UR Storm: Learn from the Past vs Past in Flames?

Modern Deck Help forum

Posted on July 2, 2016, 7:16 p.m. by SorcerersBone

A sneaky little uncommon was released in DTK called Learn from the Past. No one seemed to take notice of it, but I did.

Its an uncommon 4cmc instant that reshuffles your graveyard into your library, allow you to make your storm count infinite by recycling your graveyard and making any spell with any amount of player/opponent damage, targeted draw, life loss, or milling to become grapeshot-esque, that also cantrips into your next spell.

Would that be a superior replacement to Past in Flames? A mythic rare 4cmc sorcery that forces you to burn up extra mana and cards to only make your storm count a tiny bit higher, doesn't turn any other card besides Grapeshot into a kill card, and doesn't cantrip into your next spell?

Or should you run both?

rooroothepirate says... #2

Past in flames essentially makes your graveyard your hand as well. Generally speaking, if you resolve past in flames, you win. The card is what makes storm decks actually good. Without it, the deck could conceivably work, but it wouldn't be viable in a competitive sense. I personally wouldn't run learn from the past. It more or less ends up being a 4 mana draw a card. Just my two cents though.

July 2, 2016 7:29 p.m.

rooroothepirate says... #3

Obviously try it out. Strange things can work, and for all we know, it could end up working great. I just don't see it.

July 2, 2016 7:31 p.m.

MollyMab says... #4

I...what...do you even know how storm works and how useful Past is? It "autodraws" the spells unlike learn which requires you to loop again

July 2, 2016 8:07 p.m.

Servo_Token says... #5

Learn from the past is the worse card here because it does not help you continue to go off. It has zero synergy with Pyromancer Ascension as past in flames does, it only nets you one card in hand while past nets you however many you played beforehand, and you cannot get any benefit off of learn from the past if you flip it with a Thought Scour as you can with PiF. When you play past in flames with 7 cards in your graveyard, you immediately draw 7 cards - just without making your deck smaller. Then, after you use those 7 cards to get more card into your graveyard, you flash back past in flames and do it again. You cannot beat that in terms of efficiency.

As far as I am aware or concerned, there is zero benefit to running learn from the past over past in flames, it's just a terrible card.

July 2, 2016 9:57 p.m.

SorcerersBone says... #6

I could list the ways its arguably better.

• Loops your deck infinitely/infinite Storm triggers and infinite mana.

• Adds resiliency against control to your countered/discarded spells by looping them back in. (hah thoughtseize)

• Allows alternate cards as win conditions. Important against decks with arbitrary amounts of life (Soul Sisters), life total can't change (Affinity), life doesn't matter (RDW, Suicide Black), etc.

• Is about 1/50th of the price of PiF.

• Instant speed, matters if your opponent combos out or has lethal. (or both in the case of Twin, Melira Podless, and Storm)

• Counters other Storm decks by tucking their cards, losing them a precious turn or more. (and can flat out lose the game for them if you respond to casting PiF's flashback cost)

• Counters Dredge and Reanimators decks by tucking their targets.

• Ascension copies of PiF do nothing, copies of LftP do.

• Lets a Storm deck run Remand as a one-of and cast it 1,000,000 times.

• Lets you dodge graveyard hate, while you hate graveyards.

I can see a few ways its worse.

• Can't be cast with Ritual mana (rendered moot, Manamorphose)

• At most draws you 5 cards with 4 Ascensions, instead of guaranteeing you the cards you see in the graveyard (rendered moot, you can guarantee it by process of elimination by holding lands/creatures/enchantments in your hand + one LftP to recur as you filter the deck. a little unorthodox thinking, but it works.)

• Doesn't guarantee a combo or win (rendered moot, neither does PiF.)

July 2, 2016 11:05 p.m.

SamCre1993 says... #7

Point 1 - I don't think you can guarantee infinite. The mana constraints are quite difficult. Past in flames usually nets you more mana (casting rituals from the graveyard). Ex. You ritual up to 6 mana. You cast past in flames, ritual 4 times, and now you have 4 mana. You ritual up to 6 mana. You cast Learn from the past, you now have 2 mana. And no spells to cast except maybe a cantrip or two.

Point 2 - By the logic in this point, past in flames is better against discard, because it guarantees that you can play what is discarged. If you shuffle it into your deck, you can't cast it. It's in your deck, not your hand.

