropriate. And even then, it's still an arbitrary choice by any other standard.
February 16, 2016 12:54 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #9
It's still an awful idea. Non reserve list cards will spike and people who play legacy won't touch another "legacy-lite" format.
February 16, 2016 12:54 p.m.
EpicFreddi says... #10
I thought about this. "Modern+" to make it simple. Every card after the reserved list in one format - more affordable than legacy because no ABUR Duals but Shocks. Imagine the decks - infect with invigorate or maybe affinity with artifact lands. Original Jund with bbe and drs.
February 16, 2016 12:59 p.m.
the problem is the non reserve list staples would sky rocket in price due to demand whether it's actual demand or "demand" by starcity's standards and the like
February 16, 2016 1:09 p.m.
'The point' is that it would actually make sense to print a set like Eternal Masters if there was a format it could support. Because as it stands now all Eternal Masters does is raise prices for reserved list Legacy staples. It doesn't bring more players to the format, because the format is limited by the dual lands (and to a minor degree other reserved list cards) available. And that won't change, even if they made a Fallen Empires print run and sold the boosters for a dollar.
And don't tell me about Legacy decks that don't run dual lands, yes, I know they exist. But if you are honest to yourself you are extremely limited in your options if you want to play Legacy without any duals or other reserved list staples.
February 16, 2016 1:25 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #13
Well, the legacy players don't want to play legacy without LED, Tabernacle, City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, Survival of the Fittest, Intuition, duals of course, and all the other stuff I've missed.
Although the format seems alright (we still get FoW, Show and Tell, fetches, etc) I don't think there's a reason for banning the reserve list? What would be the basis behind that?
Edit: Metalworker also. Banning the reserve list would shut down several decks - LED gets storm and Belcher, Tabernacle gets lands (somewhat), City of Traitors and Metalworker get MUD, duals get all the 4 color decks, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary gets elves, etc etc. I feel like it'd just turn into modern with more powerful blue cards.
February 16, 2016 2:16 p.m. Edited.
I've talked about Legacy splitting into two formats before, one that uses the Reserved List (Classic Legacy), and one that doesn't.
February 16, 2016 2:28 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #15
If regular legacy was still a thing I don't think anybody would play legacy-lite.
February 16, 2016 2:32 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
I don't understand this community's obsession with proposing new formats and micromanaging perfectly functional formats and proposing that they be divided on arbitrary bases to suit special interests.
Proposals of this nature should, if they're to be taken seriously, include detailed explanations with evidence that supports their claims.
February 16, 2016 2:48 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #17
It's been five years Epoch, I thought you might have figured it out by now :) It's called entertainment.
February 16, 2016 3:34 p.m. Edited.
How is proposing such a format 'arbitrary'? In case you didn't notice, there is a new set called 'Eternal Masters' coming out in June. And most of the cards printed in that set are only legal in a format that can't grow any further since it's restricted by the reserved list. Why would they print such a set? It doesn't help anyone, all it does is that it makes reserved list cards more expensive and non-reserve list cards cheaper.
Ok, obviously they can sell overprized $10 packs because people think it's cool to take part in the Force of Will foil lottery. But the total amount of Legacy players will stay the same, so the set doesn't serve any purpose that helps the game grow. They could have just as well made another Modern Masters with a Liliana, Snapcaster or Goyf lottery.
Unless...and that's why we're here.
Also, here is a good article about the effect such a format would have, was written before the Eternal Masters rumors appeared:
Plus there is this post from Marc Rosewater:
Could mean anything, but under the current circumstances an eternal format that somehow bypasses the reserved list would make the most sense as a new constructed format.
February 16, 2016 3:46 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #19
Goyf went down like a dollar - why not print something that appeals to people other than those that play Modern?
It's arbitrary because what's the point of banning the reserve list? The way legacy works is it's supposed to be a format where you can play all the cards ever printed except the super OP ones.
I don't understand why you guys think that this new format would be good. Look at modern, it's an absolute train wreck from what I can tell. This would basically be Modern+ or legacy lite.
