missing guild symbols?
Lore forum
Posted on July 15, 2013, 7:41 p.m. by amishrambo
why in some card arts Maze's End the dimir symbol isn't there and in others Cartel Aristocrat the simic symbol is not there why is this?
Part of the original Guldpact was that the Dimir was supposed to stay a rumor, a myth, a legend, not a recognized guild. It's how Szadek managed to break the original - he got himself publicly arrested. Makes sense that Azor wouldn't want the symbol of the Dimir on a pillar of the site of the Guildpact.
July 15, 2013 8:42 p.m.
@erabel, that actually makes a whole lot of sense, since the Maze's End was created during hte time of Azor I.
However, although the Simic were dissolved at the end of the first Ravnica block, they were reformed under Zegana's merfolk during RTR block. The simic symbol not being in the art of Cartel Aristocrat is really strange because it's hinted that the orzhov and simic are heavy business partners (Miming Slime ). More likely it was an art oversight. I do really like the art of Cartel Aristocrat though, and how much it mirrors Falkenrath Aristocrat .
July 15, 2013 8:55 p.m.
Some hypothesize that the art for the Cartel Aristocrat depicts the Orzhov order if they ruled. Orzhov at the top, the government and military below them, the public services below that, and the heathens and heretics at the bottom. Simic isn't there because since Orzhov is essentially religion, it can be taken as the Simic create abominations against nature in the view of the Orzhov.
July 15, 2013 9:23 p.m.
amishrambo says... #6
followup questions:
- what was the "guildpact"
2.what caused ravinica to descend into chaos and what refromed it
- what/who killed momir vig and his creation?
July 15, 2013 9:55 p.m.
All these events are covered in the first Ravnica block.
The guildpact was a magical contract between the ten guilds that established a set amount of rules and laws, and dictated what the guilds could and couldn't do. Basically, it kept the balance of power that wasn't controlled by any one guild, but a guild that broke that contract would be severely punished by the contract's magic.
The breaking of the guildpact was done by Agrus Kos, who broke it by killing Szadek, Lord of Secrets , who was the dimir guildmaster at the time. Agrus had to do it at the moment, but the arcane rulings of the guildpact were manipulated by Szadek so that the guildpact would be dissolved in the act of Agrus killing him.
After his physical death, Szadek existed as a spirit and was able to control the spirit realm (at the time, souls in Ravnica could not dissipate, and essentially when someone died their conscious spirit lingered in a pseudo mirror-plane of Ravnica. But that's a different story).
At this period of time, it had been 10,000 years since the guildpact was signed. So essentially, all the guilds who had been unable to fight each other, but still held long-simmering grudges against each other, erupted into war, since they weren't held by the guildpact. Szadek's goal was to use this chaos to take power for himself.
After a bunch of events (covered in the novels), the good guys win, and the bad guys are defeated. But the guildpact is still broken, and while the guilds are at peace they could go to war again. So a new guildpact is written, but this one exists strictly on paper. It again dictates the laws that the guilds may follow, but by no means magically restricts them. (for any Teysa, Orzhov Scion /Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts fans out there, Teysa Karlov was a main character during this time period, and essentially wrote the new, paperbound guildpact).
- Momir Vig created Experiment Kraj , which was essentially his idea of the perfect ruler for Ravnica. It's complicated, because Novijen, Heart of Progress , the simic headquarters, is kraj, and Vig is inside kraj at the time. Vig planned to control kraj from the inside but Agrus Kos (again) murderized Vig. Kraj, now having no controlling mind, went on a rampage, and eventually fought Rakdos the Defiler , a la Godzilla style.
July 15, 2013 10:31 p.m.
the guildpact was an ancient spell which magically enforced certain rules on the guilds. It was agreed to by all of the leaders of the guilds, and kept Ravnica basically safe for thousands of years.
The breaking of the guildpact at the end of the original Ravnica block sent Ravnica into chaos, and it only recently (the last 10-20 years, I believe) restabilized. The guildpact was never reformed, although I believe the events of Dragon's Maze left it just about to be reformed, though I'm not 100% on the lore there.
