Karn vs bolas?
Lore forum
Posted on Jan. 30, 2017, 3:50 p.m. by Dabean27
If they were to fight who would win? Besides ugin I'd say karn is one of the few to be able to stand up to big daddy bolas
I think bolas would win in the end but karn would put up a big fight
January 30, 2017 3:56 p.m.
Like...I think it would without a doubt be Bolas. Bolas has plans within plans within plans. Bolas has years on Karn, including longer as a god and normal walker.
January 30, 2017 4 p.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #5
Tibalt will just show up on Amonkhet and kill Bolas XD
January 30, 2017 6:03 p.m.
I haven't done much reading, but I have read the majority of things to do with Bolas. And I don't understand why you all think he's so killable. He is the master planner. I dare say he could out-think both Kruphix and Phenax if given the chance. Thus, he'd never be without a plan for a surprise attack or some other threat. Not to mention he is still one of the top dogs after the mending, if not the top already. He has powerful underlings who have powerful underlings who can thin a herd of planeswalkers before they even reach Bolas if he so craftily planned to do so.
January 30, 2017 6:13 p.m.
Eiti3 "I don't understand why you all think he is so killable."
????????????????
Literally everyone here besides the Tibalt-nerd said Bolas would roll Karn? What
January 30, 2017 6:23 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #9
With Urza-powers, it's Karn. Without Urza-powers, it's Bolas easily.
January 30, 2017 8:54 p.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #10
Yeah, right now it doesn't seem like anyone can take Bolas down :P Maybe Liliana is our last hope for job that with the Chain Veil
January 30, 2017 9:14 p.m.
Let's face it, Bolas would just end up tricking Karn into doing whatever he wanted. The only way anybody will end up in a fight against Bolas is if he planned it that way.
I hear a lot of love for the Gatewatch, but I have to question, was it not Bolas' plan that created the Gatewatch?
What makes us think that if/when Karn and Bolas meet, it won't all be due to one of Bolas' plans?
Lastly, a reference to the movie 300. Bolas would kill any of his followers for victory. Karn would die for any of his. Bolas doesn't need to kill Karn, just put him in an unfavorable position.
January 30, 2017 11:56 p.m. Edited.
Dredge4life says... #13
I am down with this Bolas made the Gatewatch theory.
January 31, 2017 2:53 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #14
And then in the end they destroy something that is supposed to be "Bolas Powercore" but it was actually the thing that limits his power and he becomes a god once again or something like that.
January 31, 2017 8:04 a.m.
I don't think people are giving Karn the credit he deserves. Yes bolas is very powerful and probably does have the upperhand simply because he's more willing to fight. Karn seems to me to be more pacifist. That's not to say he won't fight he just doesn't feel the need to and doesn't willingly look for said fight. That said.
Karn was apart of the legacy weapon that defeated yawgmoth and WITHOUT his planeswalker spark ignited was revered amongst the phyrexians as the next father of machines. The fact he was so powerful that the likes of the five praetors would follow him is not a laughing matter. Provoked to far and I see Karn trouncing bolas.
January 31, 2017 9:07 a.m.
Karn was a part of the Legacy, which killed Yawgmoth. Without those pieces, several if not all of which are lost/destroyed, he would not be able to do so again.
He was worshiped on New Phyrexia despite having no spark because he created the plane they were resurrected on when he did have a spark.
He's a very powerful planeswalker, there is no doubt. With as little information we have, it's not out of the question that in terms of raw power, he could be in the same league as Bolas.
However, Bolas has the advantage of being old, cruel, and careful. He never enters a situation he is not confident he can at least walk away from, if not win. He would happily sacrifice his associates (read: slaves) just to do so, and in fact would have those options s part of his many contingencies and models. Although he is prideful, he knows when to quit while he's ahead, so if a fight even started to go south, he'd very well planeswalk away.
Karn is held back by his morality and pacifism. As was already said, he'd die to protect his friends, and Bolas would pick up on that weakness quickly and incorporate that into either his combat or exit strategies. Although he is smart, he's only robot smart, able to calculate logical situations, but not quite emotional ones. Fighting Bolas is a test not just of intelligence but of heart and emotional strength, thanks to his heavy alignment with black mana.
Without some powerful McGuffin, in open combat, Karn may put up a good, long fight - Bolas may even compliment him on reminding him of his first planeswalker duel against the demonic leviathan - but in the end, there is no contest. Bolas would win.
