Predictions of what the fall of the Titans will mean?
Lore forum
Posted on Feb. 24, 2016, 2:49 p.m. by Rayenous
So, 2 of the 3 Eldrazi Titans have fallen.
Ugin has stated that he believes the death of these ancient beings will have consequences for the Multiverse.
Noteably, he said he has his 'suspicions' as to what can come of this, but did not even hint as to what he thinks will happen!
My attentions are pulled by 2 very different trains of thought.
1) Eldrazi Titans are linked to Planeswalker sparks. - Eliminating all of them will mean the end of all Planeswalkers.
2) There is no risk, and Ugin knows this. - Eldrazi Titans are Ugins creation and he's pissed that the Gatewatch has killed his pets. - He is now selectively taking parts from the fallen corpses in hopes of reassembling their burned husks into something equally devastating.
Your thoughts on what the Fall of the Titans will mean?
Ugin doesn't strike me as the type of being that would create genocidal monsters. My guess is that the titans are actually part of Nicol Bolas' machinations. Ugin kept them trapped so Bolas could not use them. That would be why Bolas attempted to kill Ugin on Tarkir, so he could free the titans, perhaps in the hope that they would be killed. Maybe the titans are locks holding back an ever greater threat, or perhaps a source of enough mana to reverse the effects of The Mending or to fuel a spell that will return him to pre-Mending form. And now only Emrakul is preventing something much worse from happening.
February 24, 2016 3:05 p.m.
I think you may have missed a part of the story arc.
These 2 Eldrazi Titans were 'pulled into' Zendikar. - Like a fish, caught on a line, pulling a fisher into the pond... Then devoured by a Flame Shark.
Ugin has confirmed that these 2 Eldrazi are indeed dead, not just their 'hands' that were in the Zendikar pond.
February 24, 2016 3:15 p.m.
I believe Ugin was saying that the physical presence of the titans was like the hand, with the rest of the body residing in the blind eternities. By pulling them entirely into the physical plane, they were able to kill the entire being, and not just cut off the hand.
February 24, 2016 3:21 p.m.
His theory wasn't wrong. - I believe you just misunderstood the theory.
His theory is that the 'visible/known' part of each titan, is just a part of the whole, and that each titan was only 'putting their hand in a pond'.
You appear to have mistaken that as 'each Eldrazi Titan is a hand belonging to a single being.' - i.e.: Ulamog = Left Hand, Kozilek = Right Hand, Emrakul = Middle? Hand.
February 24, 2016 3:25 p.m.
Ugin belives, that the Eldrazi are part of Blind Eternities' ecosystem (or something like ecosystem). Maybe that when they devour a plane, a new one is born from what's left or something like that. And so, killing them would have dangerous consequences. This is why he adviced to trap them, so that if his theory proved right and Eldrazi were truly vital to the multiverse, they could be released.
February 24, 2016 3:48 p.m.
I'll throw in with the theory of a greater evil because at the moment Bolas ain't cutting it and the phyrexians have yet to make a move. I'm hoping Emrakul eats a plane or two before she's killed but let's face it we need something truly terrifying in the multiverse. And I mean now we have a hero(or pseudo hero) in Ugin who is on par with bolas.
So unless Phyrexia does some ting soon we need threats to the multiverse.
February 24, 2016 4:23 p.m.
My guess is that the Eldrazi were a sort of "Garbage Collector" for the Multiverse. They prevented it from getting too crowded with planes. Now with them gone, the density of planes will start to rise, and, after hundreds or thousands of years, phenomena such as planes colliding may begin to occur.
February 24, 2016 6:20 p.m.
I don't think either of them are true.
The third option is that he genuinely believes that they served some purpose. Perhapse their culling of planes is meant to balance the multiverse. Maybe they are like the multiverse's white blood cells.
Or maybe the multiverse churns out planes at about the rate the titans devour them, maintaining a state of equilibrium.
Maybe they were designed as superweapons to fight Phyrexia or Nicol Bolas, heck if I know. (Though this is probably too far fetched.)
Regardless, I do not think that Ugin created them.
