Interesting stuff about Narset Transcendent
Lore forum
Posted on March 17, 2015, 12:38 p.m. by 6tennis
So I read an FAQ page for DTK on the MTG website, and someone asked if Narset had autism. Look at the response.
Interesting, right? Who would have thought?
mooffalosystema says... #3
EDIT:
.... He left Zendikar, and probably everything else, to be nommed by Eldrazi on a whim. So Sorin very likely suffers from clinical depression, or at least bouts of it.
Pretty sure I wrote that, smeh.
March 17, 2015 1:28 p.m.
Ah, thank you for enlightening me mooffalosystema. Planeswalkers are really interesting, there's so much we don't know about them.
March 17, 2015 1:41 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #5
Also for the record, sarkhan was mad due to the voice of ugin talking to him and because of nicol bolas. He is completely same afterwards in the storyline
March 17, 2015 1:42 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #6
"i am autistic myself and it would mean the absolute world to me to know that a character in a game i care deeply about is like me, and many other folks."
I saw similar things said about Alesha, Who Smiles at Death and it just seems so silly to me. I can't wrap my head around the fact that there are people out there who feel validated and touched that a character with a similarity to them is depicted in a fantasy card game. Can anyone shed some light on this and tell me if I'm wrong for finding it comical.
March 17, 2015 2:11 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #8
It's the same reason why people were over the moon about being able to change your skin color in Pokemon X and Y. Personally, I don't get it, but that's just because I believe everyone is equal and you shouldn't have to worry about something like equal representation of your statistical subset in a fictional population.
March 17, 2015 2:31 p.m.
mooffalosystema says... #9
Sure, Sarkie is fine now. Because that's how he's written and you can't contest published canon and it's magic.
But if you think about it, you don't just walk away from being forced to being insane by two mind reading near-deity beings having a bar fight in your brain for few decades over the pissing rights.
He's going to wake up screaming for years to come.
All planeswalkers are basically just archetypes and existing as something as simple as "I'm the gal who's supposed to personify red mana for a card game" just won't work without couple of mental disorders in the mix.
At least it makes them interesting, even if it is uninspiring way to make actors.
Aand we got Phyrexia out of the whole mess.
Long Live Phyrexia
Rasta_Viking29At it's core, core?
It's the human condition bro, we all want to be part of something, to feel validated, it all derives us from being part of clan-groups and cave-dwellers where belonging to a group meant survival.
And then our minds evolved responding "This feels good" associations with similarity with others.
You might not on a perfectly conscious level understand that, but it's the same triggers that makes you think another group is better than other, i.e. supporting your favorite sports team instead of the other one because you feel familiarity with it falls in the same category.
Belong, you'll survive longer.
Of course, not everyone feels the same way and it's always individual on how much you are affected by it.
A polarizing condition like autism, or any other long term defining physical disease, especially slight cases of, can make this effect more intense and something people seek out even more.
It's the reason why sports are so popular and rack insane profits in the process.
March 17, 2015 2:35 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #11
What about Nissa Revane? I mean, she left her world behind just as hard as Sorin did. Why don't we say anything about her? Just because she didn't actively have a hand in the Eldrazi scheme didn't mean she didn't give a shit that her homeworld was about to be torn apart by nigh-immortal deitic beings.
A victim of operant conditioning, maybe?
March 17, 2015 2:43 p.m.
mooffalosystema says... #12
Don't you talk shit about my waifu m8 or i'll rek u.
Actually Nissa pretty much CAUSED the latest Eldrazi shoopwhooping with full knowledge of what was going to happen when she cracked that Hedron.
I'd side with suicidal with fair chunk of "I'm taking everyone with me!", whatever the clinical term is, regardless of what she said.
Official explanation why she popped that stone was; "Maybe Eldrazi won't care about Zendikar anymore and if I release them and they'll leave even though Sorin, they guy who captured them in the first place, just told me Eldrazi love this place better than anywhere else."
So it isn't too far fetched to call her clinically retarded.