January 31, 2017 10:25 a.m.
pizzagod13 says... #17
You guys are forgoteing one thing about Bolas. He is arrogant Ajani used that to his advantage and beat Bolas completely tuning his master plan for Alara. I'm sure Karn could win
January 31, 2017 1:36 p.m.
Ajani didn't even really fight Nicol Bolas, because he knew he would lose. He summoned an essence of Bolas' own soul to fight him, and they were so evenly matched that both vanished in the end. Bolas only survived because he absorbed a good amount of Maelstrom energy immediately before the battle. If anything, that suggests that Bolas is the only one who can defeat Bolas.
It wasn't a matter of arrogance either, he was in the middle of trying to absorb the Maelstrom, was interrupted, and fought to quell this interruption so he could continue to try to undo the effects of the Mending on his power. And again, he survived, which adds further credence to the fact that Bolas only enters situations he is confident he'll walk away from. Bolas is arrogant yes, but he's aware of his arrogance (see the flavor text on Conflux) and takes that into account in his strategies and calculations, or suppresses it when necessary.
January 31, 2017 2:51 p.m.
pizzagod13 says... #20
That isn't true in the story Bolas stated that he new of Ajani before he was even born. Bolas choose to not sniff him out thinking he would not be a threat
February 1, 2017 7:34 a.m.
pizzagod13 says... #21
Also I wasn't saying Ajani could beat Bolas otherwise, I was just trying to illustrate how he has a quirk (arrogance) that is exploitable.
February 1, 2017 7:37 a.m.
It wasn't exploited, and Ajani wasn't a threat. That's why Ajani summoned a Bolas Doppelganger. He was able to stop Bolas' consumption of the Maelstrom from reinstating his godlike powers, but he by no means threatened Bolas, only his plan, which he had contingencies in place for because he's Nicol-flipping-Bolas.
You cannot exploit Bolas' flaws because he is fully aware of them, and again, always plans for every possible and impossible outcome so that if he doesn't win, he also doesn't lose.
February 1, 2017 5:09 p.m.
Good points have been made.
Like I said earlier, I believe it was Bolas' plan that formed the Gatewatch. It was Bolas that planned the release of the Eldrazi. He would be wise to assume that Planeswalkers would show up, and team up to stop the threat. Bolas planned for Sarkhan, Jace, and Chandra to release the Eldrazi, which they did.
Tezzeret is either a servant or slave to Bolas. He has been HUGE on Kaladesh, which is Chandra's home Plane. This appears to be exactly what Bolas wanted.
So far the Gatewatch forming, and everything they have done since appears to be an elaborate Bolas plan. Next Block we go to HIS Plane. Is this by chance? It looks to be exactly what Bolas wants.
Now why is this important you might ask. Could Karn defeat the gathered Gatewatch? I'm not so sure. He did defeat Yawgmoth sure, but Yawgmoth wasn't even a Planeswalker. Yawgmoth was a "god" but we still aren't sure what exactly that entails. Bolas is also called a god on his Plane of Amonkhet.
Bolas is planning on the Gatewatch coming to his Plane. He has planned EVERYTHING. We can only expect a fight, and it seems to be to his plan. He seems confident about this, which means he has to be unbelievably powerful. I am not convinced that Karn could defeat the Gatewatch.
Thus, Bolas > Gatewatch, Karn < Gatewatch, = Bolas > Karn.
February 1, 2017 5:33 p.m.
It would have to be something that could not be forseen or predicted. Removing his Spark, severing all mana leylines from the plane you're fighting on, etc. And even then you'd have to beat his raw combat skills, which are naturally superb given he is now the last surviving winner of the Dominarian Dragon War.
I suppose there is one possible way Karn could beat Nicol Bolas, but there's presently no way of accomplishing it. Karn is a silver golem because Urza discovered that silver could safely travel across time. If Karn could somehow develop or get a hold of a wearable time-travel device, he could potentially just sort jump in and out of time at irregular intervals, slapping Bolas left and right indefinitely, or even multiple Karns travelling to the same moment in time to punch him all at once. It's pretty much unheard of, so Bolas may not have a way to get around it. There'd likely need to be more to it though.
But even then, it's possible Nicol Bolas just isnt able to be permanently defeated, only temporarily stopped or derailed until he regains momentum. And personally, I'd not have it any other way. The day Wizards decides to kill off Bolas will a sad day for Vorthos' everywhere.
