Is Anyone Annoyed at the Inclusion of Certain Planeswalkers in WotS?
Lore forum
Posted on April 1, 2019, 10 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Some players may find the idea of there being so many planeswalkers in War of the Spark to be exciting, but I am displeased about the inclusion of certain characters.
For example, I was really hoping that Ob Nixilis would be an independent threat to the Gatewatch, with no connection to Bolas, so I am very displeased that he is being reduced to a supporting role in this set. Sorin escaping from the stone in which Nahiri imprisoned him could have (and should have) been an entire story in its own right, preferably saved for a third Innistrad block (which is not likely to occur in the near future, but still is likely to occur at some point, due to that plane’s popularity). Also, Nahiri’s story arc really should have been continued in its own set, because she, again, has been reduced from main antagonist to a supporting role. I also think that Ashiok should be allowed to develop into an antagonist on their own, with no relation to the Bolas/Gatewatch storyline.
What does everyone else say about this? Are you displeased that so many characters who should have had their own independent stories are being forced together?
DemonDragonJ says... #3
pskinn01, I understand that Bolas is a major threat to everyone, but are you not still annoyed at being denied the possibility of further excellent stories?
April 1, 2019 10:28 p.m.
Yes, I would of preferred to have some of the stories stretched out over at least a set. But once they did away with blocks, I figured most stories would be rushed now. But I didn't want these events stretched out if they were not plot heavy stories. Karn/Ugin going to get sorin out of the stone just to fight Bolas, would not of made an interesting set.
April 1, 2019 10:51 p.m.
At this point, we do not know if the story will do these characters justice. That said, I suspect it will not--my faith in Magic's writers is perpetually low. Perhaps the move to a book, rather than the (unbelievably poorly written) online stories might be promising, but I'm still skeptical.
I am trying to reserve judgment, but I will be quite displeased if (and likely when) these characters' potential is wasted.
April 1, 2019 10:53 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #6
pskinn01: why would that not have made an interesting set?
April 1, 2019 11 p.m.
DemonDragonJ I agree with you here. I get that they need to have a bunch of walkers in the set and I actually like the design but I, like you, feel that some of their stories needed to be resolved instead of just showing up in this set. And as much as I'm looking forward to this story, it does all seem a bit rushed.
April 1, 2019 11:01 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #8
panda123 who says those stories can't be finished later?
April 1, 2019 11:05 p.m.
PlatinumOne: if the plot only had to do with one of two super powerful walkers breaking a Walker out of a stone without having to add other pieces would not of set up a good story imo. Now if he survives, him going back to get back at the other vampire clans would be fun, as it could also result in the moon breaking and setting the eldrazi menace free, along with any other things inside it.
April 1, 2019 11:14 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #10
Characters that I think need a lil background as to how and why they got here:
Mu Yanling and Jiang Yanggu: ... who the fuck are these guys? All we have on the WotC website (unless I’m wrong, which I am prone to be) is brief bios that raise WAY more questions than answers.
Sorin and Nahiri: we need a before, where Sorin gets out of the rock, and an after story where the two meet on Ravnica (told from both their points of view) and either grudgingly work together and then try to kill each other, or just try to kill each other. I need a rematch. We all know Nahiri only won because plot.
Teyo Verada: I know he’s the new guy, but his card is painfully mediocre and all we know is this is his first walk.
Davriel Cane: the only entry I am genuinely upset about. He is effortlessly my second favorite planeswalker, and may be my first, and his first card is THIS piece of shit here!? It does neither of the two things that Davriel is known for: neither spelljacking nor consorting in any way with demons. I love that he’s a shadowmage. I love it. But guys, come on. Really.
Angrath: I love this character too, he’s my #3. And we know basically nothing about him. That being said, I can’t really be mad bc we all know we’ll be seeing him in Kaldheim in the near future.
Kaya: how did Bolas get someone like her under his thumb? One can only postulate.
