would playing Lion's Eye Diamond be good in manaless dredge?
Legacy forum
Posted on Nov. 17, 2014, 7:03 a.m. by tyforthevenom
for it's ability to discard entire hand for 0 mana
Do you need mana in manaless dredge? You normally do not need any mana. In dredge decks, deck space is the limiting factor. Not to mention costs - LEDs go for like 100 a piece.
November 17, 2014 7:13 a.m.
tyforthevenom says... #4
i was thinking sideboard not for the mana but to get turn 1 discard when they say "ok you're on the play" which would normally give them a free draw coz i got nothing i can do, also i got a set of LEDs in my "oops all spells" deck (though i haven't received them yet as i only recently built the list)
November 17, 2014 7:22 a.m.
tyforthevenom says... #5
i would likely put them there in place of my Ashen Rider's
November 17, 2014 7:23 a.m.
tyforthevenom says... #6
there's also the fact i can use a "draw a card" spell or ability in the deck then use led to discard my hand (that happens to have a Narcomoeba in it) dredge up my Golgari Thug from the draw resolving and hardcast it to put the narcomoeba on top of my library giving me extra narc trigs
November 17, 2014 8:12 a.m.
julianjmoss says... #7
I've seen lists run them but they waste a spot in the deck and reduce efficiency. You would be better off running Phantasmagorian
November 17, 2014 9:29 a.m.
tyforthevenom says... #8
I'm Running both my deck doesn't really need 4 Balustrade Spy or Greater Mossdog nor does the sideboard need 4 Ashen Rider
November 17, 2014 9:50 a.m.
Lion's Eye Diamond is what you normally play in Dredge lol. It's a much more consistent deck than Manaless Dredge, plus you get more hate cards to sideboard with.
Here is an example of a normal Dredge deck with Lion's Eye Diamond. Notice how it plays Breakthrough, Careful Study, and Faithless Looting, which allows it to dig deeper than Manaless Dredge. You can dump dredge enablers into the yard, while simultaneously getting dredge triggers.
November 17, 2014 4:23 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #10
i've seen normal dredge aswell as manaless dredge and janky dredge (which was more focused on reanimation)
November 17, 2014 5:56 p.m.
The only reason to play Manaless Dredge is because you don't have or can't afford Lion's Eye Diamond. You get a much faster and more resilient deck by playing mana sources, instead of having to rely on going second.
November 17, 2014 6:01 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #12
i don't have and cannot afford the LANDS plus i like the ability to combo if needed
November 17, 2014 6:05 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #13
specifically the Cephalid Coliseum which for some reason are expensive everywhere i've looked
November 17, 2014 6:06 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #14
How about Grave Titan? Gets my zombie tokens without bridges, a problem that happens when they sac a creature or chump or recur Batterskull
November 18, 2014 12:02 p.m.
tyforthevenom I might suggest play testing and seeing how these things work out for you. Yes it's good to discuss, but in the end, play testing is the be all, end all for this discussion. If it works for you, the way you want to play it and you win, that's all that matters.
November 18, 2014 1:26 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #16
grave titan is kind of meh in manaless. you are playing an all in strategy so playing a maindeck card to deal with bridge removal is silly. You are going for a fast kill and will use cabal therapy in that match up to pull out stoneforge or just race him. Flame-Kin Zealot is a really good finisher.
November 18, 2014 1:33 p.m.
Yah the lands can be expensive if you don't have Mana Confluence already.
You can still combo off as early as turn one.
- Play land and Lion's Eye Diamond.
- Tap the land to cast Breakthrough or Faithless Looting.
- Activate Lion's Eye Diamond in response, discarding your hand.
- The draw spell resolves. You dredge back Golgari Grave-Troll and other dredgers.
- If you hit 3x Narcomoebas, 2x Bridge from Below, Flame-Kin Zealot, and Dread Return (either from discarding to Lion's Eye Diamond or dredging), you flash back Dread Return on Flame-Kin Zealot, make 6 zombie tokens, give them all +1/+1 and haste, then swing for 21.
Granted, that's an absolute nut draw. But, more often than not, you can go for the turn two. The other thing to consider is you don't just lose to a Tormod's Crypt or other graveyard hate post-sideboard. That's because you just play another draw spell and get the engine going again.
November 18, 2014 3:22 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #18
I know but versatility is needed imho coz right now playing the deck makes Dread Return feel like a dead card in the deck unless I intend to combo off
November 18, 2014 3:33 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #19
Ty dredge acts like a combo deck most of the time
November 18, 2014 3:43 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #20
i know it's listed as a combo deck but i mean my "Balustrade Spy Flayer of the Hatebound Golgari Grave-Troll" that can insta win me the game or instantly lose it because if any part of it gets countered after i resolve spy's ability i am decked
November 18, 2014 3:54 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #21
Am I'm arguing that you are playing in all in style deck and approaching it the wrong way. You are trying to cover your behind against hate by removing the power from the deck. If you are that hesitantbto play the deck this way you should listen to sylvanos and play dredge with mana
November 18, 2014 4:22 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #22
you misunderstand, i want an out for when they stop the "all in" approach
November 18, 2014 4:47 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #23
Which decklists are strong against manaless dredge? So i can proxy the lists to test against
November 18, 2014 7:47 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #24
Any type of storm list is strong against Dredge. However the strength of dredge is like affinity in modern. If there is enough hate in sideboards you'll lose and if there isn't then you'll win. With the exception of Storm and other non interactive fast combo decks you can beat almost anything. I actually like Dredge right now it is really good against all types of Delver and Stoneblade.
November 18, 2014 9:39 p.m.
tyforthevenom says... #25
so dredge and affinity are both under the same conditions of winning where if people prepare for it it's doomed if not it's gonna win? (i got 3 decks ready for GP Lille and liking dredge most due to my zambie obsession)
November 18, 2014 9:53 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #26
Dredge is probably better off because it has the ability to win by destroying said piece of hate or before it comes down while Affinity doesn't really have much of a shot against Stony Silence or Shatterstorm they have no choice but to make there opponent have the hate or kill them. Dredge, with mana, has the ability to destroy offending permanents or randomly as I did once in testing, hard cast Griselbrand because Miracles had no force of clock. That was rather bizarre but whatever.
Anyway, you have to bank on your opponents going light on hate. Generally two pieces of hate won't really do too much as you should be able to fight them but 4+ can be an issue. Leyline of the Void is probably the biggest problem because you can't decay it and can't win before it comes down.
November 18, 2014 10:02 p.m.
I have run both the manaless and mana versions of dredge and I'll have to just mention that having mana in dredge makes a huge difference. Manaless dredge can be extremely strong but it takes multiple turns to begin going off. As for the cost of lands being expensive for the deck I would have to disagree... Cephalid Coliseum is merely a $2 land, and if you've got a set of Lion's Eye Diamond you're already laughing at the expensive cost to this deck. City of Brass would be the other land you more or less require for the deck and it's around $5 a piece as well which isn't too bad.
Just my two cents
November 21, 2014 11:04 a.m.
Technically, if you put Lion's Eye Diamond in a Manaless Dredge deck, it automatically becomes Landless Dredge, because there still aren't any lands, but there is mana to be used.
tyforthevenom says... #2
here's my list
November 17, 2014 7:04 a.m.