The Gatewatch Problem
Lore forum
Posted on Dec. 11, 2018, 1:12 p.m. by ZendikariWol
Think back through all you know of the characters we're rolling with. Think about the personality traits they exhibit. How many of them are really interesting? How many of them are you invested in? I can't help but get the feeling that the gatewatch is a cast of super bland characters. Try to prove me wrong below, but for now I'll state my claim.
So what are the times WotC has tried to develop these characters?
In the BFZ block (yes, we're going back THAT far), no one got any significant development. Gideon and Chandra dealt a little with the the taxes of responsibility, Jace was an annoying prick, Nissa was concerned about her world, and other than that? Nothing.
In the SOI block, no one got any significant development. You could argue that Lili got some, but mostly she just got introduced. Other than that, it felt like a poorly-made mystery plot; find this clue, then that clue, then another (which is a shame because I love the premise of the protectors, particularly angels, going nuts).
In the Kaladesh block, no one got any significant development. Chandra's still a rebel, fighting the power. Gideon is still just some good guy. Jace and Nissa don't even seem to know why they're fighting this fight, other than cuz their friends are fighting.
In the Amonkhet block, no one got any significant development. Gideon had something interesting going with the whole 'learning to love the gods' deal, but then the gods were wrong and that thread went nowhere. Nissa is supposed to have gotten wiser somehow from the Trial of Knowledge, but she hasn't had a chance to show it if she has. So far she has showed 0 change at all.
In the Ixalan block, Jace got a TON of development! Suddenly he had a look at himself and he didn't really like what he saw! The character changed, his perception of other members of the cast changed, but we have yet to actually see him in action so... who's to say whether WotC is going to be consistent with this?
In the Dominaria... set, Lili got some development? They had a really interesting arc with her coming out of her shell, and it would have lead to a super interesting dynamic when Jace rejoined the team, with him learning to trust her again, just after she finally learned to trust anyone. Then Bolas got her. You're shitting me. She finally gets interesting and YOINK!! Snatched away by Bolas. The worst part of this is, chances are you can see exactly where it's going. Maybe Wizards is gonna pull something unique and interesting but chances are they're just gonna go the 'Oh wow, she betrayed us! Just when we thought we could trust her! Can we ever trust her again?' route. That's such a boring and overdone cliché! I really hope WotC does something clever with it, but somehow I doubt it.
So yeah folks that was my rant. If you want to debate any of what I've said here, I'm fascinated as to what you have to say, I'm sure there's something I've overlooked.
That Nissa is the best; maybe not best card but it is her best character.
I think another problem the Gatewatch has is they are all planeswalkers. Yes I know that's what is needed for the story so they say but I hope to see the Weatherlight come in with non PW heroes for some time as it will give us heroes that have to work together and punch up. As it stands the Gatewatch is really having to stretch to find threats that are of there power level or just have to dumb them down for the story.
December 11, 2018 3:32 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #5
Actually, TypicalTimmy, that was something I wanted to bring up.
You said that (and I agree) one of the big reasons for this lack of consistency and character development. Do you think switching to one author would fix this issue? Do you think there are other ways of solving this problem?
December 11, 2018 4:27 p.m.
I agree with Icbrgr's comments on Nissa, and was going to post the exact same thing. In her prior iterations, Nissa was pretty much a racist (planesist? Some sort of -ist). However, for the sake of making the Gatewatch seem "good," this character flaw was removed from her personality--after all, we can't have our good guys being racists--that's bad guy territory!
But that makes for a great character flaw, and one we do not typically see in modern literature. It gives her room to grow--to embrace other cultures and planes, realizing Zendikar stands stronger when she can learn and build alliances elsewhere.
Nissa's rage-quitting the Gatewatch on the grounds she shouldn't be wasting time on other planes when Zendikar needs help seems promising.
Jace had some good development in Ixalan, but who knows how long that would last. After all, it is kind of a defining point of his character to regularly have his memory wiped. He has a lot of potential, but I feel it has never been utilized well.
After all, there's only so many times I can read about Jace's memory being lost before I grow tired of that story.
I hated Liliana's character development in Dominaria. It felt very forced--"oh, she's hanging around Gideon and making a good friend! Now she feels all warm and fuzzy inside!" It is a fine direction for her character to go--realizing she needs to rely on others--but it did not feel particularly organic.