No idea. Can anyone help out here?
July 15, 2013 10:37 p.m.
amishrambo says... #10
whistle dam kray you know your stuff and that's some messed up stuff happened in the old ravnica. I just have a couple more questions
- does the orzhov now tend to the souls of ravnica?
2.does the azorius enforce the new guildpact?
who/what made the original guildpact?
why isint there a kraj vs rakdos duel deck?
July 15, 2013 11:06 p.m.
amishrambo says... #11
dam I just read what happened to all the simic guild members turns out kraj is pretty much a glob of cytoplasm with basic brain bouncing around and when mormier died he was the only thing keeping that thing from going AWOL and when he died the beast turned to instinct-mode and started to absorb every bit of cytoplasm from miles around but the problem is that cytoplasm is a key component in simic body alteration so nearly EVERY guild member got sucked in and "eaten" by karj. (im guessing at this point) but everthing before gatecrash the simic guild was dead but the resurgence of merfolk long thought to be extencnt in ravnica see Merfolk of the Depths and bringing the new guildmaster Prime Speaker Zegana and a flood of new guild members but since they where just starting to swell in numbers the orzhov didn't notice them (or just didn't care) so that's why you don't see the simic symbol in Cartel Aristocrat
July 15, 2013 11:28 p.m.
(1) The guildpact was one of the things keeping souls from leaving ravnica, after it was destroyed they dissipated. The orzhov's method of using contracts to chain souls is different from this.
(2) No one enforces the new guildpact. It's just a paper document that everyone's agreed upon.
(3) A kraj vs rakdos DD would be really cool, but at the time of the original Ravnica block duel decks didn't exist. To do one now would make many players wonder wtf a kraj is.
July 15, 2013 11:59 p.m.
amishrambo says... #14
I would just love to se a alt art karj the size of a city block
July 16, 2013 12:02 a.m.
the3rdH0kage says... #15
Caution, this post contains major plot spoilers in this post from the Ravnica and Rerturn to Ravnica block novels
The Guildpact: The Guildpact is a ancient magical document stating what the 10 guilds can and can't do.
What is the Maze:The Maze is essentially a fail safe that will reveal itself when the Guildpact is broken, like after the R:CoG block. Made by the Azorious parun (origanal leader and creator of the guild) Azor.
How it was broken: When Szadek was arrested by Agrus Kos, the Guildpact was broken because the Dimir came out as a guild, when the guildpact stated that the Dimir can't reveal their existance.
How it was fixed:When the 10 guilds ran the Maze, Jace went with Emmara Tandria (obviously). At the Maze's End, Lazav the Dimir Guildmaster, is trying to sabotage the guilds into destroying each other by causing choas. Because the requirement for the Guildpact to be reinstated is that the guilds must run the Maze and cooperate with each other. Lazav goes around after the 10 Maze Runners finish the maze inpersonating the person that he is in the guild and tells them to fight with members of the other guilds, Jace settles the problem with miond magic and with Jace being the person that unified the guilds the Baliff makes Jace the embodiement of the Guildpact. Meaning the he is the Guildpact and tells the guilds what they can and can't do.
I figure I skipped some stuff on how it was broken (it's been a few moths since I read the Ravnica novels), and there are probably many typos, but I'm tired and stuff so whatever.
But to answer the legit question of the post, the Simic was pretty much non-existant at the end of the Dissension novel.
July 16, 2013 12:12 a.m.
amishrambo says... #16
wow its kinda sad when a mind mage is better peacekeeper then you Gideon, Champion of Justice
Arachnarchist says... #2
I would hazard a guess that there is no Dimir symbol on Maze's End because the Dimir are mostly an underground organization.
As far as Cartel Aristocrat goes, someone at my local game store explained it to me (not sure how accurate this is): At the end of the first Ravnica block when all hell was breaking loose, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary died and so did Experiment Kraj , which nearly wiped out the simic.
July 15, 2013 7:52 p.m.