February 24, 2016 7:06 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #11
they're like Galactus from Marvel, they bring balance through what looks like utter destruction and death. Galactus is just one of the 5 forces of nature in Marvel, he isn't really "evil."
February 24, 2016 9:58 p.m.
RussischerZar says... #12
I dig the "devour planes in order to keep balance with newly created planes" theory but this would become relevant too far away in time that it would have no impact whatsoever on the Magic story, ever. In-universe it makes the most sense though.
I have another theory about the Eldrazi being some sort of power source for a lock or something similar that keeps an even bigger evil at bay. And in order to fuel this power source, they have to devour planes.
However the flaw in this theory is that they haven't devoured anything in the last six thousand years, therefore the bigger evil should've already appeared again ... or might be about to be released?
I also wonder what Kozilek did at Zendikar's core(?).
February 25, 2016 6:07 a.m. Edited.
RussischerZar I agree with you. But that ancient evil would only be unleashed when the Titans fell. Yes they haven't fed in thousands of years but they necessarily have to feed as long as they're kept alive and in stasis.
However now that two thirds of the Titans are no more whatever it's that's locked up is gonna test those bonds and do some damage before he busts out.
February 25, 2016 8:22 a.m.
So this question relates more to Ugin than the Eldrazi as far as the UR goes but shouldn't the changes made by Sarkhan when he went back in time had some kind of greater effect and CHANGE in the events that had taken place later down the line? I understand he didn't just bring Ugin back to life but basically began his regeneration process or something along that line? So Ugin still had a ways to go to being back in the picture but considering Sarkhan's involvement in events wouldn't this have caused changes in the present state of the multiverse's story line? Or does this boil down to the oh so headache inducing multiple timelines crossing garbage?
February 25, 2016 9:26 a.m.
RussischerZar says... #15
I don't think the Tarkir storyline has anything to do with this, with the exception of Ugin's presence.
February 25, 2016 9:33 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #16
Guys. What if Ula and Cosi were doing nothing but holding back Emrakul's true power? And now that they're gone, the seals have been broken, and Emeria will finally be able to destroy Zendikar once and for all.
February 25, 2016 9:35 a.m.
TMBRLZ: Wizards didn't want to get to the point, where "anything we've seen might have been changed and thus nothing is certain", so they said "the changes made on Tarkir somehow magicaly didn't in the least affect events happening elsewhere in the multiverse". Which is technicaly nonsence, because it means (among other things), that when Narsed first planeswalked (note, that she returned to and stayed on Tarkir, so that she wouldn't interfere with events outside - see that magic?), she ceased to exist. She never planeswalked in the original timeline and thus newer apeared on diferent plane in the original timeline, so even now, she never existed on a plane other than Tarkir (till present). But at the same time, when she planeswalked, she wasn't on Tarkir, meaning she was nowhere for a short time.
But back to the point - Sarkhan changing the past on Tarkir (magicaly) only affected Tarkir, nothing else changed.
February 25, 2016 9:38 a.m.
I certainly wouldn't say 'nothing but' holding back Emmy's power... They were certainly also devouring Planes.
Ugin has stated that he was able to confirm Emrakul isn't on Zendikar. - Even if your theory is correct, it would be some time before Emmy returns... Mainly because we were just on Zendikar, so I'm sure it will be a while before we return. But also because there is so little left on Zendikar that it would not seem enticing to Emmy; not worth the effort/risk for her. There would be far better options for Planes to devour.
February 25, 2016 9:42 a.m.
I'll try to explain how I see the time travel conundrum:
The original time line went from point A to point B
Each Plane had a parallel timeline which also went from Point it's point A to it's point B.
When Sarkhan travelled from point B to point A, an alternate time line was created going from Point A to a new Point C.
Each Plane also had a new parallel timeline which also went from it's point A to it's new point C.
When the events of Fate Reforge were complete, Tarkir's new 'stable' timeline became the Point A to Point C timeline.
All other Plane's 'stable' timeline reverted back to the original timeline of Point A to point B.
So any Planeswalker who traveled to Tarkir during that time would remember a Plane with no Dragons and would remember interacting with people on that Plane... even though the Plane always had Dragons and the Planeswalker never actually interacted with people on the Plane (or would have different interactions).