February 16, 2016 6:17 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #20
The reason I say "arbitrary" is that the threads that get started on this topic provide exactly none of the information you just shared. So what ends up happening is that arguments about banning Reserved List revolve entirely around how expensive Reserved cards tend to be, but they don't discuss why getting rid of those cards would produce an experience worth having or why that particular suggestion is the best starting point for a new format.
Staples will always be expensive. Most won't reach Tabernacle prices, but the idea of starting a format simply because it's cheaper is sort of a fool's pursuit. What we need to ask is "Is this new format worthwhile from an experience and sustainability standpoint?"
I think it's safe to assume the meta in Legacy Lite would be different, but would it be more appealing? Legacy players, who have already invested in actual Legacy, are unlikely to shift to a format with fewer options unless it's significantly more enjoyable. Whether that would be the case is, at best, unclear, but you'd be hard-pressed to appeal to people who can play the ABUR duals and other enablers that they should give all that up. The draw of Legacy is that it's a place where you can play all of the old cards that aren't legal in any new formats and where you're less curtailed by power restrictions. It's the Commander of 60-card formats.
In terms of sustainability, it's inherently more sustainable from a printing standpoint. The Reserved cards can't be reprinted, which means they'll always be a barrier to entry. But the other half of sustainability lies in the format's ability to rally a large player base. If nobody wants to play the format at least as much as they want to play Modern, there's little sense in creating it. It wouldn't be a significant enough alternative for players or a significant enough source of revenue for WOTC. And so we return to the previous point.
You should also be aware of the marketing power that a FOW raffle has to the Magic community.
Of course, Eternal Masters would likely sell better if news of a new and exciting format were to be released. The fact that Eternal Masters has been announced, yet no Legacy Lite format exists is an indicator to me that such a format is not immediately forthcoming (why else would they miss the opportunity to hype the community up?).
The other problem is that Modern is very much still WOTC's pet format. With Modern being such a draw, and with the community still up in arms about the Twin ban and the prevalence of Eldrazi decks (whether anyone here thinks they're unbeatable or not is not the point), it seems unlikely that WOTC would want to spawn another format to tend to.
Compounding with all of this is the question of whether Modern itself will be succeeded in time. I agree that there are merits to going backward in the release timeline and allowing older sets to be a part of some theoretical format. But many people are also asking whether the M15 border change would be a "Modern-esque" opportunity to create a new format. Such a format would be easy enough to understand and wouldn't be plagued by the insinuation that it were created as an direct answer to Magic's second-best rich kids' club. But this Modern Lite format would be plagued by the same power level limitations on Standard and Limited that are so often whined about when debating whether Modern can be further invigorated.
It's all a very complicated matter, and there's no flawless solution to the problems of Legacy. What exactly will be proposed as a "best" solution is yet to be seen.
February 16, 2016 6:18 p.m.
I don't really think that there's a good solution to the problems presented here. The mistake they made was instituting the Reserve List in the first place, disallowing for infinite growth of any format playing with cards on the list, itself. Dual lands aren't broken - they're good. Much like a lot of things in Legacy. But I think we can all agree that if they had been given the opportunity to be widely printed then we wouldn't be having much of an argument right now, would we?
The bigger problem is that they're in too deep. It's been what...20 years since the RL was created? Investors took this blatantly obvious opportunity to make long-term money and ran with it. Smart and/or lucky people since then have done what they should have to take advantage of the RL, and any format containing those cards has further deepened the problem. WOTC can't just say screw it to the RL at this point because all their trust would be broken. But they also can't just ban the cards based on financial status for the same reason.
From what I garner, the only answer seems to me to be just not playing Legacy/Vintage if you don't have a ton of expendable cash or already own the cards. In time this will mean the death of the format. I don't think much more can be said about it. It's not a good thing, but they dug themselves into this hole. Making a new "legacy" with all the reserved cards gone would be a decent replacement if the format ever were to die, but people are right in assuming that when both exist, neither will thrive.
