LGBTQ+ in the multiverse
Lore forum
Posted on Aug. 16, 2021, 9:29 p.m. by Wendithewendigo
Are there any LGBTQ+ main characters in magic? I know there's nico aris and I think they were really well done. And as a queer person myself it's great to see people like myself represented in magic and I want to know if there are any others. (Side note: what group do you want to see represented in MTG?)
Wendithewendigo says... #4
I just read one of the stories and all I have to say is "damn"
August 16, 2021 9:50 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #6
Hallar, the Firefletcher (one of my faves!) and Alharu, Solemn Ritualist are both non-binary. Neither has enough lore to feel more than crammed in, but it was a step in the right direction...
August 16, 2021 10:18 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #7
Oh, and like 83 percent of the Gatewatch is lesbian
August 16, 2021 10:18 p.m.
I'm not sure but I think Nissa and Chandra were a thing... I used to really be into lore but kinda lost track after the origins reboot.
August 16, 2021 10:19 p.m.
Is there a toaster walker? I feel I'm not being accurately represented in the multiverse.
August 16, 2021 10:42 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #10
Icbrgr I believe you are correct. I should have been more clear with my last comment--they are part of whom I was referring
And as to the second part of the OP's question (thanks for reminding me, Ryotenchi), I'd love to see some more powerful and relevant BIPOC characters.
August 16, 2021 10:45 p.m.
When will they print a Deadpool walker? I'd be happy af. Lol.
August 16, 2021 10:52 p.m.
I am demiromantic asexual myself, yet this is not really an orientation I have found in anyone's skull.
August 16, 2021 11:03 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #13
Magic has a lot more queer characters then I thought it did, I'll have to read more about them all. And yeah, there aren't many powerful BIPOC planeswalkers, there's tefiri, (is narset powerful? I haven't read anything about her but hear her talked about a bunch), and I can't think of any others
August 16, 2021 11:06 p.m.
Halana, Kessig Ranger and Alena, Kessig Trapper are married.
Ral, Izzet Viceroy and Tomik, Distinguished Advokist are in a relationship - in the two cards linked, you can even see that Ral is carrying a piece of Tomik’s white cloth and Tomik a piece of Ral’s red cloth to indicate their connection.
Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter’s character blurb mentions how her wife died.
August 16, 2021 11:32 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #17
Wendithewendigo Narset is extremely powerful.
Omniscience_is_life technically indigenous people are represented in every set. Also why is black separate from PoC?
August 16, 2021 11:49 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #18
DarkMagician technically... but like, seeing townsfolk in the background of a Jace card isn't what I mean, especially if they're depicted as generically euro-looking. That's why I mentioned "powerful and relevant".
As far as your second question goes, I would do a bit of research--it's hard for me to give my answer on an online Magic forum :/
August 17, 2021 12:23 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #19
Omniscience_is_life I'm not speaking of people in the background of cards. Almost every legendary creature in a given set represents indigenous people.
August 17, 2021 12:27 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #20
DarkMagician it gets a bit complicated given we're talking about extraterrestrial humans here, but no young, impressionable indigenous kid looking for a fantasy hero that looks like her will be satisfied at Alena, Kessig Trapper. And that's all I'm concerned about here.
August 17, 2021 12:43 a.m.
I admit I have very limited knowledge of the lore but I was of the understanding that they retconned Chandra and Nissa's relationship in a shitty book during the War of the Spark era... Anybody know if that's still true? I believe the rumor at the time was that they did this so they could more effectively and safely push the product into Chinese markets.
I see you, Azeworai - you are valid :)
August 17, 2021 2:32 a.m.
Noire_Samhain says... #22
They basically went "No homo" with Chandra and Nissa in the War of the Spark novels, in a turn that peeved off the chunk of the fanbase that is LGBT+. Chandra is still canonically omni/pansexual. They screwed the pooch badly.
Niko Aris is nonbinary, going by they/them. They had a big part in the Kaldheim stories. Yahenni, Undying Partisan is nonbinary, from Kaladesh. And its not just because of their race being aether-elementals, Gonti uses he/him. Phenax, God of Deception is an example of a villainous LGBT+ character. He's attracted to men, though not sure whether he's ONLY attracted to them. But he will curse women he feels are taking "his" object of affection away from him.
August 17, 2021 9:27 a.m.
Noire_Samhain yeah that's unfortunately about how I remember it :( Do you know if Nissa's retcon is still canon or did they ever reverse it? I would hope that they realized how damaging that idea was. Nothing like erasing Queer characters on grounds they were 'confused.'
