Where Was Edgar Markov During the Innistrad Blocks?
Lore forum
Posted on Aug. 9, 2017, 8:57 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Now that there shall finally be a card of Edgar Markov, I again am wondering where he was during the two Innistrad blocks.
Given how important he is to the story of that plane, I highly doubt that he is dead, as it is very unlikely that WotC would kill someone so important off-screen. I also doubt that he was killed when Nahiri attacked Markov manor, because that definitely would have been mentioned, and I am certain that he is sufficiently powerful to fight her. However, if he is not dead, where was he when Emrakul invaded Innistrad? I am certain that he would seek to defend a plane that he considers to be his domain, but his absence from both Innistrad blocks is very conspicuous.
What does everyone else say about this? Where was Edgar Markov during the two Innistrad blocks?
DemonDragonJ says... #3
kanokarob, that would be very disappointing if that were true, since WotC already did that with the fifth legendary angel (heavily implied to be black/white) on Innistrad, so I hope that they do not do so, again, because what point is there in mentioning a character if they shall not be important later?
August 9, 2017 9:41 p.m.
Markov has a card. Nameless angel has nothing. I doubt he's dead, he probably just got stuck in a plot hole. For example, a man who pursued immortality may have simply fled and proven himself a coward in the face of mortal danger. There's more directions to go than the lame "yeah he's dead offscreen," and I don't think WotC will go for such an explanation given that they are a company and killing cool characters that people want to learn more about is an economic farce.
August 9, 2017 10:52 p.m.
Some cool or important figures have to be historic. That's storytelling. You can go back and tell their stories, but they do not -- and should not -- all need to be in the present.
August 9, 2017 11:39 p.m.
Also, getting a card doesn't make someone alive. Mirri is super dead. And while she did have cards in the past from when she was alive, she got a new card now, in the same set as Edgar, despite being dead.
Apologies for the double post.
August 9, 2017 11:41 p.m.
If I remember correctly, Sorin was one of the first vampires created by Edgar Markov, and his anger at being turned into a vampire was what activated his Spark. And more to the point, this happened exty thousand years ago where I think Sorin is technically a pre-Mending Planeswalker. It wouldn't be unreasonable for Edgar Markov to be long dead when the Innistrad blocks happen.
And as said, getting a card doesn't mean the character is alive. O-Kagachi was killed at the end of the Kamigawa novels and it's getting a card now.
August 10, 2017 12:19 a.m.
You are correct in Sorin is pre-mending planeswalker and if i remember right is the oldest walker outside of the elder dragons. It is highly likely he did something to Edgar tho unknown as to what.
August 10, 2017 3:22 a.m.
Apologies for the confusion. When I said "I don't think he's dead" I really chose my words poorly. I should have said "I don't think he'll be dead without there being a good story behind it." Edgar can totally be dead, I meant for that comment more to mean "he won't be dead like inistrad b/w angel that isn't selenia without explanation because that would be lame"
August 10, 2017 4:41 a.m.
shinobigarth says... #11
Sorin is the oldest living walker next to Bolas, Ugin and Karn. he is something like 9000.
when you think about it that way, that means Innistrad is at least that old too. makes you wonder what life was like for them that long ago. were they still living in the Victorian-era-inspired world we know Innistrad as back then? or was it more dark ages?
August 10, 2017 2:01 p.m. Edited.
shinobigarth says... #12
oops my bad, he's actually older than Karn. you'd think the whole Urza thing happened a way long time ago but apparently Sorin ignited even before that.
August 10, 2017 2:13 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #13
shinobigarth, how long before the present story did Sorin create Avacyn, and for how long was she trapped in the Helvault before being freed?
kanokarob, yes, you have a good point about Mirri and O-Kagachi, who have been given cards after their deaths, but they had major roles in the story, whereas Edgar Markov has been mentioned only briefly, so I am still hoping that he will have a major role, at some point, because it seems odd to give a card to a minor character who was mentioned only briefly.
August 10, 2017 2:15 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #14
its unknown exactly but he created her several thousands years ago. it just says he did stuff for "several centuries" after his spark igniting, which includes the whole eldrazi thing. so she and the Helvault were around for quite a while.
it says "not long ago" that Grizzles appeared, and we know Avacyn went in with him, so however long that was. probably only a couple centuries.
August 10, 2017 2:36 p.m. Edited.
RicketyEng says... #15
The SOI story in which we see Nahiri confront Sorin and get locked in the Helvault hints at Avacyn's age. At the beginning Sorin wakes from a rest/regeneration period of unknown length. When he created Avacyn (and shortly before, the Helvault) it took so much out of him that he had to sleep for a while. Nahiri's arrival woke him up. That was about 1000 before the present. Therefore he spent thousands of years before finally creating Avacyn.
August 10, 2017 5:48 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #16
Ok so we know for a fact that Nahiri was locked in the Helvault for a HELLA long time, like, eons. Then much later, Avacyn and Grizzle My Nizzle show up in there too. They party for a couple hundred years. THEN Lili breaks the vault and they are all freed.
