Karn vs bolas?
Lore forum
Posted on Jan. 30, 2017, 3:50 p.m. by Dabean27
If they were to fight who would win? Besides ugin I'd say karn is one of the few to be able to stand up to big daddy bolas
atomic_moose says... #2
Karn has some advantages
would Nicol Bolas's signature "Maddening touch" work on a mechanical golem like Karn? If not, +1 to karn.
Karn is pretty dang tough too. If bolas straight ate him, I really don't think it would take Karn out. But Bolas can summon up meteors and all sorts of other terrible things. It would be a good fight.
Now sorin, ugin, and Karn vs bolas? Even better fight to see Bolas actually have to try for once.
August 11, 2017 12:06 a.m.
@atomic_moose
Is Bolas' touch even relevant here?
Karn couldn't win if he was sitting on top of Darksteel Forge.
August 11, 2017 1:05 a.m.
I honestly think people overrate bolas power he isn't almighty
August 11, 2017 1:22 a.m.
I'm also on team people overestimate bolas.
Sure recently he thrashed the Gatewatch but that's the Gatewatch and to be honest none of them are all that powerful or skilled compared to bolas. That and as we saw in Hour of Devestation his power set is just better versions of theirs. However Karn has always been probably about the same level of power since he is the legacy weapon urza built long ago Made his own actual plane and with stood the phyrexian oil. Add to that the fact that Karn was there when Gerard and Urza went up against Yawgmoth it goes without saying that Karn has faced the most evil villain in the multiverse and survived.
Also in legends a lone human no planeswalker warrior defeated post mending Nicol bolas essentially killing him until his spirit energies co mingled and reformed. Bolas can be defeated and while it may be out rageously difficult it is possible.
August 11, 2017 11 a.m.
Wow. You are so, so wrong. Many times.
Let's start with the fact that this thread was started prior to the Hour of Devastation finally. We already were arguing that Bolas was a superior opponent before he showed us just how impressively true that is.
To argue his powers are "just a better version of theirs" is a fallacy. He did use the same magic types or the perfect counters to their magic types in his battle with the Gatewatch (With the exception of Liliana, who he didn't actually combat), and he did so with more skill than they did in the cases where he "copied" them, that would be correct to say. However, he did so not because that is all he can do, but because he very specifically wanted to defeat the Gatewatch in that way. He wanted them scattered and doubting themselves, for what purpose is unknown. He is an Elder Dragon, which grants him enormous power. His power doesn't come from his skill or magic, but from his cunning, precaution, and planning.
Karn is not the Legacy. He is one of twenty-two pieces of the Legacy, most of which aren't useful unless they are united (Many people don't realize that such masterpieces as Juju Bubble and Chimeric Sphere are pieces of the Legacy). In that case, they become useful only to create a powerful collection of white mana specifically for killing Yawgmoth. That is it. Karn is merely a silver golem, which is mostly only useful for time travel, except he has no machine to make use of that.
He is of course a planeswalker, and pre-mending, that allowed him to create his own plane and send out the Mirari, which created an unreasonable amount of problems by merely existing and traveling, despite being merely a probe. But post-mending, his Planeswalker's Spark really only lets him travel the multiverse. He didn;t even escape the threat of Phyrexian compleation alone, it was thanks to the small group which went to rescue him from Phyrexia's Core giving him one of their sparks, the force of which expunged the Glistening Oil from him. Without that, it was very close to fully compleating him into the Phyrexian patriarch that the Praetors wanted him to be.
Yeah, Karn was present when Yawgmoth died, because he was part of the Legacy, and that was why he was there. Being manipulated by more-or-less sheer coincidence to be turned into a cog in a machine with the express purpose to destroy one specific being, no matter how powerful that being is, doesn't make the cog terribly impressive. Or at least, it doesn't lend said cog the credibility in facing off against a foe who has manipulated cogs in innumerable other similar machines, at least two of which he has now personally defeated as part of putting them in yet another machine.
And to your last random, nonsense point, he was killed Pre-Mending, not post. The person that you claim killed him was more or less just a distraction for something else to kill him, and it was only his body that was killed, as his mind was separated in part so he could subvert a situation like this without major problem, which he did exactly as he expected.