Point 5 - Instant speed won't matter. You can't combo off with storm at instant speed.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic. I've just played a lot of storm, the graveyard synergies of past in flames and pyromancer's ascension are essential to the strategy. They are what produce the obscene amount's of mana.

I do love the idea of hosing a graveyard and drawing a card though.

July 3, 2016 4:19 a.m. Edited.

MollyMab says... #8

It doesn't let you keep looping because that assumes magic christmas land where you will only draw gas, and not account for variance. If you keep drawing mana or end up with just rituals no draw or just don't see your win con, you are stuck. PIF at least guarantees you have something, where every ritual is +1 mana. Every draw spell is a draw spell.

So point 1 is moot.

Against control your plan is to build up your ascension, and sculpt the perfect hand. Depending on the gifts or generic versions you run around 19 draw spells so you can simply sculpt a hand that has some resilience or use blood moon. On top of that looping them back doesn't stop them countering them again, as control decks are happy to go 1 for 1 with you until they can pull ahead with Planeswalkers/draw spells.

I don't see any alternative win conditions it allows. The standard has and always will be Grapeshot as the main win con, Empty the Warrens out the sideboard or one main deck as a storm spell that lets you make a ton of goblins and win via combat. And for the suicide decks you win even more easily if you can time your grapeshot, due to lower life total.

Price doesn't matter for how good a card is.

The spell being instant speed doesn't really matter because your spells are sorcery speed so you can't do the High Tide thing of go off in response.

And for hate cards, it is 4 mana you have to hold open, meaning you will struggle to develop your board. Something like Tormod's Crypt does the same thing, as well as not letting them draw the cards again and costs 0 mana.

Drawing an extra 1 card off a 4 mana isn't really relevant. PIF wins the game on the spot generally no need for extra drawing.

You can run Remand with Ascension, and loop it much more easily (Cast spell, remand it, remand copy targetting remand, let the stack resolve and your remand is countered and returned to hand). And with this card it isn't looping it forever. It is only every time you draw it, and you may not.

The card just isn't what storm wants. The only deck that could, theoretically use it, would be Ad Naeseum after a Lightning Storm, but you tend to just win from that.

July 3, 2016 5:53 a.m.

rooroothepirate says... #9

I would suggest finding a storm deck on here with past in flames and goldfishing with it a bit. You'll likely find that past in flames essentially reas, "target storm player wins the game". I'm a budget player, so I totally get trying to fix budget replacements for expensive cards. Unfortunately, past in flames offers a unique effect that no other card in modern does and happens to be essential to making this particular deck work.

If you are trying to build a budget storm deck, I have a mono red storm list on here that costs quite a bit less than traditional UR storm.

July 3, 2016 9:13 a.m.

sylvannos says... #10

The only replacement for Past in Flames is Empty the Warrens because it dumps out enough creatures to win the game. That way, you don't have to worry about graveyard hate.

I think if you want to create infinite loops with your library and drawing cards, you're better off playing Eggs.

July 3, 2016 3:44 p.m.

SorcerersBone says... #11

SamCre1993 About point 5, there are other cards that, while not strictly better than what's already run in Storm, are at the same mana cost and dig or draw the same (or more) amount of cards as Storm's sorceries at instant speed, allowing you to combo in response.

SamCre1993 and LeaPlath By Learning your library, you effectively give any spell storm, might as well make that spell instant to combo out. My favorite example is Vision Skeins. As you loop your deck, you cast that, forcing your opponent to draw each time, bypassing niche cards that normally counters Storm like Witchbane Orb, Platinum Emperion, Phyrexian Unlife, and Angel's Grace (in the sense that they draw a card next turn and lose before casting another), and it doesn't mill so old Ulamog, Kozilek, Emrakul, and Progenitus effects don't counter it either. Its also the same cmc as Grapeshot (not that that'll matter), its gas for the combo anyway, it's completely unexpected for storm so Meddling Mage effects miss by miles, and more.

Control/discard priorities against storm are Ascension and Electromancer to prevent the combo, and LftP brings them back in.

Honestly, running a 1:1, 1:2, or 2:2 split of both Past cards hugely strengthens the power of the other, and provides resiliency against Extirpate effects as well. Might be best to run both.