So Avacyn is (or was) a good 2500-3000 years old.
August 11, 2017 3:06 a.m.
RicketyEng says... #17
I'm under the impression that Avacyn was only in the Helvault for a couple of months at the very most or no more than a year anyway. Wasn't she sealed in Innistrad, in there during Dark Ascension, and then released at the end of that set in time for Avacyn Restored?i would say her age was only 1000+Sorin's resting time (which could have been a couple of hundred years but no more I think) which would put her age at very most 1500.
August 11, 2017 7:54 a.m.
shinobigarth says... #18
She was in there before Innistrad started technically i think. There nothing that really states the time between each set either but its obvious a certain period of time goes by so as to allow for the monsters to build back up, i don't think they built their populations back up overnight as she kept them in check very well.
Who says Nahiri was only in there for a millennium? The reason for my estimate is you have to account for Sorin's life of 7000 to 9000 years. Given what we know he did, there are a lot of gaps where he seemingly just dicked around for large periods of time which seems contrary to his character of planning and getting things taken care of.
August 11, 2017 12:03 p.m.
Now I just like to imagine sorin as a typical slacker who just does nothing until he gets so bored he just HAS to do something. He goes and finds some great monumental task to perform to prove to himself that his life still has meaning before returning to his typical lackluster activities only to repeat the cycle.
August 11, 2017 2:56 p.m.
OK kiddies, gather 'round and let uncle Vorthos learn you a thing.
The current year in the MtG Multiverse is around 4565 A.R., probably give 1-4 years, if even that. That's 4565 Argivian Reckoning, so 4565 years after the birth of Urza (In case you needed any more evidence that Urza is cooler!Jesus).
The Eldrazi were sealed away by the Three (Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri) about 6000 years ago. That has been confirmed in the magic stories and by Wizards. So around -1435 A.R ish. In "The Lithomancer" story, which details the Three discovering the Eldrazi and their efforts to imprison them on Zendikar, Nahiri notes that Sorin was at least a thousand years old. Given his eternal youth, it's unlikely Nahiri is pulling that number from thin air; she has some kind of sorce to back up her estimate, which would of course be the passing remarks of her mentor, Sorin. This puts his birth at around -2435 A.R. We can round that closer to ~-2400. Sorin looks to have been in his early 20s when he was turned, and we know Edgar created the Curse of Vampirism a bit before he turned his grandson. Let's say then that Sorin's Spark ignited at around ~-2380 A.R., give or take.
It was only after the Eldrazi were imprisoned that, realizing in his absence the need for balance on Innistrad, he created Avacyn. We have no exact date or point of reference for this event, other than that it was pre-mending. We do however have a reference for Nahiri's imprisonment: about one thousand years ago. This is stated as part of the setting in "Stone and Blood," and so is an acknowledgement by the writer, not Nahiri's guesses. This would have been about ~3565 A.R. Thus, Avacyn would have been created between 6000 and 1000 years ago.
The Mending occured about 60 years ago, as we have now definitively learned thanks to Hour of Devasation, putting it at about ~4505 A.R. Starting after Lorwyn, the first set with story taking place after the Mending, the progression of time becomes much much slower, even slowing down as we approach the present day, to slower than the real-world release of sets or blocks. A lot of the original Zendikar and Innistrad blocks actually occur within the same 2-year period, and only a few months have passed since the Oath of the Gatewatch up to now, the Hour of Devasation. From following time backward based on the passing remarks of how many months or years passed from one story to another in such ways that are far too excruciating to source, since the data has already been collected, we can determine that Avacyn and Griselbrand were imprisoned in the Helvault in around ~4561 A.R. and released the following canonical year, ~4562 A.R.
That's a long and technical way of saying that Sorin is about 7000 years old, Avacyn is between 6000 and 1000 years old, but probably closer to 2000-3000, as shinobigarth estimated. She and Grizzles were only locked in the Helvault for a few months to a year, as RicketyEng stated.
August 11, 2017 9:49 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #21
Thanks for all the detail, kanokarob. However, I still disagree with Avacyn's age. In the same story that sets the time for Nahiri's imprisonment, Sorin wakes prematurely from his restoration. He can't tell how long he was spaced out, but the only way Avacyn's age could be more than 2000 years is if Sorin spent more than a thousand years regenerating. It even refers to his "recent exertion" of creating Avacyn. I find it hard to believe that he spent that long, but at this point it becomes a matter of opinions so it might not be possible to determine for sure.
"Sorin's consciousness had been spread out across the weeks he'd been down here. Or was it months? Years? He couldn't be certain..."
"... He noticed a dark stain that stretched out across the sanctuary floora permanent black shadow in the shape of an angel, a testament to the magnitude of his recent exertion, his creation."