For anyone interested, Spice8Rack did a video with Amanda Stevens about specifically Trans representation in MTG. It's an interesting watch, if you have the time: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbT6PDHqksQ
August 17, 2021 11:07 a.m.
Noire_Samhain says... #24
There's not been much on Nissa in that department, sadly. She still seems to have had an interest in her, but the Zendikar stories had her brush aside thinking about Chandra, seemingly in pain still about the situation. So there's hope they do some correction.
August 17, 2021 11:15 a.m.
The backlash against the War of the Spark novel was so powerful that Wizards issued a formal apology. (Link.)
The author, Greg Weisman, issued his own apology, though he spent more time trying to blame everyone but himself. Also, the way his apology is written, he is technically apologizing for how the novel did not "meet anyone's expectations" rather than apologizing for what he actually wrote. Though, by all accounts, he is an inept and terrible author, so it is possible he was trying to do a real apology, but he wrote it just as ineptly as he wrote the WAR books. (Link.)
Though the exact details are unclear, the likely situation was a combination of two problems: (1) Wizards trying to downplay LGBT+ relationships so their books could be sold in countries where books containing such relationships cannot be published and (2) Weisman being a bad author who exacerbated the problem with his ineptitude.
That said, some good did come of this disaster. A little bit after the WAR novel was published, Wizards implemented a new policy: They now will no longer make story changes "to accommodate local markets" (read bow to government censorship of LGBT+ stories). Moving forward, if a story contains content that would be censored, Wizards is going to keep the story as-is, but refuse to publish the story in the market where it would be illegal. (Link.)
Noire_Samhain - I disagree with your point about Nissa--the Zendikar stories had her constantly thinking about Chandra. Pretty much every action she did involved her thinking about how Chandra would have acted or how Chandra would have responded. Like everything else in the Zendikar story, it was a poorly-written disaster, that seemed more focused on "we need to make up lost ground from the WAR book" than on creating a believable inner monologue.
August 17, 2021 11:31 a.m. Edited.
Noire_Samhain says... #26
I'll admit, its been awhile since I read those stories, as they seemed rushed and weren't that interesting, so it might have been my mind clinging onto one moment. My bad.
August 17, 2021 11:44 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #27
Depends on the country you're in. In china mtg has 0 LGBTQ+ characters. Most other places what everyone has listed is cannon.
August 17, 2021 2:08 p.m.
Ashiok is Ashiok. Then again, Ashiok might not be totally biological to begin with. And the preferred pronoun for Ashiok is Ashiok, with they/them being used just to avoid repetitiveness.
August 17, 2021 2:27 p.m.
Outside of gender identity, Narset is some flavor of neurodivergent (either autistic spectrum or ADD, most likely, going off her character). Adding in some more of that would be nice.
Personally, and from a storytelling standpoint, I'd like to see some more non-humanoid characters. Even a centaur or something, but I'll be really impressed if an octopus creature or starfishoid comes to prominence. It strains my suspension of biological belief when across all possible planes, subplanes, and timelines, almost every major good guy character has the same basic body plan.
August 17, 2021 2:57 p.m.
Oh dear. I hope Magic stays fantastical. I personally identify with Emrakul if I had to choose. I don’t need to be represented in Magic. Magic would be less… magical.
August 18, 2021 4:12 p.m. Edited.
Your post seems... a little out of left field and does not quite fit in with the topic of the thread itself, so I am generally curious what you were trying to say. Unless, of course, you are trying to say that greater representation in Magic is deserved of an "oh dear" and would decrease the "fantastical" elements of the game. Both those points, of course, would be wrong, so I assume you are not making any such silly comment.
August 18, 2021 4:38 p.m.
You got the idea of what I was saying. Cool. So it wasn’t that confusing. Just a disagreeable to you it seems. Not wrong. Just disagreeable.
August 18, 2021 4:45 p.m.
It is only a good thing for Magic to extend its representation of varying ethnicities, beliefs, body types, and onwards. Such decisions of inclusion and equity extenuate misereres of the game and permit recognition for making a bold choice.
In the best-case scenario, the decision to attribute a previously unrepresented facet of human life is no longer bold.
August 18, 2021 4:59 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #34
Why do you think that making it more inclusive would make it less fantastical Oof_Magic
August 18, 2021 5:09 p.m.
I am sure others will make the argument that inclusivity is important to marginalized cultures for a number of well-documented reasons.
I am going to address your other point--your rule makes for terrible storytelling. A bad story is one that simply tells a story--the characters do what is necessary to advance the story from point A to point B, without having much character themselves. Good storytelling is one that sells the world--it makes the world and its characters feel like living, breathing humans. Inclusivity makes the world feel more alive and thus helps immerse the reader in the story you are trying to tell.
