Theory Crafting a Turbo Tibalt Deck
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Jan. 8, 2021, 7:36 p.m. by Snowmen1
Ok, so new tibalt got spoiled. Looks like an overral decent/well rounded card. One thing which honestly I hope they change the rulings on is that you can apparently cascade into it. While a lot of people think you can slot this card into jund and just get random value off of Bloodbraid Elf, I'm thinking you can break this by playing like a living end deck and forgoing playing other one and two drop cards in order to be able to always cascade into it with either Violent Outburst or Demonic Dread, not only letting you be able to cast tibalts back half for three mana, but also effectively have 8 3 mana tibalts in your deck.
You can fill in the curve by playing early mana sinks at high converted mana costs by playing cycling cards, other double faced cards, tapped lands that give extra value, split cards like Cut / Ribbons, Response / Resurgence, Rise / Fall, Dead / Gone, etc. Evoke creatures, and so much more.
Not to mention you can also run Simian Spirit Guide and turbo this out as early as turn one.
This seems extremely strong to me, and honestly I hope the change the rules to fix this, but for now, I'm just trying to think of how a turbo tibalt deck might work.
It has 7 loyalty after you +2, drawing you 2 cards. Its -3 lets you steal an artifact or creature, its ult is very likely to win the game. Keep in mind after this and you opponent removes it you have 7 other ways to immediately cast another one.
I think the only question is if the restriction of not being able to play lower converted mana cost is good enough to make the deck functional.
January 9, 2021 7:30 a.m.
what are you talking about? its +2 doesn't "draw" cards, its -3 doesn't let you "steal" anything (it exiles the target). the ult does nothing to win the game. it exiles graveyards and adds some mana. the real question is how you plan to win after you drop him.
January 9, 2021 3:07 p.m.
wallisface says... #5
Keqing420 - when Snowmen1 is referring to "draw" or "steal", it's because Tibalt creates an emblem on entry that lets you cast anything he's exiled - so in that respect, you're gaining cards that you can later cast yourself. It's not quite "steal" as you still need to pay to cast the card - but the effects definitely feel close to free "draw".
I don't think this card is strong enough to warrant trying to build around, cause you'll have to have a lot of concessions in place to reliably get this cast - and drawing one is sad times. If you've gone down the road of not having many low-costing cards so that you can reliably cascade into this, then just play Living End instead
January 9, 2021 4:21 p.m.
I don't know, it might be playable, it might not. Living end requires set up like you cycling 2+ creatures, is vulnerable to graveyard hate, and plays like a control deck with combo finish depending on the matchup. I'm not sure how viable a list trying to turbo out tibalt would be, but there are plenty of ways to use your mana in the early turns that are powerful, so it is at least possible. In my opinion, the decks viability is only dependant on what cards this deck could have access to that it can cast on turns one and two, to which there are a lot.
Tldr: Casting 7 mana tibalt for 3 mana and having it as an 8 of is objectively powerful, but the card pool mayb be too small to make this deck viable.
Just to address your other point, actually drawing tibalt isnt a big deal. Its front half is pretty good and its something you can cast on turn two. Not to mention you have 3 more to cascade into.
January 10, 2021 1:36 p.m.
wallisface says... #7
The front half is defo not modern-competitive, it’s faar too weak compared to the modern meta. It’ll just be a weaker Tidehollow Sculler in 99% of games you play it, imo.
The Tibalt side is certainly strong, but if you’re wanting to guarantee the cascade hits it, then you’re making faar too many concessions for the deck as a whole to be viable (i maintain that the closest similarity is Living End, which while can be gravehated, would be able to win faster, be more consistent, and can actually do something in the first few turns of the game (cycling))
The card may see play in a deck like Jund, as you can still play your normal plan, and if you happen to get lucky with your cascade and get Tibalt out from it, all the better. However, even in this case, the deck doesn’t gave many cards it wants to ditch to make room for (at most) 2x Tibalt - and then the odds of it being useful are low (though the payoff would be huge).
So, tldr: i think its best bet of seeing play is as a 1-or-2-of in Jund, though i’m not convinced there’s room for him. He won’t be made into a deck all of his own, as the existing decks that cheat out cards (Living End, and also UR Rhino) just have much stronger payoffs and can enact their wins faster.
January 10, 2021 3:55 p.m.
In general i highly doubt decks will be built to cascade into the card.
For the same deckbuilding cost you can cascade into Crashing Footfalls & Flaxen Intruder which can end the game quickly, unlike tibalt who is best used in a more interactive shell.
On the other hand i could easily see BBE jund playing 2-3 copies for value play. Cascading into it from BBE solves the "it dies to creatures" issue, and jund is a deck that can be expected to sometimes survive games long enough to hardcast it (W6 playing into it to a significant degree).
wallisface
I have to disagree with your evaluation.
The front face of tibalt can be extremely punishing situationally.
Naturally its meta depebdant, however taking Uro with it to draw, make land drops & deny the same opportunity from the opponent who would like to ramp into field of the dead is huge.
And alternative cost creatures are not the only way to abuse the effect. I am pretty confident that doing stuff like copying eidolon of the great revel during every turn of a burn player - and not copying during your own turn - can be extremely damaging.
January 10, 2021 9:24 p.m.
wallisface says... #9
Xica yeah i did over-exaggerate my perception of this card for sure - and the more i look at it the more palatable it appears. I think it’s just going to be too dependant on what your opponent is playing to be completely worthwhile. But you are right.
January 11, 2021 3:23 a.m.
https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/mtg/deck-highlight-modern-tibalt-cascade/
I feel vindicated Lol
Keqing420 says... #2
i'd actually say it's extremely weak. the new tibalt just doesnt really do anything meaningful. it's not worth going to all that effort to cheat in a card that doesn't win the game. you either get a tiny bit of card advantage before tibalt gets attacked, or you just cheated into play...a removal spell?
so basically i'm wondering what your end game is after you go through all that effort just to cheat into play a 7 mana removal spell. what do you plan to do with the tibalt and how do you plan to win the game?
January 9, 2021 12:08 a.m.