I think there's some good potential for her now that she is in Bolas' clutches. Fighting against people controlling her is what she does best, and I think there is a lot of room for her to use her wits to follow the letter of Bolas' orders, while in her actions helping the Gatewatch.
Chandra is a pyromancer. She burns things. This is what she does. Oh, she is also angry. This is a story we have heard before and displays a clear lack of originality. Amusingly Chandra is now hanging out with Old Grumpy Chandra (Jaya). I don't see her character going anywhere, even with Jaya teaching Chandra to control her emotions better.
I think they wasted a lot of potential with Jace. Every time he grows as a character, he loses his memories, and his entire story starts again from scratch. Reading about Jace's memory loss once is fine; twice sure gets dull pretty quickly.
Gideon is Lawful Good, in every sense of that word. As an avid D&D player and DM, I have seen many* people fall into the same trap--when they play "Lawful Good" they think only of the being staunchly dedicated to their good moral code.
Interestingly, the Player Handbook explicitly provides some information about how to make a Lawful Good character more interesting. Rather than treat Lawful Good as a single alignment, break it into two parts--Lawful, where you care about a set of morals, and Good, where you care about doing what is right. Then make it so those two do not always align with one another, forcing internal conflict between Lawful and Good.
Gideon always seems to have his moral side mesh with his belief in doing what is right. In Dominaria, he jumped right into helping Liliana because "we need to do good; she can help us do good if she is free from her contract; I am helping a friend; everything is good." He didn't really have any doubts--he just mechanically moves forward on very predictable rales.
Jace's memory issues really hold back his character. Forgetting your character development, and suddenly regaining your memory is one thing--you have to mesh your pre-forgetting persona with the person you have developed since the memories were lost.
But doing that story three times or more... I think we get the picture.
Personally, I am hoping that we move away from the Gatewatch, and the Weatherlight crew becomes front and center. It would be nice to have a different team to follow. Then Wizards can alternate between groups, keeping the main characters from growing stale.
December 11, 2018 4:28 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #7
I just really wish they had taken the time to develop Nissa's loss of racism. Watching the allies on Zendikar work would have done the job and added complexity to her character, but I can see why they removed it.
Jace's memory wiping feels so wrong to me. I have to assume he'd be able to feel it or something. I do, on the other hand, believe that this instance of memory wiping was executed perfectly. It was used to give the character some much-needed introspection, which he acted on. It's been the highlight of the whole story for me.
I agree with you on Lili's potential semantics being fun, but like I said above, it's probably not going to focus on that.
This may seem a hot take, but I would like to move away from all recognizable characters as leads. I want a new story on an old plane, preferably Alara, with a totally original character.
December 11, 2018 4:50 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #8
I have to say, you are right mostly. I do think Nissa has a bit more going for her then you say. I do really want to see a card named Nissa, Hand That Moves :)
December 11, 2018 11:24 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #9
I actually disagree with many of these points against the Gatewatch characters. Unfortunately I don't have enough time right now to put together proper rebuttals the way I would like but if I get the chance I will.
Nissa is my favourite. I used to be so-so on Jace but his pure curiosity and ingenuity on Ixalan allowed me to relate very strongly with him so I like him a lot now too.
December 12, 2018 1:03 a.m.
I personally lost interest in the gatewatch when they killed 2 eldrazi on Zendikar. I mean, sure, I get setting up your new cast to be powerful, but more powerful the 3 oldwalkers in Ugin, Sorin and Nahiri, who merely managed to seal the Eldrazi, I do not buy it.
The problem is they are focused on forcing us to like those characters in the most stupid way possible - they make them flawless. The 5 mono colored members of the gatewatch (Teferi and Ajani are excluded, since they were late to the party and are yet to do anything for said Gatewatch) are the literal embodiments of their colors and for all of them, only the good parts of that color.
Additionally, since their introduction, none of those have grown in any meaningful way over the course of 2 years.
TLDR - Wizards have given us 0 reasons to care for these characters. How many of you found the one-shot stories from the perspective a guildmember in GRN more intersting than any story in Shadows over Innistrad?
December 12, 2018 2:34 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #11
Haha. Funny you should mention writing, TypicalTimmy. I'm an aspiring author myself, and, coincidentally a GM (the Pathfinder equivalent of a DM), though I'm just a young'un- a high school senior. But the one thing I do write well is characters, and I can see when characters are done poorly. It just sticks out to me.