February 16, 2016 6:29 p.m.
I just want to point some things out. If you made "No Reserve List Legacy", this would be the immediate consequences:
Storm is Dead.
Elves is Dead.
Lands is Dead.
MUD is Dead.
Sneak and Show is weakened quite a bit. It loses a tutor and some fast mana.
4c Loam / Loam Pox is weakened quite a lot. Again, it loses fast mana and a discard outlet.
Delver lists become much, much weaker without dual lands, as the amount of pain they take through Shocks, Daze and Force do all the work for their opponents.
UB Tezzerator is immediately brought to half strength, as it loses helm combo.
Burn and Infect are immediately the kings of the format, as the other decks slow down and start doing a lot more damage to themselves.
Miracles gets even better now that combo decks are weakened.
Reanimator.... probably stays the same.
The format, in essence, is completely different. This isn't legacy without the reserve list, this is a completely different animal, as none of the decks work as intended anymore.
This leads us to the discussion. Why would any current legacy player support this format? Obviously they wouldn't. Which means that non-legacy players are the driving force behind this motion.
Why do non-legacy players think that they have the right to try and warp a format that isn't theirs?
Magic isn't a universal human right. It's a hobby, and hobbies are, by definition, a luxury. They are something you do for fun. To relax. Something you spend money on to splurge, because splurging on stuff is fun. The idea that "I can't afford this format, so i'm going to try and ruin it for those who can" is absurd.
Speaking of luxury items, let's use this analogy: A car. If you want a Mercedes, but can only afford a Toyota, are you seriously going to go onto internet forums and bitch and moan about how you can't buy a Mercedes? Let's see how that sounds. "I can't afford this car, it's not fair, and it's not fair that others can! Hey, I know, how about we stop producing Mercedes, and Bentley's, and Lambo's, and Porche's, etc., and make everyone drive an Audi instead!" It's not a perfect analogy, but the point remains. No one who's already bought those cars is going to want to downgrade, and trying to force them to do so is ridiculous.
I understand the desire to use the old cards. They're powerful. They're awesome spells to sling. But if you want to play legacy, you need to get here like the rest of us got here: by saving up your money and buying in.
For some people, for whatever reason, that's just not an option. It could be you're supporting a family and can't afford it. It could be that you're fifteen years old, don't have a job, and your allowance can't cover it. That's life.
Most people have responsibilities. Most people can't afford some things. It's something that adults deal with every day, accept, and move on, and it's something the magic community need to do. Legacy is not an all inclusive format, and that's ok. Trying to murder the format by creating an almost identical one, minus a few key cards, is childish.
Do I think the reserve list should have been implemented? No. But the fact remains that without it, all of WotC's investors would have backed out decades ago as the collectors rioted. Magic would have been dead and buried long ago.
But the reserve list does exist, and it's here to stay, and that.. is that. If you want to play legacy, save up and buy in. Otherwise, stick with another format.
February 16, 2016 8:02 p.m. Edited.
It's funny to see how people react as if Magic, and especially Legacy, was a religion. I'm only pointing out possibilities and reasons why I think what I think.
When did I say that anyone it entitled to play Legacy? I couldn't care less about the accessibility of the format, I've played Magic since Antiquities came out and my collection reflects that. I'm not trying to step on your toes and take away your 'exclusive' hobby, and I'm certainly not jealous how 'the rest of you got there: by saving up money and buying in'. Because I did get there by simply opening boosters. I don't even play Legacy, but I have most of the (old) cards that would be needed to play it.
The reason why I post here is that WotCs behavior doesn't make sense to me and that's why I believe eventually they will come up with a way to circumvent the reserve list. It's always been a problem for them and printing an Eternal Masters set for a format that can't grow anymore doesn't make much sense. Whether you like that or not, it is quite likely that a new format is on the horizon. And surely most Legacy players who paid big money to get into the format will react like you - they will hate the stupid, stupid Legacy-Lite format for entitled little kids as if it was the end of (Magic) civilization. But that won't stop the format from becoming popular.