Ajani: where ya been all this time, old man? What walkers were you talking to?
Arlinn: love the character, card did not remotely do her justice, we’ve done this song and dance already in this post. But seriously, I love this character and all we know is that she used to be a cathar and has now embraced her place in the pack. Now what? What’s next?
The Wanderer: dunno who she is, but I love the design and I love the weapon. I know the whole “mysterious badass” motif has been done to death, but mtg hasn’t had one yet. Might as well start here. My secret hope is it’s Elspeth and that’s who Ajani was getting.
Would also be curious to see Jace’s relationship with the watch, these days.
April 1, 2019 11:15 p.m.
JANKYARD_DOG says... #11
Regarding Kaya, there is some art on a spoiled card that shows her facing off against eternals so it begs the questions; who's side is she on really?
April 1, 2019 11:21 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
Yes, I am annoyed by the inclusion of the gatewatch. They should have all died in a fire right around 30 seconds after they were created. They are lazy story design.
April 1, 2019 11:29 p.m.
ZendikariWol - from the Amazon.com description of War of the Spark’s upcoming novel, it appears Teyo Verada is going to be the main character from whose perspective the story is told. The description lists him as a mage on a world with diamond storms, where shield magic is particularly important. His spark is ignited after some kind of accident. So, we can be reasonably sure his story will be covered.
I’m hoping the Wanderer’s character is not fleshed out too much. A mysterious Planeswalker is something I can get behind.
April 1, 2019 11:53 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #14
Ob Nixilis is an independent threat in this set. “Trapped on Ravnica with no affection for either side, Ob Nixilis sought gratification in random acts torment.” - Ob Nixilis's Cruelty. He has no connection to Bolas or the Gatewatch in terms of being on sides. Like almost every other Planeswalker besides the Gatewatch and main ones that we have seen they might not even have any prior knowledge of Bolas. It’s speculative at this point but possibly clear Bolas set a trap to take sparks by any means nessesary. One could assume that every non Bolas planeswalker on Ravica is ultimately there to die, ally of Bolas or not. As we have seen on Ahmonket, Bolas in his plans did not hesitate to slaughter anyone, everyone is just another pawn in his quest for ultimate power.
From a design perspective the theme of this set is Planeswalkers just as Dominaria was about legendary creatures. I believe it was Rosewater himself that recently stated that for a mechanic or theme to trully be in a set it has to atleast reach the uncommon card slot. That way players are actually experiencing the “theme” of the set. This might be Magic’s one chance for a very long time to have an all out Planeswalker set. Don’t let the fact for balancing reasons and extending the Planeswalker theme to the uncommon slot and power level deminish any love for new or returning walkers.
April 2, 2019 12:02 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #15
With you on both those points, cdkime, though I may have forgotten about the first one...
And @mymanpotsandpans, while I concur with the sentiment, I think that new walkers need more fleshing out than established walkers. That's why I think a higher quantity (yes, even just one more) of loyalty abilities would serve to develop the character from a mechanical and lore perspective.
April 2, 2019 12:35 a.m.
I only hope that this event is used as a culling - there are way, way too many walkers out there. 36 is not even half of all planeswalkers that have cards. I am personally rooting for Ashiok to be a badass.
Also, the description of the Wanderer in the wiki is super cool: _ "The Wanderer has long white hair, and hides her face behind a conical hat. She is adept at swordplay, and is able to magically absorb kinetic energy and redirect that force through her massive sword.[1]
Able to down the largest foes with a single stroke, The Wanderer is also cursed to make an effort not to planeswalk. Unlike other planeswalkers who are tired by the process of planeswalking, The Wanderer can planeswalk and then planeswalk again almost immediately - but only because if she doesn't focus she will be pulled at random from plane to plane.[1]
How she came to be this way and if her spark is different from all others may be at the heart of her endless journey through the multiverse and her desire to hide her identity. Whether she seeks a person, place or thing remains to be seen, but a peaceful resolution to her never ending quest seems unlikely. She usually disappears quickly after a fight and stays hidden from investigators. " _
April 2, 2019 7:21 a.m.