Inversely, Planeswalkers who traveled from Trakir (Narset) during that time would have interacted with individuals on that Planes A-C timeline (which ceased to exist). The Planeswalkers would have memories of that Plane and it's people on the new timeline... but after the Tarkir time effects, the people on the original time line would have never interacted with the Planeswalker, and thus would not share those memories.
February 25, 2016 10:06 a.m. Edited.
Guys does anyone else have a strong urge to just see Emrakul attack Alara? I just want one Emrakul vs progentitus Godzilla movie esque fight. I mean it does make sense looking at it like this:
Alara is a giant plane flourishing with life and engrossed in mana. It is literally an all you can eat buffet and Emrakul has barely eaten in the last 6,000 years. She's hungry and she gonna stuff her face with macn grixis esper over easy Bant melts naya salad and Jund fried chicken.
February 25, 2016 10:10 a.m.
What about Sarkhan's involvement in the multiverse though? Did he go back to his original timeline after his work in Fate and just become Sarkhan Unbroken?
Becoming the human leader of the Atarka clan doesn't just magically happen overnight. Or did it for him because he's Sarkhan and therefore Sarkhan?
If your theory is correct and Sarkhan didn't just go back to his timeline and magically become what he is now, then his involvement in the main timeline would have never happened. If it was still happening as his new timeline on Tarkir was happening, then you have two Sarkhans in overlapping timelines and generally that means divide by zero the universe collapses.
February 25, 2016 10:12 a.m.
Wizards explained that the events leading to Sarkhan's existence never occurred... he was never born. (From A-C Tarkir's perspective).
The current Sarkhan simply appeared on Tarkir (at point C).
He is the Point A-B Sarkhan who has been displaced into Point A-C Tarkir. This Sarkhan has all the memories of the original Sarkhan, and since he is the Point A-B Sarkhan, all interactions on other Planes (which are Point A-B) have taken place and are remembered by all.
Even if Sarkhan had ceased to exist, all interactions on A-B Planes would still have occurred and been remembered.
February 25, 2016 10:17 a.m. Edited.
So upon making the dynamic shift (being reviving Ugin) in the time-space, Sarkhan instantly vanished and a whole new timeline that was flashed forward to there being a Sarkhan Unbroken simply happened, that was self-contained into strictly the plane of Tarkir?
Not only that but this newly instantly formed Sarkhan also has all the memories of the Sarkhan Vol we used to know, and everybody else knows him, although he technically ever existed?
So a Sarkhan that, according to multiverse time-space, never existed, existed and influenced events and people? But he was never actually there? His ceasing to exist simply happened and his new existence simply happened?
So really the only place the time-space effect mattered at an existential level was in Tarkir? The only change outside of the plane was Sarkhan's "root" existence and having it be relocated to a new existence?
So - following this logic - here's a follow up question: Do time-space differentials only matter within their own plane? If that's the case then doesn't this mean that the multi-verse isn't one cohesive existence but rather multiple timelines and, I suppose as the name would insinuate, multiple universes thrown together in the same bag that's held together by loose thread?
February 25, 2016 11:10 a.m.
Not quite... I may have worded that part awkwardly.
Sarkhan Unbroken IS the Sarkhan of the A-B Tarkir. (Which is why he has all the memories... they ARE his memories.)
But, since he was the catalyst for changing the time-line, he was sent back to A-C instead of A-B (where he would have ceased existing, as the entire A-B timeline vanished).
The fact that Sarkhan's birth never happened in the A-C timeline is simply the reason for there not being 2 of him.
To answer the follow up: That part is unclear. - Some speculate that there is something special about Tarkir which allows it's time to be manipulated without effecting other Planes. - Others speculate that there are different types of Temporal Magics... some which affect the Multiverse, and others which affect Planes, and possibly some that affect only other segments of reality (individuals, 'linked' planes, continents, possibly even as small as atomic level).
February 25, 2016 11:59 a.m. Edited.
February 25, 2016 12:58 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #27
I'm going to set up in the Blind Eternities ecosystem camp. I don't know what purpose the Eldrazi serve in the big picture, but every piece of an ecosystem is important; removing one piece can cause the whole thing to collapse. That could certainly be a long term effect which only Ugin (and Bolas) would need to concern himself with.