So, speaking of fan fiction... I kinda wanna rewrite this all from BFZ forward, make it my own little headcanon. My writing is incomparable, I'm sure, to the pros at wizards, but honestly I think that without the character muddling it might be worth a shot!
December 12, 2018 9:25 a.m.
TypicalTimmy - I disagree with your conclusion, that the major issue with the lore is multiple writers leading to inconsistent character development. To the contrary, I think the problem is that Wizards' use of multiple writers leads to too much consistency in character.
I know, on its face, that seems a contradiction--how can multiple people result in too much consistency?
Take a look at most of the posts on this thread, or any other thread discussing Magic lore. The biggest complaint about the characters is not schizophrenic personas, but, rather, the fact they are stagnant, safe representations of very basic character archetypes.
Having a very simple, one-faceted character is a lot easier for many authors to work with--after all, they can all base themselves on the archetype, leading to consistency in character between authors. If Person A, whose story goes first, doesn't make any big changes to GENERIC PYROMANCER ARCHETYPE, Person B can safely write their own story based around GENERIC PYROMANCER ARCHETYPE without running into conflict with Person A's work.
The flow of the story is not the only concern that would lead to management's decision to stick with basic archetypes--the quality of the writing is also a factor.
The people who write for Magic tend to range from the low end of mediocre to passable. Even if you could have a chart setting forth a character's development, there's inevitably going to be issues of inconsistent skill tainting that character's journey.
So, to answer your fundamental question--do I think having a single author would help the story? Perhaps--though they probably would need to hire someone a bit more talented. That said, I do not think a single author is necessary, and fully understand there are logistical problems to an author pumping out a weekly short story. So, what can Wizards do to ensure better storytelling, while keeping multiple authors?
Let's move out of Magic for a second, and look at the world of television as an example. Specifically, let's look at Game of Thrones, as there is a clear shift in quality relevant to the present discussion. Episodse of Game of Thrones are consistently written by a different writer, but there's incredible consistency in the first few seasons. Why? They had a clear vision for which to base their characters on, guided, in this case, by Martin's works. Each episode flowed seamlessly into one another, and you could not really see a difference in writing style.
Right up until they lost their vision (ran out of books) and tried to write their own material without a clear guiding principal. That's when plot holes began, characters started making choices against their nature, and the entire show started to get a bit ridiculous.
Game of Thrones, and other television shows, demonstrate it is possible to have multiple authors write the same story while maintaining consistency and complexity. However, for Wizards to do this effectively, they will need (a) a very clear vision for their characters AND the characters' development paths, allowing different authors to work simultaneously and (b) to hire better talent.
December 12, 2018 10:08 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #13
Okay so, what are some potential solutions for the problems we've presented? I have a couple but I'm fascinated to hear yours (all of you, not just cdkime).
My suggestion to wizards would be to make a detailed plot skeleton before actual writing of where, emotionally and physically, the plot and characters are, episode by episode.
December 12, 2018 11:34 a.m.
My idea - separate the story from the game as much as possible. How this helps:
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Allows for better worldbuilding (a strenght of Wizards) and better story that is not constrained within the current events - eg. the one-shots with characters from the Ravnica guilds.
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Allows marketing to not interfere in the story - eg. To help with marketing the game, the company decided to create a team of superheroes, also known as planeswalkers, named the Gatewatch. In their first outing, to cement their position in the story, the killed the strongest beings in universe. Two of them at once. Which was an awful story.
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Stories should compliment the card game, and not be the basis for it. NEither should stories be written to justify the cards being created. Eg. Is it ever explained in the story how Nissa, Steward of Elements is now UG? However - "Nissa is supposed to have gotten wiser somehow from the Trial of Knowledge, but she hasn't had a chance to show it if she has. So far she has showed 0 change at all."
December 12, 2018 12:51 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #15
I have some holes to poke in that, Boza.
1) We can't have one-shots forever. They're nice and all, but I much prefer how they were handled in SOI. Make the first chapter a series of one-shots to properly set the atmosphere of the world, then embark on a journey with our lead. sidenote- this could also be a good way of working in other authors!
2) I disagree on your labelling the gatewatch a marketing choice. I think it had more to do with them writing themselves into a corner with the Eldrazi. They were so huge a threat that three pre-mending walkers just sorta trapped them and called it good (one could argue that at the time Ugin simply didn't know how to kill them and the oldwalkers could easily have done the job, but I digress). The power level of the Eldrazi called for a group of walkers, and Wizards thought 'huh, maybe we could use this group as a way to tie up some of the larger, tougher loose ends in the story', and THAT is why they made the gatewatch. Not a marketing choice, but a story choice.