February 1, 2017 8:02 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #26
The mention of screwing around with leylines rises an intriguing idea. We know of two planeswalkers with the ability to manipulate leylines. Could Nissa and/or Nahiri break Bolas's tie to a plane? I think I remember reading something about how a plane needs to be able to support his existence and so he isn't able to properly enter some planes. Could that be a key weakness? Maybe the only way to defeat him is to lock him away like an eldrazi.
February 3, 2017 1:53 p.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #27
That would be BOSS!!! Nahiri, the Vampire Slayer is my new ship for her though
February 3, 2017 2:18 p.m.
I don't think the gatewatch has a capabilities as it stands to defeat Nicol Bolas. The first time around I think he's gonna trash them and send them running with someone(I'm gonna guess Jace or Liliana) getting left behind and forced into his service
February 3, 2017 2:26 p.m.
Liliana may turn her back on the Gatewatch. She has priorities and I'm pretty sure the Gatewatch isn't on top. She has also interacted a lot with Chandra. Chandra may leave with her.
I think it's a simple Divide and Conquer strategy.
The only three confirmed Planeswalkers that were in Bolals' plan were Sarkhan, Jace, and Chandra. Sarkhan isn't relevant right now. Neither Jace nor Chandra should be a key piece in defeating Bolas if the Gatewatch were to win as he planned their specific presence.
Of course, that's what we have confirmed right now, the others could very well be part of his plan. He isn't scared.
Bolas would wreck Karn.
February 4, 2017 6:51 a.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #31
Liliana did make an oath...
Although good point on Jace. Like Tamiyo said on Innistrad, a Planeswalking telepath with Jace's power is a very dangerous threat, and under Bolas' control, Jace could have unlimited destructive capabilities.
February 4, 2017 7:58 a.m.
Yes Liliana made an oath, but not only does it not sound particularly convincing ("I'll keep watch. Happy now?") but in the story, her thought process to being asked to take the oath is very clear:
Excerpt from "The Promised End" Show
She sees the Gatewatch as an opportunity for her own gains, namely using the Chain Veil more effectively. She may not want to drop them per se, but she may try to abuse them too much, and cause them to drop her.
February 4, 2017 12:39 p.m.
Not an answer to the OPs question, but Bolas HAS been defeated before. By a non-planswalking human. Before the mending, basically when he was at the pinnacle of his power.
He absolutely has arrogance issues, and, despite his incredible ability to plan for most circumstances, he isn't all-knowing. He can be fooled, he can be tricked, there are things that he doesn't account for. It's just borderline impossible.
February 8, 2017 12:25 p.m.
That isn't necessarily fair Nemesis. Nicol Bolas was only defeated because he was separated from his body at the time. His body was in one location while his mind was in another.
You could say that it was arrogance and it might be a fair standpoint, but do you think Bolas would allows such a thing to happen again? Tetsuo Umezawa took a cheap shot, and only eliminated Bolas' body. Bolas' mind was still intact and he is/was powerful enough to recreate his body and regain his lost power.
This is another thing to factor, how does one truly defeat Bolas? At this point is it even possible for him to die?
February 8, 2017 3:45 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #35
Is that fight with Tetsuo what I was thinking of when I referred to Bolas needing proper anchoring in order to manifest on a plane? What was it that separated his mind and body? If it had to do with leylines/mana then I think that would be evidence supporting my hypothesis.
February 8, 2017 3:57 p.m.
Yes, he was too powerful for the Plane and had to anchor himself. We don't know why though. What I mean by that is we don't know if he is too powerful to manifest on any Plane, or if that specific Plane was just weak.
To answer the second part of your question, Bolas chose to separate his mind from his body.
From what we know, Bolas has defeated Teferi (I believe killing him), he killed Ugin, he EASILY defeated the combined effort of Tezzeret and Jace. Jace is supposed to be some amazingly powerful Mind Mage, yet Bolas was easily able to overpower Tezzeret and Jace, MENTALLY.
I don't remember exactly, did Bolas kill Venser or did it work out some other way? I know Venser is dead, and Bolas was involved, yet I don't remember if Bolas killed Venser.
From my standpoint, if we look at who Bolas has already defeated and those that have failed to defeat him, he easily has the upper hand.