Maybe they'll use the upcoming core set to fill in some of these gaps in the story
April 2, 2019 8:09 a.m.
RicketyEng says... #18
All of the side story walkers are present because Bolas gets in the way of their stories running their course. I missed the first half of the panel on Sunday where they might have explained it, but Ignite the Beacon suggests that Bolas uses a special magical beacon to forcibly pull ALL planeswalkers to Ravnica. This includes many who don't have cards in the set, but not Garruk. Rosewater put that along the lines of it being a bit counter productive to bring a planeswalker hunter to the party and they also have other plans for him.
This beacon would be the explanation for how and why all the side questers are present. I had figured that the assembly would happen via Tha Gatewatch gathering a bunch of folks and Bolas manipulating a bunch more with various false lures. I guess the beacon is a bit easier and more surefire.
April 2, 2019 10:25 a.m. Edited.
ZendikariWol says... #19
1) how do you edit a post?
2) I have to doubt that every planeswalker except Garruk is on Ravnica, unless there are far fewer in the 'verse than I initially thought.
April 2, 2019 10:40 a.m.
PlatinumOne I'm not saying that isnt a possibility but only that it seems rushed to have walkers with known ongoing stories to just show up in this set. Sorin being the best example of this. Last we saw him on his home plane there was almost an entirely new story waiting to be written and while it's not impossible to go back to that after this war wraps itself up, it just seems rushed to have him here without any explanation. But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself and it's all touched on in the novel.. or at least I hope it is.
April 2, 2019 11:52 a.m. Edited.
I'm not necessarily upset about the inclusion of specific walkers, but rather disappointed in WotC's story telling. They seemed to have followed the "super hero league" trope to some degree. This is all well and good, but many of the "super hero league"s featuring a bunch of heroes against a major villain are only gripping because each hero has had significant personal development beforehand, and so we care about each and every member of the team.
The Jacestice League lacks that severely. I actually care more about some of the "villains" than I do about most of the heroes. There's also the matter of explaining everyone's allegiances. For example, on Ixalan, Angrath was an angry pirate captain trapped by the immortal sun who wanted nothing more than to get home to Kaldheim and see his daughter. What is he doing on Ravnica? Why does he care about leading an army of zombie minotaurs? Sure he's an angry and pretty selfish dude, but he's not quite the "wanton destruction for fun and no other reason" type. More "wanton destruction when I don't get what I want and what I want is to go home to my kid".
Kaya and Vraska and Ral I can see being manipulated. Ob Nixilis just being upset and wanting to kill everyone I can totally see. But what about all these random walkers pulled to Ravnica? What decides which side of the battle they fall on? An arbitrary off-screen charisma roll made DnD style against the walker by both Jace and Bolas? High roll gets the walker?
Why are Sorin and Nahiri and Nissa even here? They each care more for the continued health of their own planes than for the greater health of the multiverse (or at least they used to), and each of their home worlds aren't exactly thriving right now. Zendikar and Innistrad both have eldrazi infestation issues which still need cleaning up, damage that needs repairing, in Innistrads case, protective measures that need re-implementing (Sorin created Avacyn because without her humanity would be hunted to extinction by the other horrors that stalk the plane). Nissa also expressed interested in fixing Amonkhet's absolutely ruined leylines to repair the plane's mana. Beyond that, Nahiri and Sorin both view each other as direct threats to their home planes. Bolas is kind of... less of a priority? Or if he isn't... why?
There's a lot of explaining that needs to be done and... I'm really not sure that WotC's writers can gracefully juggle 36 walkers. They have historically struggled to juggle 5.