Also, as a slight tangent, Emrakul is, without a doubt, the worst character in Magic's lore from a storytelling stance. Each and every iteration of her has been written slightly differently, since it is clear that Wizards has no clue what they want to do with her character. In fact, the only real consistent elements of her character arc are (a) inconsistency and (b) Wizards' poor understanding of Cosmic horror.
(Though, if you wish to discuss the tangent about how Wizards has royally messed up the Eldrazi's story, feel free to post on my wall--I don't want to derail this thread on that lore point.)
August 18, 2021 8:44 p.m. Edited.
Omniscience_is_life says... #37
Oof_Magic I believe the fundamental flaw of your statement is "Stories are about what characters do, not what characters are".
Because then what are backstories? Innate parts of who characters are that heavily influence their actions going forwards.
From what I understand of your argument, your point for why characters with divergent identities shouldn't exist is because they add "unnecessary fluff"--more so than any of the straight, white characters' identities do?
And I hear you speak of relating to a character making them uninteresting... maybe if you're comfortable/respected in your body, but for those where that's not the case, role models can be huge.
"Identities do not drive questions nor answers and therefore do not drive storytelling" is the last point I want to address. Stories with a pure Q-A-Q-A arc are awful without proper character building (identity building); the ethe of characters are innate to who they are, and what they DO--and you can't understand motivation without first understanding a character's moral compass, etc., i.e. identity.
August 18, 2021 8:57 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #38
Missed that Caerwyn posted. Read their point and you'll get a more eloquent version of mine :)
August 18, 2021 8:58 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #39
It drives people to be shown that they can create change, that they are not powerless. If a young queer kid grows up not seeing anybody like them doing anything great or amazing they'll start thinking that they can't do anything great or amazing. If you made lilliana and every other woman in magic it would show young girls who love that they can't do anything great. If a non binary kid grows up with not seeing any non binary people in media they'll think that they're alone. In minorities that aren't as visible it can make you feel like there is nobody like you out there. I identities will also present story points that the writers and creators can build on, sutch as one of Alesha who smiles at Death's stories (The Truth of Names). It opens to door to new relationships and conversations as well both in the fictional world and in the real world. Characters can also act differently due to who they are, and how they are treated. If somebody is discriminated against for who they are then they will make choices with that in mind. And beyond that,it's more about how it impacts the real world than the characters in the game.
August 18, 2021 9:06 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #40
Also, if identities are unnecessary then why not make everybody formless blobs without any identity at all, I don't think that would be a fun game
August 18, 2021 9:09 p.m.
I do see the importance of characters having functional vessels for their motivations. If I order a soda and get it in a cardboard box, I won’t be too pleased. It doesn’t make sense as a drinking vessel. I may prefer a bottle over a can but if I get it in a can, I can understand that and work with it. It definitely helps me relate to a character’s motivations when I can comprehend their form. But that form only needs to serve the purpose of being a vessel for the character’s motivations. As we see with the Eldrazi, formless vessels come with incomprehensible motivations. And as we see with the Eldrazi, that can serve a purpose in its own right. You don’t need to be that character to make sense of their motivations. I will never be a force wielder like Darth Vader but I can understand his motivations. I will never be a mad Titan but I can understand Thanos’s morivations. The vessels serve their function of channeling the character’s motivations.
August 18, 2021 10:07 p.m. Edited.
I want to expand on your post Wendithewendigo, since I think you limited what you were trying to say in a manner that left you open to the counter argument above. Role models are important, but they are only a small fraction of the sociological importance of representation. Here is what I think you were going for:
Representation is not just about making role models, for role models are only a small benefit from greater representation. Representation is about justifying one’s very existence. When certain views are excluded from stories, that creates an impression that those views are abnormal - that they are not commonplace enough to be represented.
Hence why it is important, from a sociological standpoint, to increase representation. That means across the board increases - protagonists, antagonists, and background characters should all represent the diversity of their worlds to ensure folks feel represented. To ensure folks feel like their particular identity is something normal.
August 18, 2021 10:18 p.m.
Wendithewendigo says... #44
Thank you Caerwyn you summed it up better than I could and you brought up points that I didn't think of
August 18, 2021 10:34 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #45
I must admit I agree, in some small way, with Oof_Magic. Not entirely, but what I agree with is that a character should be viewed, weighed and loved (or rightfully-so hated) on the merits of their choices, decisions, determinations, actions and causes. I understand people want representation of their own groups in their favorite mediums, and having representation is a wonderful thing. It shows insight, forethought, consideration and compassion. It helps bring communities together, helps overcome hurdles in society, brings awareness and helps those struggling with themselves feel more free and accepted.