March 17, 2015 3:11 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #13
mooffalosystema that makes sense. There's probably some ying yang thing going on inside us with the desire to belong and the struggle to be unique, standout, or superior. Some people are more out of balance than others.
March 17, 2015 3:12 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #14
Sometimes, I really think that they make the characters more developed than they should be.
The reason we play MTG is not to discuss different types of sexuality or whatever, we play to enjoy and have fun and (sometimes) make new friends and gain money. I don't think that we should feel obliged to bring this topic into a card game. I mean, does it matter if Narset is autistic or if Alesha is trans-gender? Does it make any difference? Will it change how much we play her? I honestly think that we should just leave it an open conversation and not declare the characters anything, just homo sapiens, and nothing else, to avoid (slightly awkward) conversations like the one I am participating in now.
March 17, 2015 4:23 p.m.
http404error says... #15
"Sometimes, I really think that they make the characters more developed than they should be."
Wat.
Also you sound like this guy.
March 17, 2015 4:42 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #16
Hahaha.
I can't tell if you mean that statement on a serious or comical note though...
March 17, 2015 4:43 p.m.
mooffalosystema says... #17
Really? They are basically as cardboard thin as they can be to possess any personality in the first place so they can slap "Legendary" rule on the cards that would be too powerful with it.
Simplest response here is to say "Well, why did you take part in the first place then?" and that's kinda valid, no one but you is forcing you to take part in the conversation you don't want to have.
As a crude comparison, this makes you the kinda person in the crowd who pulls out a gun, pops a few rounds into the air saying he does not want to be in the crowd and would very much like to leave it now.
Valid, but you could have just left the crowd without pulling the gun.
Someone having this, or any other conversation about anything, really is not your problem unless you make it your problem.
Does it matter? Hell no. Does it make difference? No.
Then why? For the glory of Satan, of course. This is the internet and we can have these pointless discussions if we want to because someone obviously found it interesting enough to ask and had spare time to do so.
And then I could go on to point out that Ajani isn't homo sapiens, goddammit lol.
March 17, 2015 4:49 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #18
Tbh mooffalosystema about your first post Narset being autistic is cool and noteworthy because none of those things you mentioned for Urza, Lilly, Chandra, and Ajani are quantifiable mental disorders that people are discriminated against, you're reading into probably neurotypical character flaws and ascribing mental illness to them. Also Sarkhan isn't good representation for neuroatypical ppl because he was just "generic nondescript crazy". he was basically the stereotype of what stupid people think mentally ill people are like.
and @FAMOUSWATERMELONYeah... not everyone plays the game just for the mechanics, a huge part of why I got into the game was the style and art and worlds of MTG. That said the two concepts of playing a game and talking about stuff like sexuality and mental stuff isn't mutually exclusive. Why can't a card game challenge us to talk about deeper issues?
and like, I get it that for some representation doesn't matter, they don't care less that Narset is autistic or Alesha is trans and so forth, but for the people that do and live with the bullshit that comes with being autistic or trans it's really cool. And like, why not? Why not make a character something other than cis, neurotypical, straight, white, and/or male? Idk I think it could be cool to see more diverse characters.
March 17, 2015 8:30 p.m.
mooffalosystema says... #19
Well of course, it's not WotC is making characters specifically with those ailments and I'm assuming they do from the evidence of what they do and how they act.
There's no proof written anywhere and there never will be.
No, wait, there is.
Garruk is mad, and he's on a quest to murder as many planeswalkers as he can because that sounds fun to him. It's the shtick WotC is/was using to get people interested in the game as listed in Intro Packs, the underlying narrative to play MTG. Get good or Garruk gets you.
Those mental illnesses do, however, describe the lot above pretty accurately as generalization and I don't associate a negative stigma with them.
Urza, pretty uniformly, disregarded basic human values, ran a school where failure to qualify resulted in death and/or mutilation and did conduct large scale genetic experiments in a population group without oversight with untested methods to get his kicks because he thought it might work over the course of few hundred years, all the while playing an tyrant.
That's not something a "healthy" individual does, much less institutionalizes. Calling Urza a psychopath with problems understanding basic empathy sounds pretty valid to me.