February 25, 2016 5:48 p.m.
I have a theory (not serious), that explains it perfectly: Tarkir is a plural plane near the probability axis of the multiverse (see Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy for explanation) and Ugin's magic summons dragons from alternate Tarkir(s) :D But that would realy make it all (almost all) work - there always were multiple Tarkirs and only thing that changed is, which one is kind of dominant. Also Sarkhan would still be born (in now non-dominant alternate Tarkir), traveled back in time and "switched rails" to the new one.
Ej1997: Never thought of that, but it would make sence. Not only for what you said, but remember it was the other plot of Nicol Bolas. It would not be surprising, if the two were connected (releasing Eldrazi and the events of conflux).
February 26, 2016 6 a.m.
Just reading on another thread about Marit Lage.
Others have suspected that Marit Lage is an Eldrazi (based on images and generic all-out destruction)... but that concept was quashed by Wizards (though no one can seem to find the source).
What we do know for sure is that Marit Lage is not dead... just sleeping/dreaming.
Perhaps the Eldrazi are the Manifestation of Marit Lage's dreams. - Even in his sleep Marit Lage's powers could be strong enough to Annihilate entire Planes.
When/If all the Eldrazi are killed off, Marit Lage's dream ends... Marit Lage awakens.
February 26, 2016 10:36 a.m.
Could there be connections drawn between Marit Lage and the ancient ruins of the Merfolk gods (Eldrazi)?
February 26, 2016 10:52 a.m.
It could also explain why Bolas wanted to release the Eldrazi.
Knowing they would never be killed while trapped, he released them in hopes that other, naive, Planeswalkers might kill them off.
Why would Bolas want Merit Lage released?
Taken from a Lore Wiki HERE
"Some thousands of years later, Bolas fought a demonic leviathan in what would become the first planeswalker's duel on the still-young plane of Dominaria... In the end the dragon relied upon his touch to defeat his foe. After the battle Bolas feasted on the remains of the leviathan over the course of a year, absorbing its power in the process..."
If Marit Lage is the same species as the 'Demonic Levithan' and if Bolas believes he can defeat Marit Lage, he would want to reawaken this entity in order to find, kill and consume it. Bringing him one step closer to regaining his power levels from a pre-mending multiverse.
February 26, 2016 11:18 a.m. Edited.
Why didn't I think about that? It makes almost perfect sense since marit lage hasn't been seen in years and has not been confirmed to have been defeated. And I'm not sure if she is or isn't older then the eldrazi but if she is older then it makes sense that her malevolent nature would be powerful enough to manifest itself as the eldrazi.
And now bolas determined to regain his powers is starting from where it all began destroying a being if marit lages lineage. A lineage she herself my be the progenitor of.
But it makes one wonder are there any other monstrosities in the blind eternities we have yet to uncover?
February 26, 2016 11:34 a.m.
Even if Marti Lage is not older than the Eldrazi are said/believed to be, it could still occur.
When Marit Lage entered into the dream and began to dream of these Ancient Beings, the manifestations of the beings would also be ancient... meaning that all evidence of them, all the studies Ugin or Bolas may do would lead them to believe they were even older than Marit Lage... until they come to the realization that they are only manifestations.
For example... Assume I am able to manifest my dreams. I fall asleep and dream of my father. - When you look at my manifestation, and don't know it's a manifestation, you would not assume my father is younger than I am. - You would assume my father is the age he appears to be. - Only when you know he's a manifestation would you know he only came into existence when I started dreaming.
February 26, 2016 11:47 a.m. Edited.
Topdeckermtg2016 says... #34
Anyone think that the cult of vampires on Nephalia in SOI have been worshipping Marit Lage? What great and terrible evil would those vampires worship other than the eldrazi or Marit Lage?
February 26, 2016 3:43 p.m.
I could definitely see Marit Lage as having an influence in the initial creation of Demons on Innistrad.
February 26, 2016 3:53 p.m.
