Optimum Number of Cavern of Souls in Tribal Aggro?
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on March 19, 2019, 11:35 a.m. by GoldenAgeBatman
How many Cavern of Souls should be played in an aggressive tribal deck?
My deck for reference: Dracu-Leeeee, Dracu-Laaaaa!
I was thinking somewhere between 1 and 2 copies of the aforementioned card.
APPLE01DOJ says... #3
What I think your deck actually needs is Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
March 19, 2019 2:56 p.m. Edited.
GoldenAgeBatman says... #4
Thanks for the feedback! I never thought of it as mid-range but it was able to handle late-game issues (e.g. holding my own against a Legacy control deck) better than a pure aggro.
How many Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet would you recommend? I own one copy that's in a Commander deck.
March 19, 2019 4:29 p.m. Edited.
PlatinumOne says... #6
i'm legitimately confused by anyone saying "zero" or "1-2". aggro vs midrange doesn't really matter. any tribal deck always wants to run 4. you'll be glad you did when you come across anyone playing counterspells. the possibility of opposing counterspells is really the only factor.
March 19, 2019 10:31 p.m.
@PlatinumOne: This deck has 14 non-creature spells maindeck and an entire sideboard of non-creatures. Playing 3 or more means the risk of "Drew all my Cavern of Souls in my opening hand, couldn't actually cast any spells, guess I mulligan down to 5."
I play 35 goblins in Goblins with 4 Cavern of Souls and still find situations where I can't do everything I want (cycle Gempalm Incinerator , pay for echo, and so on) because of the colorless mana.
You may not be playing against enough control decks to justify 4 Cavern of Souls , especially if you're playing so many non-tribal cards.
March 19, 2019 11:16 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #8
sylvannos so long as Cavern of Souls is the only land in the deck that can't produce colored mana (for noncreature spells) there will almost never be an instance where a player is unable to play their spells. just use Cavern of Souls to pay for the colorless portion of the cost.
March 20, 2019 1:44 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #9
PlatinumOne not to be rude but I think you need to play more magic. Your statement is just wrong, those instances come up far more often than you assume and believe it or not single colorless source can cost you the game.
March 20, 2019 11:10 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #10
APPLE01DOJ: my statement is not wrong. i've been playing the game for 14 years. i know exactly how often those instances come up. i've ran a full playset of Sliver Hive in my five-color sliver deck for years now, and almost never have mana problems. and surely a 5 color deck would have a higher chance of having mana problems than a 2 color deck. again, just use the Cavern of Souls to pay the colorless portion.
March 20, 2019 3:57 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #11
Is this the deck your referring to 5C Sliver Company? If so there is quite a bit of invalid argument on your part.
1st youre running a deck that essentially has 1 card ( Collected Company ) in it that Silver Hive can't supply the necessary colored mana for. 2nd your list also has other ways to produce mana beyond the mana base. Both of these kinda of nullify the statement that you're making.
Let's be realistic here. There are plenty of games that a single colorless mana will be fine but the deck in question is loaded with cards that have double black or double red demands. Not to mention a side board with more mana demands and the fact that he's only running 20 lands to begin with. Adding colorless mana to the list will probably do more harm than good for him.
BTW I've been mana screwed A LOT by simply playing a single copy of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in a Mono Black Devotion deck with every other of the 23 lands being a basic swamp.
Ask yourself this, if I was stuck on 2 lands, could my deck functionally operate with a dual land and a colorless source? If the answer is no, then you really need to ask yourself if the utility is worth losing games to mana screw.
An additional factor is, Counters in modern are not heavily played right now. U/W Control the formats premier Control deck cares very little about countering creature spells. They're just going to let you build a board and Terminus it away. Spirits have kinda put a huge dent in the counter plan across the format.
March 20, 2019 5:40 p.m. Edited.
PlatinumOne says... #12
APPLE01DOJ: there is 0 invalid arguments on my part. the number of noncreatures i have is irrelevant. i always have the colors i need. and even without my Manaweft Sliver , i still always have the colors i need. they do not nullify my statement. my sideboard regularly undergoes changes and often ends up full of noncreatures. i can run Terminate , Negate , and Deflecting Palm simultaneously without issue.
are we even looking at the same vampire deck? there is only a single noncreature in the entire deck that requires double red or double black. the Fiery Temper .
your hypothetical "ask yourself this" question is irrelevant. if you're stuck on 2 mana, you're losing due to not having enough TOTAL mana, not because of a lack of colored mana. when he gets that 3rd land, he'll be fine. the statistical chances of that 3rd land being another cavern are really low. by turn 3 (before the draw) you'll have seen 8 cards (7 opening plus 1 draw) if you're on the play. so we're left with 3 cards in 52 being a cavern before that 3rd turn draw. thats about a 1 in 17 chance it will be another cavern.
if you're being mana screwed by a single copy of nykthos, thats just bad deckbuilding or bad luck, especially if it happens "a lot". you either have too many cards costing triple black, or your permanents are being destroyed.
whether the use of counters are heavy or not doesn't really matter. better to have the cavern and not need it, than need it and not have it.
bottom line, hard numbers and math prove my point. you're confusing "possible" with "probable", and the 2 are not the same.
APPLE01DOJ says... #2
In your list I wouldn't run any. You're far more midrange than Aggro.
In a deck that is predominantly creatures, I'd say 4 is usually the right number.
March 19, 2019 2:51 p.m.