February 17, 2016 2:35 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #25
"Otherwise, stick with another format. " - yeah, I would like to do that. Idealy a format where I can play old cards without selling my kidney.
I don't even understand why a legacy player would fight against this new format - eventually those "modern+" players will turn to legacy when they can actually afford it. Befor that they can happily play in there own environment and learn all the old cards.Plus there is another upside for the current legacy players: you won't have to sell your kidney either to get a playset force.
it'll be - what, 200? Seems reasonable. (Don't quote me on that.)
February 17, 2016 4:05 a.m.
I think the legacy light format would have the opposite effect with eternal masters which is a very smaller card supply for a larger amount of legacy players and new legacy light players. The demand would be too high to support.
February 17, 2016 10:26 a.m.
If they print the ABUR duals as legendary lands (to get around the reserved list) this could be a format. However, if they do that then Legacy would be a much more affordable format than it is now and this new format wont be needed. Hell, just print legendary ABURs already :).
February 17, 2016 3:12 p.m.
EpicFreddi says... #29
If they would print legendary ABUR lands they'd have to be modern legal. Or directly banned.
February 17, 2016 4:36 p.m.
kyuuri117 & ThisIsBullshit a few things and I would like you to take this in the respectful tone it is written in.
I, a Mr. Monsmtg, a proud resident of the internet, decided to start a thread on a legacy format without the reserve list. I asked, with no bitching or moaning, what would a (a not the) format without the RL look like?
I did not say, ban the reserve list from legacy, I said create a NEW format without the list, so the car analogy is irrelevant, because I'm not asking you to give up your duals in legacy, I'm asking with a new format, which could be supported, and won't eventually be run into the ground, will be like. That's all.
Also, it would be good if legacy archetypes wouldn't be viable, because it wouldn't be legacy, it would be a different format (probably without invigorate).
Other points: non-legacy players aren't warping legacy, they're playing MDN+, which won't be legacy.
Thanks for your time, and as Phitt said, legacy isn't a religion, so please just calm down.
February 17, 2016 4:58 p.m.
EpicFreddi or in the 4-color commander decks that everyone keeps asking for.
February 17, 2016 5:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #32
@EpicFreddi: If they did print legendary ABUR duals (I highly doubt they ever would), and if they didn't want those lands in Modern, the lands would probably be in a supplemental product.
February 17, 2016 5:21 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #33
I still feel like the point of creating Legacy Lite or Modern+ is arbitrary. It honestly just re-creates the very same problem that people who usually seem interested in this sort of thing are looking to fix, the price.
So, I'll just re-use this:
Epochalyptik says... #15
"I don't understand this community's obsession with proposing new formats and micromanaging perfectly functional formats and proposing that they be divided on arbitrary bases to suit special interests.
Proposals of this nature should, if they're to be taken seriously, include detailed explanations with evidence that supports their claims."
February 17, 2016 6:18 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #34
I'll also follow up with something else. Forgive us Legacy players for getting touchy when people start talking about changing our favorite format. A lot of us play Legacy because we love the format, mostly because we love playing with the duals and many other cards on the restricted list. Needless to say, we would like to keep the format as it is in that sense and people talking about changing it because "it's so expensive, it's not fair" like the rest of us haven't paid our dues is insulting and comes off as whiny.
February 17, 2016 6:47 p.m.
Legacy players that want legacy to not change, are selfish. Players that want the bar lowered so they can get in Legacy, are selfish.
There is no reason for change to occur for either of these reasons. If changes do occur it's to benefit Wotc, and no one else directly.
With that said there IS a market at the placement between modern and legacy. No-banned modern as a supported format does not make sense as modern's lifespan hasn't even been long enough to incur any changes like these to it. It also lessens modern's market. Legacy's market is where it is and the format will only make minor changes here and there (hopefully). So the next step from a business point of view is one of two things: Remove the Reserve list, or install a new format. Wotc has been giving it time before any HUGE change like this would happen, but I think with the player-base opening with modern, this change is inevitable. And I do not believe the Reserve List will be removed.