Topdeckermtg2016 says... #36
Marit Lage should have the planeswalker spark I believe too. So maybe Marit Lage planeswalked away and Bolas only ate an appendage of it. Bolas having a taste for Marit Lage's raw power wants to con the hero's into reviving it and getting it into a weakened state for Bolas to finish off himself.
February 26, 2016 4:15 p.m.
Marit Lage is/was not a Planeswalker, and is not the 'demon leviathan' that Bolas consumed (which was a Planeswalker, as this was the first 'Planeswalker Duel' on Dominaria).
"The Argivian scholar Arkol thought Marit Lage was a planeswalker, but he was wrong: she is a being of immense power, able to move across the planes but not by the same means planeswalkers can. "
Sauce! - LINK
February 26, 2016 4:25 p.m. Edited.
Topdeckermtg2016 says... #38
I suppose Bolas could try to eat Emrakul to gain her power also. I'm not sure what Bolas' angle is but I doubt he is strong enough to defeat Marit Lage by himself or defeat and consume all three eldrazi titans. Maybe that is the grand scheme of his machinations to con the hero's into doing his dirty work.
February 26, 2016 4:38 p.m.
Marit Lage awakens and wages war on the multiverse upon the death of Emrakul.
Planeswalker wonder team steps into action
Planeswalker wonder team gets wrecked
Planeswalker wonder team needs help
Nicol and Ugin have a meeting of the minds.
They team up for their mutual benefits
Planeswalker wonder team (and friends) with dragon homies attack Cthulu's evil ancient wife
Takes 2 blocks.
New prints of Ugin and Nicol
Potential card of Marit Lage? I could see the benefits for and against printing any representation of her beyond the Dark Depths.
Maybe just reprint that...
Yeah...
Conference call with J.J. Abrams, Disney, and Wizards.
Movie deal.
GO!
February 26, 2016 4:50 p.m.
I belive Marit Lage doesn't have planeswalker spark. Marit Lage is one of the few beings (the only other I can think of right now is Myojin of Night's Reach), that can travel between planes without the spark (I'm not counting Eldrazi, 'cause they don't realy travel from plane to plane, they just stay in the blind eternities).
February 26, 2016 5:04 p.m.
Also, Rayenous, do you realize, that your expanation of the time trawel would need a two dimensional time? Not saying, it's not possible, physicists work with 11 dimensional universe, so there could be 2 time timensions, but you generaly can't apply time on time itself.
March 1, 2016 5:31 a.m.
I was going to explain further how this fits into every currently widely excepted theory on multiple universes, and time travel... (except the current existence of Sarkhan) - But your Straw Man argument/debate would only lead to more needless arguments/debates over how to rationally apply time travel into a fictional story, from the perspective of us, who have not experienced time travel.
March 2, 2016 7:55 a.m.
TMBRLZ,
It's speculation, based solely on the fact the set includes a token, but I'm hopeful we'll get a Dark Depths reprint in FTV:Lore ...
March 2, 2016 12:35 p.m.
clayperce: from the cards I can think of, Dark Depths + Marit Lage token would be the best. Also Wizards started to implement suplemental products more into the ongoing story (2015 commanders), so if Marit Lage realy appeares in the FTV, it might hint on her involvement in the story.
March 2, 2016 5:24 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #46
Back to the Eldrazi, could it be that Ulamog=left hand, Kozilek=right hand, Emrakul=Heart?
My idea, is that for right handed people, the left hand isn't good for delicate tasks. Hence, Ulamog is destruction. Kozilek, the dominant hand, can perform more delicate tasks such as distorting things without breaking them.
Emrakul only affects living things. Therefore she can twist the life of those in her power by sharing her own life with them (through Eldrazi Conscription). The source of all life (mythically speaking ofc) is the heart.
This theory allows Wizards to release a "brain" Eldrazi, and also creates a situation where Kozilek and Ulamog can be revived by twisting a being of immense power
March 12, 2016 5:49 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #47
Also, it may be that Emrakul, unlike the others, is completely. Every time an Eldrazi is slain, their power may move to Emrakul. As a result, killing Ulamog and Kozilek will make Emrakul incredibly powerful, until she is able to regenerate those two
addaff says... #2
Neither. If anything it's a plot for bolas to get his premending powers back.
February 24, 2016 2:50 p.m.