April 2, 2019 8:05 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #22
Personally I see nothing wrong with the fact other Planeswalkers are showing up for the first time now. Besides the backstory of each of these new characters their main contribution starts now. Wizards didn’t take us to Kaladesh for saheeli, Ixilan for Angrath, or Amonkhet for Samut. We went to those places for The Bridge, Immortal Sun, and the Eternals. All places key to Bolas and how the writers wanted to show he progressed the story. Non of these Planeswalkers introduced now had any relation to those events till now. To take a whole set or two off to have side adventures for the Wanderer or any other new Planeswalkers to the story would be misserable. They would have to do that for each one of these new walkers, there are only so many “Imortal Suns” Bolas needs. How long has it been since Karn got to LIBERATE the face’s of Phyrexians?
None of these Planeswalkers chose to be here. Bolas did some sort of interplaner trap to bring all these Planeswalkers to Ravnica. None of these characters have any purpose other than to die for Bolas period. I could imagine pretty fast that most of these characters will figure this out. There's a bunch of angry blue spooky boys slaughtering everyone so a dragon can become the ultimate Planeswalker. Allegiances aren’t that all complicated.
April 2, 2019 11:38 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #23
Yep, I agree with mymanpotsandpans. (Also, cool name!)
April 3, 2019 6:33 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #24
I am bothered that Sorin and Nahiri cannot set aside their differences in view of Bolas being a much greater threat to the multiverse. Their conflict should have had its own set; there is no reason at all for them to be involved in this struggle.
April 3, 2019 8:37 p.m.
DemonDragonJ They should totally just kiss and make up already.
April 3, 2019 8:43 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #26
DuTogira, I am glad that I am not the only player who thinks that there is a great amount of sexual tension between them.
April 3, 2019 9 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #27
Link to a great story update from Wizards about Sorin and Nahiri
This will help clear up why the two decide killing each other is more important than anything else. Also it’s only been shown the two arive to Ravnica and start killing each other. Nothing has been said about how this will end between the two or end up relating to Bolas. They were ripped from wherever they were and dropped infront of the greatest threat to their native plane. Can we let them stab each other for five minutes before we jump to conclusions about the story?
April 3, 2019 11:18 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans - I think the bigger issue is not "why are they ignoring Bolas and fighting one another" but rather "why is the Sorin/Nahiri conflict, one that has spanned several sets, a footnote to Bolas' story?" This set feels a whole lot like everyone and the kitchen sink is being tossed on Ravnica, something I am sure Wizards will have some half-baked explanation for.
With all that is going on with this set--and the general incompetence of Wizards' writers--I think there's a better-than-even chance this conflict will feel shoehorned into the plot; and an almost certain chance that there will be too many other things going on to address the Sorin/Nahiri conflict to the extent it deserves. Frankly, an entire set could have focused around those two (possibly with Ugin thrown in for good measure).
April 3, 2019 11:33 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #29
First off, it’s always been Bolas’s story everyone’s just living in it. Then from a story perspective there is absolutely nothing wrong with two characters having an external conflict to the main one. To assemble all these characters and have them NOT touch on all their individual interactions would be a waste. Everyone keeps saying these two need their own set. Yes and they got that it’s called Shadows Over Inistrad and Eldritch Moon. Then absolutely nothing, nothing at all says this is the end of their story. Perhaps this could be the end of one of the two or maybe both. But to bring these two characters together and not even touch upon the fact you have two characters that want to murder each other would be a miss. Ob Nixilis is a dick and he kills things, Angrath hates being imprisoned, Nahiri and Sorin have a grudge to settle. Everyone is doing exactly what’s in line with their character. Should Bolas’s interplanner trap exempted Sorin and Nahiri because they had another story to be told?
Also for the argument of this fued should end with its own set(s) (which has never been revealed to actually end here yet) is also a miss. Personally I don’t see it as shoehorning anything in. If anything it pays respect to the notion everyone is a pawn to Bolas. No one is getting what they want besides Bolas in the end. Good, bad, angry pirate captain? Doesn’t matter, you are all sac fodder to a dragon.