Gatewatch:
Gideon Jura No interaction with Bolas that I am aware of, threat level: insignificant
Nissa Revane No interaction with Bolas that I am aware of, threat level: could be dangerous due to her connection to Leylines
Jace Beleren Easily defeated by Bolas with help from Tezzeret, manipulated into releasing the Eldrazi by Bolas, threat level: insignificant
Chandra Nalaar Manipulated into releasing the Eldrazi by Bolas, threat level: probably insignificant as Bolas planned her presence
Liliana Vess Much interaction with Bolas in the past, they have always worked together, threat level: high for the Gatewatch as given an ultimatum, Liliana may side with Bolas due to his knowledge of her demon masters and his ability to regain much of the lost power from the Mending
Ajani Goldmane Has fought Bolas in the past, knew he was too weak to defeat him so it tried some trickery and created a Bolas clone, threat level: could be dangerous but unlikely Bolas would allow Ajani to do the same thing twice lowering his threat level
Bolas doesn't really have competition in the Gatewatch. The fact that Bolas planned on Sarkhan, Jace, and Chandra being on Zendikar to release the Eldrazi, he doesn't fear them. As he made this entire plan, it is almost certain he knows of Nissa and planned on her participation as well. I also suspect that Chandra may follow Liliana if Liliana were to leave the Gatewatch.
February 8, 2017 4:33 p.m. Edited.
the.beanpole says... #37
@iAzire: from the Scars of Morrison novel, Venser teleported his heart into Karn, sacrificing himself in the process, but allowing Karn to regain his spark and escape the Phyrexian corruption that was beginning to control him.
Good call on the Tetsuo shoutout, @Nemesis! I had forgotten all about him! Though, if memory serves, the "meteor" that defeated Bolas on that occasion only did so because it physically altered the land/mana leylines that Bolas required (swamp, island, and mountain) to manifest on the plane. Also, he was honestly just a distraction while waiting for the destruction to happen and had no hand in actually dealing the blow.
I'd like to see what an interaction between Ashiok and Bolas would look like. Probably similar to what happen between Ajani and Bolas, but darker.
February 9, 2017 1:34 p.m.
To best answer the your question who'd win Karn Vs Nic, I'd first ask who'd win Karn Vs Ugin? In that I would say Ugin and Nic not only beat Ugin but, left him for dead and still had the strength to dig in Ugin's mind.
The only true threat to Bolas would be if the Primeval Dragons were reborn as they were true omnipotent beings (canon). Well on that note maybe the "gods" of threos might win. That said, Bolas has been the main protagonist from the get go and don't see him going any where soon.
February 18, 2017 3:19 a.m.
I don't think the Theros Gods would beat Bolas. Not easily anyway, as Kruphix, having looked into the minds of Kiora, Elspeth, and Ajani, determined that Bolas, along with the Eldrazi and New Phyrexia, were all major threats to the Gods and indeed, to Theros itself. If Kruphix, one of the only/the only God aware of the multiverse and planeswalkers isn't confident in their ability to fend off Bolas, it's likely they wouldn't be able to.
Also, he's an antagonist. And he wasn't the main one from the get-go, that was Yawgmoth/Phyrexia. He was just sorta there, doing evil things occasionally.
February 18, 2017 9:57 a.m.
Elder Dragon Wars was one of the first event in Dominaria. In which Nic and 4 others were/maybe survived (or were still "dragons"). Later the Primeval Dragons would come to rule Dominaria to have their power stolen by Numena who then, usurp by a man named Yawgmoth. All I'm getting at was Nic was first how ever as fan fiction I would say Nic taught/trained Yawgmoth because, if the Numena could steal the power of omnipotent beings, well why not get some one else, to kill them.
The theros "Gods" were just a thought but, yes I would think Bolas would still "win" more like get them to do some infighting and take them self's out. With that in mind the Theros "Gods" have not been shown to be omnipotent or omnipresent and/or omniscient.
protagonist! TEAM Nicol Bolas (it was 3am leave me alone)
February 18, 2017 1:06 p.m.
You have much reading to to before you can debate a Vorthos.
Bolas, his three siblings, and their cousin were indeed the winners of the Elder Dragon War, the first recorded event of Dominaria. They were also the only surviving dragons; all other survivors of the war were stripped of their dragonhood, and became various sorts of lesser dragons, eventually producing dragon-like races like the Viashino.
He was the first antagonist, sort of. He didn't really do much besides become the God-Emperor of an empire, and that wasn't really relevant to much of the story at all, ever. He popped up here and there, never being particularly helpful but not really evil. He was not the primary antagonist until somewhat recently, when he began to puppeteer multiverse-spanning plots such as the Infinite Consortium, trying to absorb the Maelstrom, releasing the Eldrazi, etc.
