Why Could Sarkhan Not Simply Summon Dragons to Tarkir?
Lore forum
Posted on Sept. 13, 2015, 4:04 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
On another forum of which I was once a member, I asked why Sarkhan could not simply summon dragons from another planes to Tarkir, or bring dragon eggs to Tarkir, to repopulate the dragon race, since he was displeased about dragons having been hunted to extinction on that plane. The response that most other users gave me was that only planeswalkers can survive traveling between the planes; all other beings die, so such attempts would fail.
However, it seems that Kiora can summon sea monsters from one plane to another, as seen in her quest to bring such creatures from other planes to Zendikar to battle the Eldrazi, so, if Kiora can do it, why could not Sarkhan do it, as well? What does everyone say about that?
DemonDragonJ says... #3
shinobigarth, could you please provide slightly more detail than that?
September 13, 2015 4:24 p.m.
To the best of my knowledge Kiora is summoning these creatures to Zendikar, not leaving them there permanently, which would I guess mean they aren't technically planeswalking. I'm sure Sarkhan could summon a generic dragon to help him or whatever, but I don't think that would be a permanent thing. And really Sarkhan wanted to change the past and make things the way he thought they should be, not just start over. He wanted the Dragonlords back and Ugin to live. Plus it was really the spirit of Ugin talking to him telling him what to do so he just kind of did what he was told as usual. It's true only planeswalkers can pass though the rifts between planes, so like shinobigarth said, summoning is different than planeswalking. I guess I'm not super clear on the lore behind physically summoning something as a planeswalker, but it's sort of a loophole in the planeswalking thing that for what ever reason wasn't realistic for Sarkhan.
September 13, 2015 4:27 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #5
Given that the name of this game contains the word "magic," I am certain that any rules that exist within its story can be bent or altered in any way that the story writers see as appropriate to the situation. If summoning a creature to another plane brings them there only temporarily, I see no reason why a being of exceptional power cannot make that summoning permanent, since temporary spells can be made permanent in Dungeons & Dragons, WotC's other major fantasy game.
September 13, 2015 4:37 p.m.
Obviously they could if they wanted to but the point is they didn't. Rules that apply to other fantasy games don't apply across the board. You asked why, and thats your answer, if you don't like the answer then write hate mail to wizards.
September 13, 2015 4:47 p.m.
According to Lim-Dul, the Necromancer, summoning a creature is summoning the "essence" or the "idea" of a creature. Essentially, the mage creates a partially physical replication of their own memories, which takes either focus or the duration of the spell to work; if either are interrupted, the spell is dispelled, and eventually the "corpse" as well.
A prime example of this is in the first Theros novel, when Elspeth slays Polukranos. She summons 3 glowing soldiers to the battlefield, all of whom are dressed differently then those who live on Theros and who dissipate at the end of the battle. In other words, she summons, I believe, soldiers of Bant (I have no backing to say that they're specifically from Bant besides the fact that Bant was Elspeth's first true home) who fight for her as long as she needs them to. When she's done, she dispels the magic and the soldiers as well.
So while Sarkhan could summon dragons to Tarkir, the amount of effort and mana needed to keep 1 Thunderbreak Regent alive permanently would be approximately that of a large swath of the plane. Which would look like what it looks like when an Eldrazi sweeps through the plane. And it could potentially kill Sarkhan just to channel the spell for as long as he needs to.
Does that answer your question?
September 13, 2015 5:18 p.m.
hmm how does that work with garruk, his curse, and the beasts he summons?
September 13, 2015 6:12 p.m.
He may have also wanted Tarkir's specific breeds back rather than crude approximations with non-native dragons.
September 13, 2015 7 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #11
JA14732, that answer makes the most sense out of all the answers: Kiora is only temporarily summoning the creatures, but attempting to permanently transport a (non-planeswalker) being from one plane to another is beyond the power of even the present planeswalkers.