3) I also disagree with the story interfering less with the cards printed. I think that letting the story determine a good portion of the art and flavor text of the set, along with all of the legendary creatures and planeswalkers is the right call. Even basing nonlegendary cards on people we saw in the story (specifically the one-shots) is totally fine. But creative design needs to be about 30% of the set and the other 70 is RnD/gameplay design. I love art illustrating events in the set or legendary creatures that make a cameo, just make like 25 of those cards, tops, and let the other peeps do the rest.
December 12, 2018 1:28 p.m.
1/ I am definitely not saying to have one-shots forever, that was an example. However, the current story needs a break from following the planeswalkers around on their multiverse trotting adventure. The story is basically a bad version of Doctor Who - at the beginning of every block, we hop into a TARDIS and go to a new plane where there are problems - well, it is always a single problem. There is a threat to the whole plane aiming to destroy its current state of peacefulness. Every single block with the Gatewatch has had exactly that structure - they come in, they investigate, find that some s**t is afoul, the big baddy appears, they beat him up (except on Amonkhet).
That is entirely too predictable and leads to the same stale story. Instead, if they focus on selling the world more than the characters, it will be great. For example, first block of Tarkir with the tri0color tribes had Ugin as a disembodied voice, Sarkhan walking around and even Sorin going on a visit, but the undoubted stars of the block were the 5 tribes, while the walkers took a back seat. And the first Ixalan set had some rather interesting schtick following amnesiac Jace around, seeing another side of Vraska that was actually interesting, etc.
2/ I say they are a marketing choice, because after the Avengers, superhero team-ups are super popular, so WOTC wanted in on that. Around that we were even hearing news of a MTG movie, so the GW made a lot of sense from a marketing perspective. Additionally, the GW required retcons up the wazoo that "ironed out" the personality of the characters to make it even possible, making it seem even more of a marketing move.
3/ No, I do not mean leave the story out completely, but I mean focus less on it. Imagine a helix, with one coil being the story and the other being the card game. Only where those two meet do we actually get a card. For some sets, the helix is tighter and we get more story based cards (eg. the spring set in Ravnica should have a lot more cards depicting the events of the story), while for others it can be less tight (eg. the set in a new plane after the spring Ravnica set).
Having a designeated story spotlight light cards is exactly the opposite of what I am preaching. Unless you are enfranchized in the story, you should not be able to tell the story card from the world-building card.
December 13, 2018 2:35 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #17
1) Huh. Disagreements again, Boza! First, that not all of the blocks hadnthe same structure. In BFZ, we plunged right in and focused on the assembly and formation of the watch. In SOI, the whole first set (half of the block) was a fun murder mystery. In KLD, the plot was very standard, but in AKH we had the trials, not a particularly interesting detour, but something.
However, I will agree that Wizards' real strength lies in world building and that the walkers should always be secondary.
2) That may hold some water, but somehow I doubt it. I do not think WotC would try replicating the avengers. I think that they would understand the stark differences between the worlds they and marvel were building and think 'I'd love to, but the environments are just too different'.
3) I disagreed initially, but upon further review, I love the sort of easter egg hunt that the story spotlight sought to end. I've been looking at the incorporation of story into the cards of old, and that is perfect to me. It's subtle, it's clever, and it's MOSTLY just flavor text and art, with enough mechanics for one to think 'oh, that's clever'.
So I guess we agree on more than I thought.
Icbrgr says... #2
Nissa Revane was interesting with the elvish superiority complex prior to the retconned version of Nissa we have now.... sure even then she wasnt exactly a ground breaking character but if they kept that lore/personality there would have been more room for her to have a lot more growth and depth overall as a character with more interesting interactions.
Overall i have no counter arguments for the gatewatch characters not being overdone clichés.... which isnt exactly a bad thing given how these characters are essentially color pie type casting.....but cool story wrighting and character development always makes things nice.... like the Original Story for Innistrad and Sorin creating Avacyn to keep order over the plane and such... it was just sooooo cool.... and then somehow the eldrazi came into play meshing plot lines and.... idk... emrakul was imprisoned in the moon...it got weird.
Liliana Vess IMO has always been the most interesting character we have in the All-Star Cast having the most potential for being a stand alone with her plot line revolving around her demon pact slaying tales.
December 11, 2018 3:17 p.m.