To support this claim about the market opening up, you can clearly see many people asking for 'no-banned modern', 'no reserve list legacy', and other players starting to get more into Pauper to try and fill this gap for the format.
Again, it does make sense for a format to be filled in the space of legacy and modern, as there is demand, the reserve list prevents legacy from growing without serious powercrunch, and mostly that it would be to the benefit for WotC's profits.
February 17, 2016 8:31 p.m.
"Legacy players that want legacy to not change are selfish."
So, apparently it's selfish to want to most skill intensive format in the game to not get dumbed down and even more expensive? Oops?
I understand that legacy is expensive. But let me tell you what's gonna happen if you make "no reserve list legacy".
The first thing that is going to happen is that the current legacy staples that are not on the reserve list are all going to be bought out. It's simple logic. Now, instead of two formats needing Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Thoughtseize, etc... there are three. So on top of demand increasing, there's going to be the usual asshats who buy everything out trying to make money. Figure that almost everything in legacy AND modern doubles in price, at a minimum.
The second reason that everything is going to be bought out is because no one's going to know where to start in a new format. They're all going to figure that trying to make current staples work is the right way to start. After all, if Tarmogoyf is great in modern, and pretty good in legacy, then it must be better than pretty good in Eternal, right?
What this means is that everything that is reprinted in eternal masters that is actually useful is not going to drop in price, but actually rise as people scramble to get them. Fetch lands and shock lands especially are going to explode in price.
Once all of the staples are two-three times more expensive (i'm envisioning $50-70 dollar Steam Vents, and $150-$200 Scalding Tarns), people are going to have to figure out what decks to play. You can see my conclusions on current legacy decks above. Maybe some new combo decks pop up, maybe we just get weakened decks all around (aside from burn which will be 20% of the meta, minimum), who knows. What I do know is that good cards are good cards, and that won't be any different for eternal, so expect the buy-in expense to Eternal to be even higher than modern. The consequence to this, is of course, that actual Legacy gets more expensive too.
The next thing that happens is that people playing "Eternal" get curious about Legacy. They're going to start thinking to themselves "huh, I wonder what this deck would be like if I could actually use the ABUR duals. If I could use Gaea's Cradle. If I could use Lion's Eye Diamond." Eventually, they're going to try and get into actual legacy, and demand for reserve list cards are going to go up.
Which leads us back to the current issue. Instead of having only one expensive high powered format, were going to have two. So no, "Eternal" does not solve any problems at all, it just makes everything worse.
February 17, 2016 9:34 p.m. Edited.
That start of the basis of your argument is politically-based in how you took a small segment out of a much more inclusive piece with information directly tied to it, ie- the thesis being, "Legacy players that want legacy to not change, are selfish. Players that want the bar lowered so they can get in Legacy, are selfish.
There is no reason for change to occur for either of these reasons. If changes do occur it's to benefit Wotc, and no one else directly."
I am attempting to speak from a point that is neither beneficial for or against either side of the argument that a change should or should not happen. And that if it does, the fact for that change would be for the increase of Wizards of the Coast's profits and nothing else. Then if a changes does occur, how would it make the most sense, because that's exactly how marketing happens in a game like Magic.
February 17, 2016 10 p.m.
Also, thank you for proving my point about said segment.
February 17, 2016 10:04 p.m.
WotC makes no money on the secondary market. Aside from supplemental sets like Eternal Masters, they will not make money on the format from actual product.
As far as making money from tournaments go (which would only be Grand Prix's), introducing a new format and trying to convince people to buy in to it will make them less money than just holding modern or standard Grand Prix. This is assuming that modern doesn't just die from the recent eldrazi explosion.
You claim that people are begging for this new format; enough to support it. I don't know what kind of numbers we're talking about, but their entire argument is based on the assumption that this new format will be significantly less expensive than legacy. That will never be the case, as i've explained above.