I don’t want this to read as being dismissive of what others want from the story. However very little information has been actually released yet besides just the premise of the set and who is involved. I have faith that Wizards will plan to tell some smaller stories after War of the Spark. Maybe this will be one of them.
April 4, 2019 12:54 a.m.
mymanpotsandpans - what you say is true, only if we assume Sorin and Nahiri have to be on Ravnica. This means the set has to deal with the whole “how did Sorin escape from a rock, and how did he get his sword back from Olivia” issues. There is how Nahiri feels about Innistrad not being obliterated. She could probably be on the set without Sorin though, since her baggage does not include confinement to a plane.
It matters not whether their story ends in this set - it is the very fact their story continues in this set that is cause for concern. There is just too much to get them from point A (where we left the two off) to point B (Ravnica) to expect that journey will receive the treatment it deserves.
I think we also have very different expectations of Wizards’ story teams. The overal stories as a concept tend to be fine; but the actual writing and character development has always been mediocre-at-best. They have enough difficulty when they’re just following two or three characters that it’s a tad unreasonable to think they’ll cover thirty something adequately.
Perhaps I’ll be shown wrong, and Wizards will surprise me with deft storytelling. But they have not earned the benefit of the doubt.
April 4, 2019 3:23 a.m.
Personally, I am not really interested how Sorin got out of the rock - perhaps someone walked by him and happened to have a sledgehammer on hand... Or what Nahiri did after setting the vampire in stone. But perhaps WOTC is saving those for something they have rarely done - a set made as a flashback. Gee, I wonder which M19 set contained a bunch of stories from the past...
I would not be surprised to have all those stories explored during the next couple of core sets.
April 4, 2019 3:29 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #32
Gee, I wonder which Modern Horizons set contained a bunch of stories from the past.
Boza may be onto something here.
April 4, 2019 8:33 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #33
So hey, is anyone else kinda confused as to the lack of blue walkers thus far? Anyone?
They have not spoiled Tamiyo. They have not spoiled blondie with the bird who is absolutely either blue or blue/white. Nor Narset, nor Baan, nor Ashiok, nor Saheeli? Not only that, but Davriel is mono-black!? I will not stand for this, he is abso-fucking-lutely blue/black and why on earth does his card have NOTHING to do with spelljacking?? I get it, that's Ashiok's whole schtick but to hell with Ashiok, Dav is a much more engaging and fun character! And this is his first card!!
And not only, not only does Davriel not spelljack, no no, he also doesn't interact at ALL with demons! I love that he's a shadowmage. I do. But come on, Wizards. Make him a rare, at least, so we can see more of his abilities.
April 4, 2019 12:20 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #34
Spoilers are being done in way that loosely tells the story of what’s going on. Such as yesterday had a few cards all relating to what Sorin and Nahiri are doing. Narset will probably get spoiled the same day as Sarkhan and Ugin is my guess. Some Planeswalkers also got leaked and not spoiled a couple days before like Sorin did. Teferi is blue. I expect Bann and Ral to get spoiled along with a card of someone jamming a sword through their chest.
For Davriel he could still be blue. It might of not been right to have a U/B rack/discard walker. That’s not exactly a blue ability. Also potential overlap with Ashiok.
April 4, 2019 2:35 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #35
I actually addressed the Ashiok thing, mymanpotsandpans, regarding Dav. I’m just saying, this is the first Davriel card we’ve gotten, I get maybe this one can’t be blue, especially in such a walker-saturated set. I’m just annoyed that SURPRISE he’s a shadowmage out of the blue (and, yes, out of the blue).