Your fanfic of Nicol Bolas training Yawgmoth is just that; fan fiction. We know all of Yawgmoth's history, he never encountered Bolas let alone learned anything from him.
Also, you don't need to put quotations around the Theros Gods. They are Gods. They have the God creature-type and, more importantly, fit the prerequisites of polytheistic Gods, such as the Greek/Roman Pantheon upon which they were based. They don't need to be omnipotent, that is a trait of monotheistic Gods.
February 18, 2017 11:25 p.m.
So wait your are saying "He was the first antagonist, sort of." now?
Drop mic and walk away 8p.
Your right I do have a lot of reading to get caught up on but, I got old and just can't find the time any more, sad days.
February 19, 2017 12:09 a.m.
I never said he wasn't the first antagonist. I initially only said he wasn't the first primary antagonist, which was your claim.
February 19, 2017 9:41 a.m.
Lets agree to do disagree do to this is off topic. The best answer to this question is your response #16
February 19, 2017 3:05 p.m.
Well... I've heard a lot of theories here today, and I have come to a conclusion. Unless Karn can get some kind of Time-Travel Device, Bolas is going to turn him into Karn, the Silver Scrap-Heap/Puddle. He could just melt him. Karn is a boss, but he is not that much of a Boss.
Excelsior, VickolasMarch 9, 2017 7:32 a.m.
captainawesome3 says... #46
Keep in mind, I didn't do any research on this, so this is a hastily wrote opinion, but I think either way, a possible fight will be huge. Bolas is a bit older than karn. karn's biggest weakness has always been his allies. he is willing to die for his friends. but, most of the people karn loved dead, karn has less to fight for. of all the planeswalkers, ugin, sorin and karn are the only ones that could 1v1 bolas and win. my two theories:
storyline one: gatewatch uncovers part of bolas' plan, realize theyre screwed and karn somehow realizes theyre in trouble and comes to help them. karn dosent want to fight bolas, knowing that bolas has had time to prepare and karn is likely to lose, but he sacrifices himself for his friends(again).storyline 2: bolas and karn are on the same plane, with the gatewatch and whichever new walkers on amonkhet. karn joins the gatewatch, gets a oath card, and fights bolas with the gatewatch. the gatewatch loses badly, because bolas has plans and is smarter than the gatewatch. gatewatch calls ugin, other allies while bolas prepares an escape plan. gatewatch search for bolas, find him in some elder-dragon lair and they fight. the amount of energy causes the plane to wither and die, and eventually blow up. all the walkers get out safe and nothing happens.
idk if these are viable, but i sure would like some big showdown!
March 25, 2017 4:51 p.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #47
I definitely feel like Ugin is plotting some revenge for Bolas. To think that Ugin would have beaten Bolas once upon a time if it were not for Yasova Dragonclaw... I would like to see Ugin interact more with other planeswalkers to help him fight Bolas, perhaps Nahiri now, because they both had a similar situation (i.e. Fight someone, get imprisoned for a long period of time as a result of that battle, and get out to find that a lot has changed like the escape of the Eldrazi). But really, who would be able to team up to defeat and kill Bolas? I feel that the Eldrazi would have had the advantage over the Phyrexians facing Bolas just because all of their power was kept in three beings, whereas the Phyrexians have more a powerful army, but that power is spread across them, which could be more vulnerable to Bolas' sheer might. It's even scarier to think that there could be other beings in the Multiverse, as of now unknown of, that are more powerful than anything that we have seen (probably the Phoenix Force).
March 25, 2017 6:18 p.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #48
Any thoughts on how the Gatewatch may fare against Bolas with the deus ex machina of the five gods on Amonkhet? I think that at least Oketra would help the, maybe the others if they're as benevolent as described by Hapatra as.
April 12, 2017 6:51 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #49
Oketra or Hazoret will be the one who kills Gideon at the end of the block. They're most definitely going to be on Bolas's side.
April 12, 2017 8:11 p.m.
I disagree that they'll be on Bolas side, because they don't appear to have memories of the way things were before Bolas invaded. They believe his false mythology as much as the mortals. That said, one of them could still kill Gideon out of misguided devotion, only to discover their mistake and be struck down trying to turn on the God-Pharaoh.
Kiortio says... #2
I'm pretty sure Bolas would just like...eat Karn.
January 30, 2017 3:52 p.m.