Did the Tarkir time shift affect only the plane of Tarkir, or the entire multiverse?
Lore forum
Posted on March 31, 2015, 5:21 a.m. by JexInfinite
Because time travel is a very complicated matter, and Wizards has glossed over it.
If the shift affects only Tarkir, what about other planeswalkers who have moved to different planes?
If it affects the entire multiverse, who freed the Eldrazi? Sarkhan wasn't there. Sarkhan was never there.
Are they doing a Doctor Who, where Sarkhan was meant to travel back in time and save Ugin.
This time travel is a god damn mess.
I'm not sure why Bolas killing Ugin would be a problem. Urza died pre-mending, and Bolas didn't do that great a job in the first place, considering Ugin was able to get inside Sarkhan's head long after he died.
But anyway I think it's supposed to only effect people on the plane, not Planeswalkers. A copy of Sarkhan still goes around and does everything Sarkhan does outside of Tarkir somehow (Although they were very vague about that), and I think Sorin doesn't remember what happened in KTK when he found Ugin dead. The most recent UR has him 'walking to Tarkir for the first time ever and waking Ugin up, so I think the Sorin that was on the most recent card doesn't exist anymore.
March 31, 2015 6:18 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #4
As TolarianCommunityCollege has said, it makes absolutely no sense for Bolas to not make sure Ugin was properly dead. He mortally wounded him and left. Wut. Dumb.
March 31, 2015 6:33 a.m.
DeathChant17 says... #5
Tarkir exists all by itself as a separate plane. I would assume it would affect only tarkir, because as far as I know Sarkhan is the only one to have planeswalked from tarkir aside from Ugin. And apparently Ugin dud that before his battle with Nicol Bolas, which was after trapping Eldrazi. So at this point I'd say just tarkir. Sarkhan has the same past. He simply went 'back to the future' after saving Ugin.
I think, lol.
March 31, 2015 6:45 a.m.
ninjask123 says... #6
My problem with Ugin dying was after comparing these two 'walker deaths. Urza was beheaded, and even that didn't kill him. He basically had to will himself to death. Why would Ugin will himself to death instead of just planeswalking away? It didnt sound like he was so badly injured that even if he healed, he'd be unable to act. He also had the Eldrazi to deal with, so we know he had an agenda.
And, yeah, Bolas was acting a bit out of character
Either way, it sounds like there technically is a half answer about Sarkhan... we just need more details about this 'copy' to make it make sense.
March 31, 2015 7:49 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #7
I think the actual answer is that Wizards decided to do time travel, and didn't think about it too much, hence the many plot holes and errors.
March 31, 2015 7:52 a.m.
Bolas had clearly did a lot of work in preparation for this battle with Ugin.
- Convinced Yasova to lure Ugin out.
- Discovered a method to control all the Dragons of Tarkir simultaneously.
- Put himself into the battle. Something he rarely does (except against the most formidable foes) as he usually relies on minions to do his bidding.
When comparing all of that to other PW deaths pre-mending, I'd say it's right on par... and probably took more effort than some.
As for why Bolas didn't stick around to ensure Ugin was dead... Really... would you stick around after taking control of all the Dragons on the Plane and forcing them to attack their leader? - After sustaining what injuries he would have received in the battle, it is likely he would not survive when the dragons turned their focus on him.
My question would be in regards to how powerful Ugin is after the Mending. - Bolas in known to have escaped much (if not all) of the effects of the Mending by hiding on a secluded Plane of his own design/creation. - Did the protection of the Crucible provide any appreciable protection from the effects of the Mending? - If he is weaker now, is he still strong enough to deal with the Eldrazi like he did the first time?
March 31, 2015 8:46 a.m.
JexInfinite - The time travel that Sarkhan did ONLY affects Tarkir. The timeline of other planes is unaffected unless a planeswalker went to Tarkir in the 1280 years since Sarkhan put Ugin in the Crucible of the Spirit Dragon. They have said this numerous times on numerous platforms that the rest of the multiverse is largely unaffected and that this doesn't mean a full ret-con of the Magic storyline.