April 4, 2019 3:58 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans Regarding your "Everyone keeps saying these two need their own set. Yes and they got that it’s called Shadows Over Inistrad and Eldritch Moon," statement about Sorin and Nahiri: I disagree. SoI/EM was told from the perspective of a bumbling team of superheroes (planeswalkers) who were chasing an Eldrazi titan and attempting to vanquish it so it could no longer harm the Multiverse. In those sets, Nahiri was largely handled as a plot device just to provide an explanation for why Emrakul was on Innistrad, and Sorin was a plot device who destroyed Avacyn so that she wouldn't destroy the entire gatewatch single-handedly. Yes Sorin and Nahiri were there on Sorin's home plane and did fight, but I mean come on, Sorin wasn't even involved in the fight against Emrakul at all. He literally just destroyed Avacyn and then went off in search of Nahiri instead of trying to save his home plane. This could be excused as "Sorin thought the only way to save the plane was to force Nahiri to lure Emrakul off it", but that isn't confirmed/denied anywhere so I'm not buying that WotC thought of that explanation.
The Sorin/Nahiri fight sort of took place, but it was largely offscreen action. There was no story about Nahiri slaughtering Markov Manor, nor a story outlining the epic battle between the two. Sorin just kinda discovered the manor, vowed revenge, and then got stuck in a rock.
It would be great to have justice done to their battle, just as justice WILL eventually be done for the conflict between liliana and garruk (Garruk, by the way, was omitted from the list of walkers pulled to Ravnica because it wouldn't be good for the story). Sorin could have been left in that rock and Nahiri pulled to ravnica instead, but now we get to resolve their fight, not even on the side of a regular story, but as we resolve what is supposed to be one of the greatest clashes in the history of the multiverse.
To me... WotC botched the Nahiri/Sorin story.
April 4, 2019 7:32 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #37
While I agree the Magic writing team is kinda rough, 1) they do the best they can, Jesus guys cut them some slack, and 2) the idea that Avacyn could singlehandedly defeat a group of planeswalkers who destroyed an Eldrazi Titan is laughable.
April 4, 2019 8:14 p.m.
ZendikariWol nissa wasn't there to bind her and chandra wasn't there to burn the indestructible thing to death while gids tanked it. It was just jace and lili and tamiyo. On top of that, the story can't remeber which to site it literally panned out with jace and tamiyo running away from an infuriated avacyn before she could eviscerate them.
April 4, 2019 8:35 p.m.
ZendikariWol, DuTogira - the Gatewatch did not kill the Titans alone--they were channeling the entire power of Zendikar's leylines. I do not think that particular triumph is an accurate measure of their abilities.
April 4, 2019 8:45 p.m.
This Story. Avacyn was basically about to kill Jace AND Tamiyo.
As for cutting WotC some slack: I still read every story across the lore. That's the slack being cut. Being unimpressed with the flaws while still appreciating the positives is exactly what "cutting slack" is.
April 4, 2019 8:50 p.m. Edited.
Back to the main post... the more I think about it, the more I get annoyed that Nissa was included in the list of walkers present. With the 2/3 eldrazi titans dead, the multiverse is out of a recycling crew.
Nissa is a green walker specializing in leylines manipulation: essentially, fixing and maintaining a plane's mana. I kind of want her to usurp the eldrazi's old role and become the multiverse's janitor, cleaning up, fixing, and repairing the broken leylines of dying planes.
Instead she'll probably end up dead too... but there is HOPE! Maybe she'll just stick around to fix Ravnica's mana after all these walkers mess it up, and then she can go fix zendikar, then amonkhet, aaaaaand she just exists in the shadows as the low key hero who kips fixing planes so we can return to return to return to ravnica in another 5 years.
April 4, 2019 9:18 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #42
DuTogira, you claimed that Sorin and Nahriri's duel on Innistrad happened off screen but it was very much on screen. You must have missed this story.
There was something Mark Rosewater said on Blogatog (I can't remember what exactly) that suggests to me that both Sorin and Nahriri will survive to conclude their story at a later time.
pskinn01 says... #2
Well, the threat bolas is to all planes, should he succeed, means that all are being called to arms in order to prevent him dominating all planes. But I think bolas was planning this to happen so he could harvest all the sparks.
I think ugin or karn freed Sorin.
April 1, 2019 10:21 p.m. Edited.