Never mind him actually being okay with the ideas Yawgmoth was a proponent of, including and not limited to, Phyrexia, when faced with an explanation WHY Yawgie was invading.
Broken individual, good character in a game about playing cards.
Chandra is the manifestation and the personification of red mana in the game, she has complete disregard for anything even resembling law and order. At the very least, she's very, very dangerous individual for any structured society in proximity or even on the same plane and disagreeing with her results in casualties.
She isn't a fully fledged person, she's a cardboard thin stereotype WotC slapped together to stand as posterchild for one type of mana.
She would be under heavy medication in some mental institution if she would happen to live in modern society because she is a danger to the society, no matter what the exact name of her disorder is.
And my point with Sarkhan was he might have not been mad, but he is now, thanks to the stuff he was forced to experience.
Regardless, you can see how this stuff hits very close to the mark, yes? Even without me listing every planeswalker individually and why I associate these conditions with them. They'd all be pretty woody and boring actors in MTG-verse if they didn't have those flaws however, they add flavor and usually it's the thing that defines them, after all.
And then there are certain some planeswalkers who just come off as mary-sue inserts. cough Gideon cough
It's head-canon, naturally, but it's not without a cause or evidence towards it and it's fun to "diagnose" the poor suckers because no-one gets hurt in the process.
March 17, 2015 9:22 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #20
I don't think we're on the same page here.
Narset is noteworthy because she suffers from a real disorder that people actually live with, not generic fantasy delusional crazy like Garruk and Sarkhan. It adds to her character, and gives people with autism a person to associate with.
She is noteworthy because she is an example of an autistic character who isn't played for laughs, and her mental disorder doesn't make her villainous like with Sarkhan and Garruk or Urza.
Tbh I don't doubt they have some kind of legitimate issues but I don't think they're worth talking about because they feed into the same goddamn stereotype of the violent psychotic or that someone very UW in nature is some kind of sociopath.
(also I don't think violent anarchism is a mental disorder, idk Chandra actually has a mental illness.)
March 17, 2015 9:52 p.m.
mooffalosystema says... #22
Nope, but that's a given, this is the internet and no two people are on the same page and rarely show the effort for it happen.
She's a fantasy character with a made up fault played that HAPPENS to have real world counterpart precisely for laughs and to sell moar cardboard, so, you know...
You are defending WotC for writing Narset as an person with Autism.
Because it gives autistic people someone to positively associate with.
The term you are looking for at this point is "Immoral Marketing Ploy".
She isn't real actual living, breathing, person you should associate with in the first place. She's a marketing device.
I dare someone to tell me what is the background story and childhood of Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver from the top of their head, since that's what Narset is, minus the autism hook to sell him/her/it, a shoe-in colorfix planeswalker that the set needed to work in R&D.
Narset having autism as a bait to elicit a positive response from those with actual condition isn't good storytelling nor a anything you should associate with positively.
WotC are immoral dicks for targeting groups with mental conditions in their marketing.
But we already know WotC are immoral dicks who market pieces of cardboard with pretty pictures for vastly inflated prices.
I would not be overly over the mountain WotC is showing an effort towards special interest groups, they aren't exactly in the charity business.
So it's all moot and I don't want to get dragged into some vitriolic Social Justice Warrior debate over it that sours the atmosphere. So, I concede, you win an internet and this subcontext isn't conducive to further discussion anyway unless it happens somewhere else under separate heading.
In the end, it's all the same to me who has what, or does not have, as long as they are well written.
And the evil guys in MTG tend to be vastly more interesting, with all their non-specific, unlisted faults and failures than yet another Grey Eminence roaming about because they needed another planeswalker to fit the colors and had to wrench in a couple of stories somewhere or Mary-Sue's ruining everyone's day with being perfect.
Urza isn't villainous, btw, far from it, that's the beauty of him as a character.
March 17, 2015 11:29 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #24
Jeez, this is intense.