September 13, 2015 8:30 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #13
from Salvation:
"The modern idea of summoning involves both the pre-revisionist way and the creation of a faux entity based on the concept of that creature, which is pulled from the aether. These summoned creatures have no will of their own, and vanish when no longer needed...The summoning of unique, Legendary individuals is similar to this, but based on the concept of a specific individual and not simply off of a group. It is also described in The Eternal Ice."
its like if you were to summon your friend over to your house, only when you did so it wasn't your actual friend, but only a physical representation of your friend based on your memory of them. it would look exactly what you envision your friend looking like in your mind's eye, it would know only the knowledge that you know your friend knows (if that makes sense lol), and it would act exactly as you recall your friend acts.
so, for example if you haven't seen your friend in 5 years, the representation that you summoned would appear as you remembered him/her, and not reflecting whatever changes may have occurred in the 5 years that you don't know about.
thats how a planeswalker summons a creature, its a representation of a creature they have actually witnessed. they visit a plane and they watch some human soldiers fighting a large beast, they study both types of creatures, noticing their size, how strong they are, any unique attributes (i.e. keyword abilities) they appear to have, etc, and then summon that idea into their next battle. they are not actually teleporting the real creature itself.
September 14, 2015 2:19 a.m. Edited.
DemonDragonJ says... #14
shinobigarth and JA14732, I have always disliked that explanation, as I find it to be needlessly complicated and a feeble attempt to add greater mysticism and awe to this game, a way to make it seem more unusual and have its own unique aspects. What is so difficult to comprehend about simply summoning an actual creature physically, and then dismissing it later? How different would the game be if that is how summoning functioned?
From a flavor perspective, if a spellcatser is merely creating a construct of a creature out of aether, how can there be any physical body that goes to the graveyard, and can potentially be recovered? When the aether figment is destroyed, it merely ceases to exist, so should not the card go to the exile zone, rather than the graveyard?
September 14, 2015 6:27 p.m.
The planeswalker doesn't want to abandon friends, pets or family on a completely different world. Or the thing they are trying to summon may be dead, which would complicate fights. Plus, pulling something through the Blind Eternities would literally tear it apart at the atomic level- if they can't resist its peril.
September 14, 2015 6:35 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #16
If that is the explanation given for how players summon creatures, then why have the existing planeswalkers never (or rarely) demonstrated such an ability in the story? Such an ability is amazingly powerful, and would more likely be expected from the god-like planeswalkers of old, not the current planeswalkers, who are certainly more powerful than normal beings, but not by an extreme amount.
September 14, 2015 6:41 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #17
How would you like it if you were a happy soldier on Theros, with a family, protecting Akros or whatever, and suddenly some dickwad planeswalker teleports you to some strange place you've never been before, with dragons or some other huge creatures all around, and tells you to attack some enemy you've never heard of before? And then you end up dying in this battle and never get to see your family again? Would suck pretty huge monkey balls wouldn't it?
September 14, 2015 8:10 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #18
Yes, that would be very bad, although I still say that the idea of creating constructs from aether also raises many questions, such as if any being can do that, not merely planeswalkers, or if the constructs are actual sentient beings in their own right, akin to the various questions raised by the idea of cloning in actuality.
September 15, 2015 9:12 p.m.
Ask WOTC. All we can do is speculate, but WOTC knows the actual answers, or will come up with plausible responses on the spot. Don't know who you'd ask, though.
September 15, 2015 10:28 p.m.
shinobigarth says... #20
Maro could tell you if you ever had the chance to ask him. i don't know if you could ask him on Twitter or something.
September 15, 2015 11:11 p.m.
Maybe, but Maro's lead design, not head of everything related to MTG. I'm not sure if he'd know or care about those intricacies.
September 15, 2015 11:33 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #22
I've always assumed that the creatures summoned required the conscious and constant direction of the planeswalker to remain/act.
That's why, in a multiplayer game, a player's permanents disappear when they leave the game - if the planeswalker is no longer involved, all their magically summoned things disappear as well, rather than just staying on the battlefield.
September 16, 2015 9:36 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #23
Remember, it's the SPELL that goes to the graveyard, not the creature itself. (That's why things lose track of other things when they change zones).
September 16, 2015 9:39 a.m.
shinobigarth says... #24
Maro definitely cares as he cares about anything Magic. He has a pretty firm grasp on lore and how everything works.
But no matter who in WOTC the OP talked to, they would just say the same thing we've already told him here. That IS how creature summoning works, it's simply a fact that they are created out of aether and not teleported from their plane.
shinobigarth says... #2
Summoning =/= planeswalking.
September 13, 2015 4:17 p.m.