As far as proving your point goes, don't be ridiculous. You don't have a point to prove, as you've stated above. After all, you're not on either side of this argument. Besides, unless you've got the numbers to back up your claim about a market being open for this, which I know you don't have as WotC doesn't release that information, you've done nothing but present hyperbole.
February 17, 2016 10:23 p.m.
Chaos_Rains says... #41
What some of you dont seem to see is that the new format is a way to allow people to play some of the high power cards in legacy, without needing to spend 200-600 at least, on their manabases. It also would be a format wotc can support and reprint easier than supporting legacy, which they dont anymore.
A main reason legacy is lossing support in tournaments is the expense to play, and yes this will increase the prices of staples, but they will never be as high as the ABUR dual lands are because they can be printed (even in standard sets).
Large price jumps are 1. Estimations at best and 2. Only temporary (more reprints and the market will slow down as that happens) and it is a better solution than continuing the dying format. As time passes fewer players are getting into legacy, and wotc may see a market inbetween the two. Many of you seem to have an opinion like Epochalyptiks, being "whats the point", the point being a long term replacement of legacy and yes a way for wotc to make money off the sales.
February 18, 2016 4:05 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #42
"What some of you dont seem to see is that the new format is a way to allow people to play some of the high power cards in legacy, without needing to spend 200-600 at least, on their manabases. It also would be a format wotc can support and reprint easier than supporting legacy, which they dont anymore."
TLDR; Bastardize your format so I can play
"A main reason legacy is lossing support in tournaments is the expense to play, and yes this will increase the prices of staples, but they will never be as high as the ABUR dual lands are because they can be printed (even in standard sets)."
Legacy hasn't show any signs of losing support bar SCG switching to align with WoTC's PT formats. Eteranal weekends/CFB supported GPs are all filling to and above capacity.
"Large price jumps are 1. Estimations at best and 2. Only temporary (more reprints and the market will slow down as that happens) and it is a better solution than continuing the dying format. As time passes fewer players are getting into legacy, and wotc may see a market inbetween the two. Many of you seem to have an opinion like Epochalyptiks, being "whats the point", the point being a long term replacement of legacy and yes a way for wotc to make money off the sales."
Realistically the current reserve list cards are't just "estimations" they're staying there for a long time. WotC has no interest in the secondary market and supporting a new format with the secondary market in mind has no basis as a goal of WotC.
February 18, 2016 8:19 a.m.
Topdeckermtg2016 says... #43
kyuuri117 I wholly agree with this logic. There would be a huge demand for cards used in the cross markets of modern and eternal. Shocks, goyfs, fetches, etc would all skyrocket as players migrate from legacy to eternal and new players want to enter eternal. The format would be completely new and those eternal players and card hoarders will start to buy playsets of staple cards in hopes to get the cards they need for their decks and to make money speculating on the new format. Buyouts would be a daily occurrence and cards would skyrocket that are now legal. The reserved cards would drop slightly but not drop drastically as they appeal to commander players, collectors, and still legacy/vintage players. Its essentially modern 2.0.
The ABUR duals and reserved cards are the reason the format is stagnant. No new players would want to play that format when modern exists. Unless WOTC wants to keep it as a rich kids club and for oldies. I suspect WOTC wants $$$ and would ban the reserve list. This way they have a new format that they can profit off of and control the market with reprints.
February 18, 2016 1:20 p.m.
I just posted this on an SCG article and i'm going to repost it here. Just for food for thought.
I don't think people really realize just how much money they spend on treats on a weekly basis. If you cut out your bi-weekly/daily visit to dunkin donuts or starbucks or your local coffee shop, and instead just make your morning coffee at home, you're saving between $10 and $40 dollars a week. More if you hit up coffee shops twice a day. If you just pack a sandwhich or a salad or whatever for lunch to work, instead of going to eat out, you're saving yourself another $80 a week. If you only order takeout once/go to a restaurant to eat once a week instead of twice or more, you're saving more. If you can force yourself to not buy random stuff for EDH decks or whatever, again, you're saving money. Maybe it's going to the movies once a week, it doesn't matter. This applies to anything you're currently doing that counts as a fun activity that costs money.