But I have a friend who's brother is autistic, so I appreciate that Wizards is willing to shed light on the fact that every human isn't perfect. Not trying to be pessimistic, pretty much anybody has some sort of issue (that's why we are not all perfect) and just because planeswalkers can go between planes doesn't mean that they don't have some challenges in their brain, as seen. Even valuable CEOs have disorders like dyslexia, and some millionaires haven't graduated high school, even though they've written famous books and made great companies.
Also, this is a good move on Wizards part, because it gives autistic players some one to be somewhat familiar, even though they don't exist. And people like me who are fortunate enough not to have a serious mental disorder shouldn't give a shit if Narset Transcendent is autistic, because the card is broken.
Besides, we don't tell autistic people that their imaginary friends don't exist. Don't tell autistic people that Narset is just ink on a card with a made-up backstory in a geeky game where you play paper with symbols that show magical spells and creatures. And if you would do that, no offense, but you should pick up your ramen-fed ass from your mom's basement and learn to respect people. If that came off rash, I'm sorry, but there isn't an excuse. Don't be an asshole, the world has enough of those. I've been an asshole quite a few times, and it doesn't turn out good. And if you're going to be an asshole to autistic people, pick yourself up, say sorry, and do something valuable to this world.
Again, my apologies for coming off rash, but as LSV said, sometimes, MTG players aren't the nicest towards women or disabled players. That's why you don't see that many women or disabled players at LGSs. And no, this isn't a rant on assholes.
Now that that's off my shoulders, I'm going to sleep knowing I helped inform people on how to be better. And if I failed, at least I tried, I guess.
March 17, 2015 11:45 p.m.
I don't know whether the card portrays a disabled person or not but, supposing it is, its no more a "marketing ploy" than the portrayal of Haze Frog is to toads. Also, just to be clear about a basic fact about the economy of Magic: The Gathering, the card game we all know and love, you are aware that the "vastly inflated prices" you mention actually happens in a secondary market entirely unrelated to them whatsoever in terms of benefit? Just to make sure this conversation doesn't go off a cliff where we're talking out of our asses, its worth clearing up.
March 17, 2015 11:57 p.m.
BlastercoolWeird says... #27
hmmm from what I know of Urza he's a villain protagonist. If I recall correctly He carried out a eugenics program to create Gerrard Capashen. And by the end of his story he declares Phyrexia everything he wanted to do with the world. Because grimdark morally-gray bullshit isn't utterly done to death, right? Such a shame I can't read more about this vile sociopath /sarcasm
Also, thinking on it, I actually really like Gideon. He has his flaws and weakness, no less than Jace or Nicol Brolas. Or any of the Pre-Mending Planeswalkers.
I can respect a guy who would face down Elder God with a few strips of leather and his bare fists.
Anyway, nice cynicism about a card game you ostensibly play. Also, Narset's portrayal isn't for laughs tho. SwaggyMcSwagglepants put it best.
March 18, 2015 12:18 a.m.
mooffalosystema says... #28
Selling printed cardboard for 5 bucks a booster for the A4 is inflated prices.
I'm perfectly aware WotC does not set the re-sale values, yes.
I'm talking about the over the counter booster prices. Those are whack in any sense of the word. Re-sale prices are "fine" with couple of exceptions that are not defining.
It's cheaper to buy anything playable on re-sale than buy the boosters/pre-mades.
When I talk about vastly inflated prices, I do mean the boosters, not the re-sale prices.
Average production value of booster is about a cent in dollars for the large print sets, ergo me calling it inflated and WotC greedy.
C'est la vie.
March 18, 2015 12:19 a.m.
Thanks for your expert market analysis. We look forward to the volumes of the walls of text you call an opinion to illustrate for us what would be far more reasonable and fair prices for their products.
March 18, 2015 12:31 a.m.
SimicPower says... #30
But... WotC is a company. They aren't going to sell boosters for the cost of production or they wouldn't make any money. A company trying to make any money isn't greedy, it's just how the market works.
March 18, 2015 3:04 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #31
Why do people feel connected with fantasy characters? Because their minority groups are being represented. People among minority groups constantly see on a regular basis their group being underrepresented and discriminated against. Having their group get represented or even acknowledged by a majority group of power makes those people of that minority group feel like they are actually apart of the society they live it. And let me tell you this, the desire to belong, is a very very strong one.
