What can transverse the planes?
Lore forum
Posted on Feb. 25, 2016, 12:15 p.m. by CuteSnail
Other than planeswalkers, what in the post mending universe can travel in-between planes? I ask mainly to see if Raven man could be something other than a planeswalker. We've seen him in both Dominaria and Ravnica. The Eldrazi, as beings of the blind eternities are obviously able to slip in and out of planes. We know Phyrexians have been able to use portals between planes, but in the post mending multiverse, we've only seen them transported by Karn Liberated, in the form of the glissning oil. We also know that the Skyship Weatherlight could transverse planes...I think.
It all boils down to is it possible for Raven man to be anything other than a planeswalkers? Also, side question, would it be possible for a planeswalker to avoid the drawbacks of the mending, in anyway?
I know very little about the Raven man...
but Raven and Ravnica...
Does that have any relevant influence on anything? O_O
February 25, 2016 1 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #4
i think the planeswalker theory is the easiest and best working theory right now.
February 25, 2016 1:51 p.m.
the.beanpole says... #5
Nobody has mentioned Marit Lage. She did/does have a method of moving between planes that wasn't Phyrexian or Eldrazi based. Raven Man could have a method similar to hers, though that would be pure speculation since she hasn't popped up post-mending, so we don't know if she can even use that method anymore.
February 25, 2016 2:44 p.m.
There's a lot of credence in the delusion theory.
Most of the info can be found in the UR story of Liliana's Origins (HERE).
- Liliana has an affinity with birds. - It would be logical that any delusion would take the form of a bird.
- The Raven Man never actually 'tells' liliana how to make the Tainted Remedy, she has the knowledge deep within her, and the Raven Man only makes suggestive comments which led her to think harder.
- When faced with 3 skin-witches, she defeated them on her own, and the Raven Man did nothing.
- Nicol Bolas, as knowledgable as he is does not appear to know the Raven Man. - He only know of him what Liliana has told him.
- Between the time her spark ignited and the time Bolas introduced her to the Demons, she had other encounters with the Raven Man, and she had not been able to kill him. (Theories about delusions are that you can never kill them as they are a part of you.)
February 25, 2016 3:58 p.m. Edited.
So Lily is basically schizo...
That could lead to a very interesting story arc.
February 25, 2016 4:06 p.m.
Demons can transverse the multiverse aswell, at least at some level. Maybe he's a delusion/ illusion/ demon. Maybe a delusion from lili's mind that will took a psysichal form somehow.
February 25, 2016 4:22 p.m.
the.beanpole,
Oh that's interesting about Marit Lage. I never knew any of her lore, just that Dark Depths is the best Thespian's Stage target EVAR.
But yeah, from an old Ask Wizards:
"The Argivian scholar Arkol thought Marit Lage was a planeswalker, but he was wrong. What's known about Marit Lage is that she is a being of immense power, able to move across the planes but not by the same means planeswalkers can. She is not native to Dominaria, and could justifiably be called a demigod. ... It's implied that she wreaked havoc on Dominaria at some point, and it's clear that she had a human following (see the flavor text of Brine Shaman, Curse of Marit Lage, Wrath of Marit Lage, and Dehydration) ..."
Between that description and the art from her Token, she sure seems Eldrazi-ish ...
February 25, 2016 4:22 p.m. Edited.
TheRedMage says... #10
Also worth mentioning: beings with godly levels of power have been known to be able to traverse the planes on special occasions. The Myojin of Night's Reach learned how to exploit the weakened state of the Reikai, the barrier between the Kamigawan spirit world and mundane world, to leave the plane altogether, and was then hunted down by Nicol Bolas, who wanted to learn how a being that did not have the spark could gain such power.
The events that transpired during the Kamigawa block are, I believe, set in a distant past: one of the protagonists of the story was Toshiro Umezawa, which would later be exiled to Dominaria and become the founder of the Umezawa clan of the Madara Empire. Tetsuo Umezawa, Toshi's descendant, would eventually slay Nicol Bolas himself while he was posing as the dragon-emperor of Madara, an event that if I recall correctly was roughly concurrent with the Mirage war, which in turn predates the events from the Weatherlight saga and the Phyrexian invasion of Dominaria. In the meantime, there has been the Mending, and a partial rewrite of history caused by Sarkhan's Tarkir time-travelling shenanigans, so there is no telling whether that sort of power can still be obtained.
Also, Urza and Teferi created the Skyship Weatherlight, a flying vessel capable of travelling between the planes. The Skyhip was part of the Legacy Weapon, and was obliterated when Gerrard Capashen detonated the weapon to destroy Yawgmoth. It was also created by planeswalkers that had access to a level of power the ones we see in the current storyline cannot really achieve, as this happened prior to the Mending, so it's unlikely something like the Weatherlight can be recreated now.