As it stands, Bolas has never really been defeated. Some of his plans have been stopped, but Bolas lives for contingencies. Any failed plans become the groundwork for his backup plans upon backup plans. He calculates every risk and anticipates every mistake. Yes, he could be defeated, in very few, very specific situations that are already handicapped against him -- which is a huge give -- but to say without question that any character could actually defeat Nicol Bolas is not a claim that can be made confidently given the information we have.
August 11, 2017 9 p.m.
Bolas has been defeated twice once by a human once by ajani he's hasn't been killed but he's been tricked and out smarted he's not god he's not all powerful he just wants you to think he is stop overrating him
August 11, 2017 10:52 p.m.
When defeated by a human he was literally away from his body. His body and mind were separate which is why it didn't kill him.
Ajani never defeated Bolas. That's just a lie. This of course is precisely the reason why Ajani told the rest of the Gatewatch not to go to Amonkhet and to gather their strength and find allies. Thus Ajani didn't go to Amonkhet, being the only Gatewatch member that didn't.
August 12, 2017 1:24 a.m. Edited.
He did beat bolas though not in a out right fight but he stopped bolas from doing what he wanted and made him flee the plane sounds like a defeat to mez
August 12, 2017 3:30 a.m.
Did you not read any of my explanation, Dabean27? Ajani stopped his plan to devour the Maelstrom and destroy Alara in the process, yes, but that does not equate to defeat against a being with contingencies upon contingencies for just such a situation.
August 12, 2017 11:06 a.m.
In my opinion here's the only way bolas would be going down and it's very unlikely. First Ajani following his idea to find more allies to fight bolas rather then face him down head on ends up on Tarkir where he runs into Sarkhan vol and Ugin. Explaining how he and the gatewatch are planning to take down Bolas Ugin and Sarkhan decide to join up and Ugin goes off to inninstrad where he finds sorin stuck in some rocks, frees him and asks him where Nahiri is. He ends up tracking both of them down and explains how Bolas set them off against each other and released the eldrazi so that they will stop their ceaseless bickering and help him take his rival down. This is the first of the incredibly unlikely events that would have to happen to defeat Bolas. The second one would be that Ajani, Sarkhan, Ugin, Nahiri, Sorin, and whoever else Ajani rustles up figure out where Bolas is planning to planar warp to as well as where the bridge is located. Then Nahiri using her lithomancy would set up a trap and alter leylines so that when bolas arived he wouldn't be able to cast spells on them similar to what she did to sorin during their fight. Meanwhile Sarkhan and a few minor helpers would show up at the planar bridge itself to destroy it so that Bolas Wouldn't be getting any backup from his eternal army and wouldn't be able to use the portal to escape. At this moment I think Tezzeret who would be at the planar bridge operating it might decide this is the next big chance to be free of bolas and will allow them to destroy it. Thus Bolas is stuck fighting Ugin, Sorin, Nahiri, and whoever else they end up having with them while not being able to cast spells at them without them hitting him back in the face and no back up. (this is assuming he didn't plan for such a thing and showed up before the army so he could have it dramatically appear behind him as he exclaims the doom of whatever fool plane he plans to invade all of which is unlikely but not impossible.)
August 12, 2017 12:32 p.m.
So, a lot of huge gives?
I rest my case. You've made my point.
August 12, 2017 3:42 p.m.
So at this point I think we can all say Bolas.
The only two real current entity that can truly out class Bolas is Gaea and Serra*(if you be leave she and her plane are part of Karn, hence still pre-mending planeswalker) also, as a Honorable mention Niv-Mizzet could pose a real challenge to Bolas as one of few who could out out think Bolas.
wbroomhead says... #1
Going back to your comment #16, kanokarob, we know from the Time Spiral block lore that Jhoira and the scientists from Shiv (with Teferi) are capable of an artificial planeswalking machine (well, I guess we don't know if it actually works, since Venser was a planeswalker and piloting it), but who's to say that they couldn't continue to experiment with the rifts? That's where we left off with Teferi, trying to find some way to get Zhalfir phased back into existence. All that would need to happen is a "return to Dominaria", and have Jhoira try to reach out to Karn again (like in the planar chaos/future sight books), and potentially have some sort-of time machine (or rift manipulator) to reach the possible scenario you propose. This could a reason why we got Jhoira in a duel deck recently - foreshadowing this return to Dominaria?
April 21, 2017 4:22 p.m.