As for why WotC does it, it is for a fair few amount of reasons. These are no means all of them.
- Create a good image for themselves.
- Teach the younger players about respect for cultural diversity.
- Create a more welcoming atmosphere for all different types of players.
- Increase the size of their player base by accommodating for a lot of different aspects.
WotC does something very important when creating material for these minority groups: And that is to just casually put material in for them, and not advertise it. The minority groups will find them without much trouble, but the majority groups, who are the bulk of your consumer base, will get alienated from the game if you advertise the material for the minority groups too loudly. Resulting in a hindrance to sales due to a decreased interest from the majority group.
I personally did not know that Narset had Autism, though I can see the reference points and it developed a certain aspect of Narset as a character. However, I certainly doubt that the other planeswalkers have mental disorders. They're more likely to have
personality disorders, but not mental disorders.
March 18, 2015 5:22 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #32
Femme I agree with all those things but I feel like Wizards feels obliged to make their characters of all different sexualities and medical conditions. I just don't feel like this is the place to have this conversation though (and by this place I don't mean the forum, I mean MTG). Eh. Maybe it's just me.
March 18, 2015 7:46 a.m.
so....you don't want us talking about MTG characters on an MTG-related forum? well, I guess I should get on my PS4 group and talk about MTG there instead!
on topic, you know, sometimes it's the people with 'quirks' that influence the world. eh, just look at albert einstein!
March 18, 2015 8:09 a.m.
I've worked with many members of several different disabled communities and I have yet to meet one that feels like disabilities and those with them should be swept from the public view. In fact that remains a chronic problem seemingly across all of them.
March 18, 2015 12:22 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #36
@6tennis Magic players. that's what happened here.
March 18, 2015 12:22 p.m.
TheGreatLiar says... #37
The difference with narset and alesha is the characters are relatable because of the issues being highlighted. I don't think I've ever met somebody that related to the story of garruk because they were screwed over by this one goth woman and decided they had to slaughter everybody that shared some attribute with her. Nobody relates to liliana because of their shared narcissism.
People relate to alesha because she is trans, a neutral quality that people who play this game deal with, and would like represented as at least neutral. She is also a likable character.
People relate to narset for much the same reason. Autism is not understood by many (as shown by the imaginary friends comment above), and a LOT of people battle with issues related to it. It's a neutral quality being depicted as such, but in a character that is likable.
If you want to be a bleeding heart about it, wizards is spreading awareness. If you want to be a realist about it, they're improving their marketing in an attempt to reach a broader playerbase. Neither of these goals is the intent of the other "mental illnesses" suffered by other planeswalkers.
March 18, 2015 2:23 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #38
I'm gonna say this again, the other planeswalkers don't have mental illnesses or disorders. They are more likely to have personality disorders. BUT, considering the culture and society the planeswalkers live in and the events that occur around them, you can't even consider them as disorders. In their respective environment, any personality issue they might have will be considered to be normal or even a cause of natural occurrence with them gaining power among other things and because of this, you can't diagnose them to have a disorder.
March 18, 2015 6:12 p.m.
SimicPower says... #39
The question of other whether or not other planeswalkers have mental disorders is probably best directed to Doug.
March 18, 2015 7:09 p.m.
DeathChant17 says... #40
When I play Magic with my buddies, I like to picture myself as a wizard/planeswalker in a battle to the death with another(other) wizard(s)/planeswalker(s).
Like maybe we are all standing on top of adjacent mountaintops slinging spells at each other, Lightning Bolt art comes to mind.
So, yes if you are wondering, I picture this and feel totally bad-ass when I tell my eldrazi to obliterate your mountain, when I play control (and win) I feel like the older, on a higher intellectual level, more experienced wizard that just chuckles at my opponent's fultile attempts at me.
Maybe I have ADHD or am just really imaginative. But I play for fun, and I believe it's good to reach out to a more diverse market than the everyday nerd like me. Whether or not people connect or feel validated by cards or characters in the game makes no difference to me(personally if you couldn't tell I associate myself with planeswalkers), but I do believe it's a brilliant marketing stragety to bring more people into the game.