It can be a wonderful and beautiful thing.
But sometimes I feel like it's done wrong, not just in MTG but in many areas, where the Race / Gender is made first and the rest are developed afterwards.
Someone's race and gender are, in my opinion, rather shallow points to base the merits of someone on. There is far more, in depth perspectives you could be developing other than who they like to shag up with. Slapping Race / Gender on something first and poorly developing the rest behind it is the wrong way to do it. It shows a hastey development akin to clickbait.
- "HEY LOOK AT US WE REPRESENTED XYZ AREN'T WE THE BEST GIVE US MONEY NOW PLS!"
There is nothing wrong with representation when it is done correctly.
My issue is that often times, it isn't.
August 18, 2021 11:43 p.m. Edited.
Wendithewendigo says... #46
Yes, I'm not trying to say that it should be full of token characters
August 18, 2021 11:45 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #47
TypicalTimmy I agree 100%. 1000000%, even. Nowhere did I claim that WotC gets a free pass to make bad characters just by representing marginalized groups with them, only that it's silly to not make any characters of the sort.
I don't think anyone's saying bad, representative characters are ok. They're generally a cash grab, and almost more racist than their exclusion.
August 18, 2021 11:52 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #48
As for racial or gender representation, I do not have a true opinion or say in the matter. I'm what you all might call a "CIS-gendered white male", which often comes with some degree of insult these days.
Though, I suppose if you want to be technical, I'm not 100% "white".
On my dad's side, our heritage comes from Norway. Our family immigrated from Norway to America in the 1840s and 1850s to settle farmland. We also went into Bavaria, around the same time. Once settled in America, his side began to marry German immigrants. So, on my dad's side, it's pretty snowy.
But on my mom's side, some of her family members are 100% Native American. Some left their tribe to marry people of others, some stayed. My grandpa on her side is 100% Native American. He left his tribe to marry an "outsider".
So, there's some of that in me, too. That being said, in terms of culture, I think a Native American set would be awesome. Sure we saw a Maya / Aztec setting in Ixalan, but it'd be nice to see Native Americans also. My concern is that there are so many distinct tribes and peoples all with their own religions and faiths that I think it'd be done best like Tarkir did, with warring clans.
In terms of a world-building set, I'd love to see India represented. Sure we got a little bit in Kaladesh, but I think having a strictly India setting would be lovely, especially with their vibrant expressions of colors and emotions. There's a lot of potential there in Magic for a set based around them.
August 18, 2021 11:52 p.m.
States of being are not things you validate. I am what I am. I don’t see how that is or is not validated? Motivations, desires, and decisions, are validated. Validation is applied to why, not what. Justification is applied to why, not what. If you need your mode of existence validated or justified, I have to wonder whether that mode was a choice or desire. That or we are simply wrong in our terms.
I don’t need fiction to represent me. What is that doing for anyone both in the fictional universe and in the real world? Fictional characters can be inspired by or based on other fictional characters or real people. But what is this about representation? I never looked to find myself in any game, book, movie, or other medium. That takes me back to my original point. By seeking my characteristics to be represented in fiction, my reality invades the fiction. The worlds I escape reality to, become more aligned with the reality I’m trying to momentarily escape. My perspective of reality has become so important to me that it takes the magic and fantasy out of it to make way for that reality.
August 19, 2021 12:05 a.m.
Oof_Magic - Countless researchers in the field of sociology disagree with your above post. It’s all well and good to be confident in your own experiences, but it is also to remember you are not representative of everyone. When an entire field of social science says you are incorrect, and that representation is important to uncounted multitudes, perhaps you should take a step back and realise your worldview is not the only one, and might not even be the pervasive one.
I really do not understand why people are actively against inclusion - it makes for better worldbuilding and causes no detriment to the reader. To TypicalTimmy’s point about it feeling forced sometimes, that is not a problem with inclusion - that is a problem with bad writing (something Wizards has in spades). That is a separate issue entirely - I would go so far as to say it is a non sequitur to focus on bad writing as a counterpoint to the concept of inclusivity.
(edit: not trying to imply TypicalTimmy is against inclusivity; though the above could inadvertently be read that way.)
Scytec says... #2
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death is a trans character that they (in my opinion as a non-trans individual) did a really good job of representing in a respectful manner. She is also an absolute badass.
August 16, 2021 9:37 p.m. Edited.