August 12, 2017 9:38 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #22
kanokarob, RicketyEng, it does not make any sense to me that Avacyn was imprisoned in the Helvault for only several months, since the people of Innistrad spoke of her disappearance as if it was the most horrible thing that they could imagine, implying that she had been missing for a very long time; could they not handle life on that plane without her for only a few months?
August 12, 2017 10:24 a.m.
Well RicketyEng, you may notice that I didn't give an exact age for Avacyn, only a wide range and a probable shorter range. We can reasonably assume that Sorin didn't wait almost 5000 years to create Avacyn, because that is quite a long time to worry about the state of your plane and your family without doing anything, just as we can assume he didn't create her immediately following his involvement with the Eldrazi, because that would mean he hibernated for 5000 years, which is also unreasonable. Again, this is one of few events relevant to recent history that we can't pinpoint exactly, but we can narrow our range using deduction and reason based on what we do know of Sorin's history and personality. His statements after being woken up are also not trustworthy sources, as he is quite clearly unaware of the amount of time that has passed. Even his notion of having exerted himself recently can't be confirmed; he was awoken early from his recovery, such an exertion would of course still feel recent to him, he hasn't recovered yet.
User:DemonDragonJ, once again, I need to remind you that your personal feelings of something not making sense is irrelevant when we have data showing us that it does make sense. Your reasoning is flawed as well; Avacyn's disappearance would be the most horrible thing that ever happened to them in the minds of Innistrad's humans even more if it were so recent as a few months to a year. If she had been gone for centuries, they would not have been relying so much on her return, cowering in fear because they used to rely on Avacyn's protection, because for most of the population, Avacyn wouldn't have been around to have protected them. If she disappeared relatively recently, many of the current population would still remember her and be capable of fearing life without her as opposed to with her.
And no, Humans could not handle life on Innistrad for only a few months, because there are five other tribes of monsters and/or spirits that are trying to harm them to some capacity. That's why Sorin felt Avacyn was necessary, there simply wasn't any balance on the plane without some impartial force; Avacyn.
August 12, 2017 11:08 a.m.
RicketyEng says... #24
I don't think Sorin would have been idle during the years between imprisoning the eldrazi and creating Avacyn. In that meantime he created the Helvault and I would assume it would take a fair amount of time to harvest the ore from the moon and learn the magic required to complete the artifact. I wouldn't be surprised if he also needed some amount of time to figure out how to make Avacyn and how to work the planar protection spell he wove.
August 12, 2017 4:47 p.m.
I didn't give any indication that I thought he was idle during that time or that learning to manufacture and physically transport/create the helvault would not take time. I don't know how you think mentioning those things disproves the reasoning that puts Avacyn's creation a long while after the Eldrazi imprisonment but also a long time prior to Nahiri's attack.
August 12, 2017 5:13 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #26
Sorry, I went and responded to someone else's earlier comment.
I agree with your analysis as far as Avacyn is definitely between 1000 and 6000 years old. Beyond that I hope you agree that we can only make educated guesses (such as accounting for time to create the Helvault, etc) to get any more precise. Your guess is 2000-3000 and mine is 1000-2000 leaning closer to the lower half.
I suspect we may never get any more detailed confirmation of how long Sorin was regenerating. If ever we do, our guesses will be reevaluated at that time.
Now, as for Edgar Markov's whereabouts during all of these events. He is a historical figure which has been requested by many people to appear on a card. I think that in itself is the reason he has now been given one. I don't believe it is necessary that he still be alive.
Oh! Here's a new conspiracy theory for all of you: what if Sorin needed a sacrifice to create Avacyn and so he turned his hated grandpa into something to protect people? That might add even more gravity to the Anguished Unmaking.
August 15, 2017 11:17 a.m. Edited.
DemonDragonJ says... #27
RicketyEng, I definitely agree that Sorin needed to make a great sacrifice to create a being as powerful as Avacyn, although I dislike the idea of him sacrificing Edgar to do so.
August 15, 2017 2:03 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #28
it doesnt say he needed a sacrifice to create her, and if so, i doubt he would use his grandpa (or more specifically i doubt Edgar would LET him).
August 17, 2017 10:43 p.m.
GoldenGreenLord says... #29
Shinobigarth...Sorin was a pre-mending planeswalker at that point. There'd be nothing Edgar could do to stop him...Though this also begs the question that if pre-mending walkers could create entire planes/worlds - essentially miniature Universes. How on earth did creating Avacyn exhaust him so much that he basically went comatose for a millennium? Was Avacyn really that powerful that all that went into her was the equivalent or greater to making a plane?
kanokarob says... #2
He really probably is dead. In this case, it would not be "killing a character off screen" as he isn't a character, Sorin is. It would be worldbuilding and establishing history.
However I would concede he probably wasn't killed, as in hunted in some plot by some hero to eradicate the father of vampirism. I think its more likely he struck more deals with Gilgengar, the demon who convinced him to start experimenting with blood alchemy for immortality in the first place, until he finally had to pay his dues, so to speak.
August 9, 2017 9:18 p.m.