One of my very good friends whom I've known for years has a son that is autistic. When he was younger he always hung around by himself, never did much but watch yu-gi-oh and play pokemon on the gameboy.
I never really knew how to interact with him, but one day, to try and get to know him, I brought 2 decks to his house and taught him to play. At the end of the day I asked which deck he liked the best and let him keep the one he chose. Then his dad started playing, and now they have a better relationship and are always conspiring against me.
That was 7 years ago. I've always been glad I did that and for me, that has always kinda been what the game was about, just to bring people together for fun. No matter what minority group they belong in. So whether it's brilliance in marketing or whatever, the fact that it may help people feel less alienated is awesome to me.
March 20, 2015 2:47 p.m.
My 8 year old boy and 12 year old girl are both on the autism spectrum (and that is what it is actually called not a "long term defining physical disease, especially slight cases of" it's not a disease yo!) And being that he can not evan read and yet he can play magic better than my 12 year old is amazing (he can evan consistently beat me with the "Chandra vs Jace" dual decks Chandra deck) autistic people quite often have a "very narrow focus of interest" sometimes to the point where if it does not have to do with their topic of intrest they will not evan talk to you (luckily for me with my son it is ANY game not just 1 specific game but my 12 year old girl it's pets ANY pet that's why he plays better than her cause his narrow focus IS games hers is not) my son has no friends his age is picked on and left out ALL the time and now has come to the realization that he is "different" and does not know why, so having a planeswalker on "the spectrum" is awesome and being a truly broken one at that is evan better (planeswalkers are his favorite cards) because she is so awesome of a card (both versions) and on the spectrum it shows him that people with the same differences he has can and are in roles of power and respect in a format that he can relate to (a game). I feel that this type of thing should happen more often cause these people are out there and do exist they should be represented just like "Niro-typical" people granted there are more nuro-typical people out there but there are WAY more cards that depict them. Now I have forgotten where I was going with this so I'll step off my soapbox for now and end with saying that EVERYONE should be able to find someone/something to associate/relate with evan if it's a piece of card stock with ink on it and yes Rasta_Viking29 it is wrong for you to find this "comical" cause magic is obviously this guy (or gal) narrow focus topic and as sutch it is as real/relevant to him/her as anything else
March 22, 2015 4:09 a.m.
@ Kozelek:
sorry in advance for the format, still not sure how to write messages properly on this site.
Well put! I hope your son finds a way to deal with bullies. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how many people on this thread have been pretty empathetic. Granted, there are a couple outliers... but they're outliers, which is great, imho. To be honest, reading through the first Narset article, I had noticed that she definitely had a "unique" perspective on the world, but hadn't immediately categorized it as autistic. Then a friend mentioned how great it was that wizards had made Narset autistic, and i immediately realized why they'd written the article the way they had. I'm particularly impressed because they showed that aspect of her character in a way that wouldn't have alienated anyone, but would be very relatable for people like your son. At the same time, it was done very tastefully so, which isn't a given for this sort of thing.
mooffalosystema says... #2
tbh, not the first time planeswalkers have suffered from mental disorders.
Urza was a verified clinical psychopath with severe problems understanding basic empathy at times, Ajani is a known for his anger management issues as is Garruk. Chandra is defined by her complete lack of emotional control and Liliana very likely suffers from narcissistic personality disorder.
And the recent posterchild, Sarkhan is completely loonybin material, he was known as "the Mad" at one point after all. You don't just brush past like that gone unless you are called Jace and keep deleting bad memories you have. Which I'm sure will at some point case Jace to either go completely catatonic or develop Solipsism to deal with it.
Sorin is probably the most grounded and he's dealing with being a ancient vampire and really does not care all that much. He left Zendikar, and probably everything else, to be nommed by Eldrazi on a whim.
At the very least, everyone with the planeswalkers spark seem to develop intense delusions of grandeur over time.
March 17, 2015 1:17 p.m.