March 31, 2015 9:02 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #10
Bolas is probably barely affected by the mending, because he's one of the most powerful existences. He would surely have found a way around the mending.
As for all the planning, they thought up a reason why Ugin was to fight Bolas, but didn't think of anything past that.
March 31, 2015 9:03 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #11
JWiley129 But that means Sarkhan was never born, and couldn't have been used by Bolas to awaken the Eldrazi. So who did it?
It's likely that Wizards will not even care about that and pretend that Sarkhan was there anyway, meaning that the Sarkhan that is there at the moment shouldn't exist, but does. That causes a lot of issues.
March 31, 2015 9:05 a.m.
JexInfinite - Doug Beyer did a Tumblr post exactly about this, while Sarkhan was never born, someone named Sarkhan was in the Eye when Chandra and Jace were there to unleash the Eldrazi. Someone named Sarkhan helped Ajani planeswalk on Jund. I can't link it right now, but you can search Doug Beyer's Tumblr for that exact post.
March 31, 2015 9:11 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #13
What a lazy way out of the situation. Why was there someone identical to Sarkhan on that plane if Sarkhan was never born? This is why you don't do time travel. Unless you plan it from the very beginning, or execute it very well (See one of those old books), it will create plot holes and lore fails.
March 31, 2015 9:18 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #14
Perhaps the Hedron's magic was able reconcile these paradoxes. They imprison hungry transdimensional supergods, so I'll bet you they can cover WotC's butts when they make goof-ass story decisions.
March 31, 2015 9:54 a.m.
JexInfinite - WotC didn't want this to turn into another Mending and ret-con the past 10 years of Magic story, and they made sure that this method of time travel a.) is localized and near impossible to replicate and b.) doesn't affect the multiverse at large. I disagree that this is lazy and it's likely the best case scenario for what they were trying to do.
And I guarantee that if this DID turn into a huge ret-con, that you would be even more upset that a thousand years of Magic history was changed.
March 31, 2015 10:15 a.m.
This is my two cents:
The way I see things. This time travel should only affect Tarkir, because if we look at the theory that 'makes time travel possible' it says that history isn't linear. By this definition, both of the versions of Tarkir (Khans and Dragons) run parallel.
I say this because if one decides to say that Khans never happened (because of this change in the past) Sarkhan never has any of the issues (ahem Sarkhan the Mad) that would lead to him MAKING the change in the past.
If instead, we accept that history (and time) is not linear, then the simple cause and effect rules work. Old history says dragon's disappear with Ugin's death (Khans). Sarkhan goes bonkers, does what he does, then goes back in time to fix it, and new history (Ugin lives, dragons thrive on Tarkir (Dragons)) is what becomes of it. In this theory, the two histories run parallel until Sarkhan makes the change, when the histories re-converge, and the future continues from that point.
The same is true for all of the other 'walkers effected by the change. Their pasts will hold content from the old history, and their present and future selves will reconcile with the changes that are made.
March 31, 2015 10:20 a.m.
WOTC made the assumptive storyline decision that no planeswalkers traveled to, left OR interacted with Tarkir since the Ugin/Bolas fight. As such, the timeline change only effects Tarkir since nobody's been around to be affected by it.
March 31, 2015 10:23 a.m.
JA14732 - WotC has said nothing to that effect, they just said that the personal history of some planeswalkers would be affected if they visited Tarkir. They never said that no planeswalkers had visited Tarkir in the 1280 years since Bolas beat Ugin.
March 31, 2015 10:48 a.m.
Other than Sorin and Sarkhan it does seem that way though.
And for the question why would ugin not have just planeswalked away, I don't think he could. When Bolas left, Ugin was defeated and basically dead. He wouldn't have had the strength to planeswalk. In last week's uncharted realms, even after the thousands of years of recuperation, Ugin says he'd have to wait until he was strong enough to travel
March 31, 2015 11:02 a.m.
asasinater13 says... #20
I don't see it as lazy on wotc part. I see it as "the past of tarkir is now an alternate to the present that sarkhan is the only survivor of". Like, sarkhan exists in this reality by being there when it was created
March 31, 2015 11:47 a.m.
MindAblaze says... #21
Here's the tumblr post JWiley129 was talking about.