If you can discipline yourself to not spend money on stuff you don't actually need, you can start saving up for stuff you want. Legacy is expensive, yes. The reserve list sorta sucks, yes. But legacy is not prohibitively expensive for most people, even though they assume it is.
Two weeks of drinking coffee at home instead of out, combined with packing your own lunch, could save you enough to buy a Tropical Island. Just let that sink in.
Everyone's got responsibilities. There's money that has to go to food, kids education, etc. etc. And there's nothing you can do about that. But most people's budget's includes splurge money. And it's that money that you've got to re-prioritize if you want to get into legacy and "can't" currently afford to.
I'm not saying it's easy, and i'm not saying that everyone can afford legacy as I know some people just don't have access to that splurge money. But if you're one of the hundreds of thousands of people who DO go out for lunch multiple times a week, or DO spend a bunch of money on coffee, or smoothies, or whatever, then set yourself the goal of actually getting into legacy instead of just complaining about how expensive it is.
Everyone wants to "have their cake and eat it too", I get that. But most of the time, that's just not real life. If saving up is something you're just unwilling to do, then that's your decision. But realize that's what it is: a decision. Your decision. You are actively choosing small pleasures over legacy at that point, and as such, forefiting the right to complain about the buy in price.
TL;DR - Legacy, for the most part, is not prohibitively expensive. Most people are actively choosing to not save up for it, instead choosing to spend their money on other things. If you have splurge money, for whatever purpose, and don't spend it on legacy, that is your choice. But with that choice comes forfeiting the right to complain about the buy in price.
February 18, 2016 2:22 p.m. Edited.
I do agree with that.
I'm just going to also slide in that, the rarity, exclusiveness, and price of a card should not dictate bannings, ever.
There are a LOT of Reserved List cards that are utterly useless and aren't even very good in their limited or block constructed formats.
I could probably just make like a strawpoll and get people to vote in it to prove there is actually a market for a new format, however. People's reasonings for wanting it, do not necessarily matter, and neither does the secondary market. The only thing that would matter is, "Is there market for it?" and, "Can Wotc can make money from it?"
February 18, 2016 2:37 p.m. Edited.
EpicFreddi says... #46
EndStepTop "TLDR; Bastardize your format so I can play"
How does "creating a new format" translate into "bastardize an old format"? The idea was to create a completly new format because this "Modern+" thing is still a grey zone. atm you have nothing in between "use all old cards" and "use all new cards". This new idea would allow the usage of everything after the reserved list - and to me that sounds like a lot of fun.
February 19, 2016 5:25 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #47
Because while I can't argue what your opinion is, this format seems to be pushed simply as "legacy-B side", where you have the format legacy but with the pricier cards banned, not because it would make a new format but because people can't afford an almost identical card pool. I'm all for getting the cards in legacy to new players to exand the format, but a new format isn't the way.
February 19, 2016 8:55 a.m.
alanwescoat says... #48
Let us christen it UNRESERVED.
UNRESERVED is Legacy with the addition that anything on the Holy Reserve List of Abandoned Intellectual Property is added to the banned list.
There! Done. We have a new Eternal format, UNRESERVED!
I have no reservations about this.
As for the asshats who do buyouts. Wizards is curiously slow to do anything about this, which they could, simply by printing more high-demand cards, which they seem reluctant to do for some reason, almost as though many at Wizards are in direct collusion with many in the secondary market who are instrumental in soaking the fans of the game. Of course, this is more vehemently denied than it is obviously true. Imagine a company with a high-demand product which refuses to produce and sell the high-demand product. That is Wizards of the Coast.
February 23, 2016 12:05 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #49
alanwescoat Sweet tin foil hat, where'd you get it?
GlistenerAgent says... #2
I don't think you know what the reserve list is.
No-ban Legacy (I think this is what you mean) would be Vintage.
February 16, 2016 12:05 p.m.