@ jojopasta: You say that demons can travel the multiverse, that sounds like news to me. Where did you find that piece of information?
February 25, 2016 4:51 p.m. Edited.
jojopasta might be connecting dots based Ob Nixilis, ignoring the fact that he is a planeswalker himself.
February 25, 2016 5:03 p.m.
And the fact that he was a planeswalker before the demon form
February 25, 2016 5:08 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #13
Ob Nixilis was kind of an outlier because he was a human planeswalker before becoming a demon.
In fact, demons and angels in the magic universe cannot hold a planeswalker spark, because they don't have a soul, they are just an emanation of black or white mana respectively.
February 25, 2016 5:13 p.m.
the.beanpole says... #14
I think wizards made a statement about her not being an Eldrazi. I'll try to find it when I get home.
jojopasta, I don't think that there has been any evidence of inter-planar demons. They often have power and knowledge that span worlds, but I don't think we have seen a demon that has visited multiple planes. Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
February 25, 2016 5:26 p.m.
the.beanpole says... #15
TheRedMage, I think you have the timelines backwards. Toshi was a distant descendant of Tetsuo. I'll find sources when I'm able.
February 25, 2016 5:30 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #16
From the mtg salvation wiki:
Tetsuo was born in Clan Umezawa as the son of clan leader Haki Umezawa and was a distant descendant of Toshiro Umezawa.
February 25, 2016 5:43 p.m.
"Tetsuo was born in Clan Umezawa as the son of clan leader Haki Umezawa and was a distant descendant of Toshiro Umezawa."
-MTGSalvation
February 25, 2016 5:44 p.m.
Heh, Sorry guys, I don't remeber where I heard about the demons, but what I heard was kinda like the.beanpole said, I mean, is like their minds can transcend the multiverse, so the Raven Man's "mind" could follow Lili, get it? Sorry again for the lack of source
February 25, 2016 6:16 p.m.
the.beanpole,
That'd be great. I can find lots of people saying "Wizards said she's not an Eldrazi!" but I can't find an actual source.
For the flavor text piece above, I meant to put in the 8th Edition Dehydration. Speaking of which, I like the parallels between the flavor text of the Ice Age Wrath of Marit Lage and Eldrazi Monument ...
February 25, 2016 7:42 p.m. Edited.
Surferdunks says... #21
always can plot hole it as venser's ambulator device if you want to continue thinking of other possibilities.
February 25, 2016 8:42 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #22
There is definitely cases of demons having information from outside of their own plane, see kothophed knowing about The Chain Veil. Maybe the Raven Man is a hallucination of Liliana's, but maybe he's something more. A demon that keeps projecting itself to her, or that caused her to permanently hallucinate it.
February 26, 2016 1:23 a.m.
the.beanpole says... #23
Wow. I guess I'm more full of crap than I realized.
You're right, TheRedMage. I could have sworn that Night mentioned something to Toshi about having an ancestor in Madara when she drops him off on Dominaria. Even that wouldn't really make sense though, since Tetsuo was always from Dominaria, and Toshi was always from Kamigawa.
clayperce, I did another search and found the same information that is on the mtgsalvation wiki, which is to say, nothing. There was an "ask wizards" article that talks about Marit Lage a little bit, but that was like 3 years before Eldrazi were mentioned in Zen block.
February 26, 2016 9:39 a.m.
Pre-mending planeswalkers could also personally transport other beings across the blind eternities by somehow using their power to shield them somehow from the chaotic nature of it.
Urza's known methods of this include: Having Xancha swallow an artifact that would let her encase herself in a bubble of black mana at will (also let her fly and shield herself from attacks, so that's cool); turning people into statues and turning them back after the trip (limited success); and his preferred method, turning people two dimensional for the duration of the trip (apparently chaos is only bad in 3D or greater).
JWiley129 says... #2
There are a few possibilities as to what the Raven Man is.
He's a planeswalker. This is the most popular and easiest answer. Liliana believes him to be a planeswalker, so this is the obvious answer.
He's a delusion. This is my personal theory. The Raven Man isn't a physical being, but instead is a delusion of Liliana's. We have no proof that anyone else has seen the Raven Man, so we don't know exactly if he exists. This would be similar to Season 6 of Dexter, where there is a character who exists completely inside a character's mind.
There are multiple Raven Men. This theory is a bit out there, but hear me out. What if every plane has a Raven Man? And these Raven Men all share a consciousness through the BE? Then it would explain how the Raven Man showed up on Dominaria and Ravnica, and how they both know of Liliana.
As far as travelling through the BE, right now only Planeswalkers can. Since the Mending the planar portals have become incredibly unreliable, like the one on the Weatherlight. So unless someone can create such a portal, then we can only have planeswalkers who can travel between the planes.
February 25, 2016 12:42 p.m.