I think it's as simple as what samk125 said. You need Sarkhan the Mad for this to all go down, so he has to exist. The question becomes what happens to the other timeline?
March 31, 2015 12:24 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #22
Sarkhan experienced the other timeline and was in the right place to survive it, for everything outside of tarkir there is only one time line. Sarkhan is just kind of an enigma in the universe because he was never born but he exists in it. Kind of like once you've been planeswalking you exist yo they multiverse in a way that can't be ret conned
March 31, 2015 3:45 p.m.
@MindAblaze - To answer your question, the other timeline stops once Sarkhan enters the portal to go back in time and rescue Ugin. It's as simple as that.
The two timelines run parallel, the Khans timeline has no future beyond Sarkhan entering the portal, and the Dragons timeline runs parallel from the point of Ugin's death (or salvation by Sarkhan) until when Sarkhan walks out of the portal after saving Ugin and returning to what would be the point in time in the other timeline, when he walked in.
March 31, 2015 5:01 p.m.
ninjask123 says... #24
No, I think I like the localized time shift concept.
The thing to keep in mind is that a multiverse refers to different universes, so it's possible sarkhan did go to those other planes and do what he did, and still reset Tarkir.
Yeah, he wasn't born in this version of Tarkir, but he was on old Tarkir, and so has the ability to still start all that trouble elsewhere in the Multiverse. Its possible that, as a Planeswalker who left his plane, changes on his plane apply to him no longer.
It's also possible Old Tarkir exists as a plane- its just hidden or already dead or a pocket dimension of New Tarkir.
Hmm... a localized time travel event is still hard to justify, but if you really stretch it, it can kinda make sense sort of maybe.
Look man, I dunno. Time travel is hard, and everyone has a different idea for how it works.
March 31, 2015 8:10 p.m.
Time spiral 2.0 CONFIRMED!!!
KIDDING, Plz dont kill me! =n.n=
March 31, 2015 10 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #27
to sum up:
Khans Timeline Tarkir stopped existing once Ugin was saved, Sarkhan became a temporal paradox because he wasn't born in the Dragons of Tarkir timeline, but ALSO HAS to exist because he was the deciding factor in creating the Dragons timeline.
As such Sarkhan exists despite not having been born. He was on Alara and on Zendikar. He still worked for Bolas far as we can ascertain.
Also while Planeswalkers who visited Tarkir or ascended on Tarkir during the time between Fate Reforged and KTK/DTK would be changed by visiting or living on a different Tarkir the OVERALL affect on the stories we've seen are nonexistant, because none of those hypothetical planeswalkers were involved in any of the blocks prior to Tarkir Block, and would be VERY unlikely to do anything now that would require a retcon of the stories that have happened.
April 4, 2015 12:42 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #28
oh also because it seems like some people might be confused about this, Even though Ugin is alive in the Dragons of Tarkir Timeline he's been trapped healing in the Hedron Cocoon on Crucible of the Spirit Dragon for 1280 years since being saved in Fate Reforged
As shown on DTK's Tormenting Voice Ugin has been out of commission until right now in the DTK storyline
Meaning that no, he would not have been able to stop the Eldrazi from being released.
April 4, 2015 12:49 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #29
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Bolas visits the sight where he defeated Ugin often as he holds it to be his greatest trophy so why isn't he affected?
April 6, 2015 10:59 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #30
.....where has it been said that he visits Tarkir?
April 7, 2015 11:44 a.m.
Madronebass says... #32
I believe I read somewhere on this site that a certain flavor text in DTK hinted that Narset may have been using Sarkhan's name until their timelines realigned, therefore being the "copy" that was referred to in this thread... Wish i could remember which card :(
April 16, 2015 3:34 p.m.
3 sets in the block? 3 sides of a triangle! elumanatie timspiral confirmed!
ninjask123 says... #2
I dont think I got this far in thinking about it- I stopped when I realized Nicol Bolas somehow killed Ugin pre-mending. it shouldnt really be doable by that point.
But yeah, the whole Zendikar thing is definitely another plothole, unless someone can make sense of this.
March 31, 2015 5:34 a.m.