July 3, 2016 7:10 p.m.

rooroothepirate says... #12

How does it let you combo off? I'm not even sure what the combo is. Not trying to be facetious, just want to understand

July 3, 2016 8:33 p.m.

MollyMab says... #13

First of all, most of the ritual and draw spells are sorcery, so you dson't have the ability to combo out like you say.

Secondly, issue is you run into what I like to call the Deck Building Game problem. As in, it requires you to be at a point where your entire deck is in your hand. Which is this cards problems.

You need to have spent turns and mana drawing your deck, and you cannot generate enough mana to keep going to get to the point where you are looping those cards.

The question then is always, why not Gaea's Blessing which is half as much and lets you loop only the cards you need to win.

It is fine to have pet cards, but unless you are already so far ahead you can draw and play your entire deck, no matter the sequence of lands/spells, it isn't worth it.

July 3, 2016 8:36 p.m.

Servo_Token says... #14

If the OP is still stubborn about this, I would just like to suggest that they make a storm deck with LftP in it instead of PiF, and play 50 games with it, just to see that maybe 2 out of 50 times they will "go infinite", and that the card disadvantage provided by playing the suboptimal card is enough to just be better off not playing PiF or LftP and just playing more cantrips. Past in flames is used because it has put up results. Until LftP puts up any sort of result at all, even wins 1 match due to its own power (not banking on the power of the rest of the deck - you need to resolve a LftP and have it be useful), PiF will be the undeniable, uncontested victor in this little challenge.

July 3, 2016 9:46 p.m.

SorcerersBone says... #15

Here you go rooroothepirate Show

1. Prioritize the spells you cast. GE or PA, Rituals, Manamorphose, (your choice instant damage/lifeloss/mill/playerdraw spell, eg Lightning Bolt, Touch of Moonglove, Archive Trap, Vision Skeins, literally anything that can cause a player to lose if you cast it enough), Learn from the Past, any other instant, then finally any other sorcery.

1. Stack your Ascensions and Electromancers. You already do this in storm. If any copies get put in your graveyard, no big, you can bring them back with Learn.

2. The spells that were at a lower priority magically get sifted out of the library and stay in your hand, while you a) keep gaining mana, and b) recast your choice of win condition, at instant speed.

At the end of it, your deck consists of 3 sets of cards. Rituals, Manamorphoses, and your chosen instant. Learn from the Past recurs them infinitely. Combo accordingly.

Past in Flames "problem" in my admittedly flawed eyes is that it only lets you cast a single card up to 2 times, and while that works for legitimate cards with Storm, the deck only needed a little push to go infinite, discarding the need for actual Storm. The John in me cried out in joy when I saw it had a similar effect in a storm decks' colors, the Spike in me appreciated that it was an instant cantrip that hosed graveyards and resets other storms chance to end games.

LeaPlath Show

Because Desperate Ritual + Pyretic Ritual are the only rituals in most storm decks, and both are instant. I hear Ancestral Visions is legal again, also instant. Telling Time and Anticipate, while 1 mana more than its sorcery counterpart, are instants that offer deeper card selection. Obviously Gitaxian Probe and Serum Visions are staples, can't improve them, and that's ok. And because Gaea's blessing, while it is 2 mana, can't hose other graveyard strategies as effectively. If you really wanted, you could run Horobi's Whisper as a 1of and exile things you don't want to shuffle back in by splicing into Desperate Ritual. Waste of a slot sure but it helps close the loop tight and fast.

DevoidMage Show

Im spitballing right now, I know it seems like I'm being unfuriatingly adamant, but I want to hear how flawed my theory of its effectiveness is so I'm not backing down. I do plan on testing it out. Goldfishing consistently infinites on turn 3 and occasionally turn 2 with budget replacements like Ashes of the Fallen. The card seems to fit the deck as a replacement, a mirrormatch hoser, a maindeckable backup to get around a Surgical Extraction or Meddling Mage effects, and/or an infinite enabler. The only downside I see is that at worst it's a 4mana draw1 spell, but that's not why you use it in Storm and it's actually difficult to play LftP and not infcombo out, even with a single mainboard and zero PiF thanks to Ascension.

I'm just a Johnny living in a Spike's world, have mercy on my fragile soul Q~Q

July 3, 2016 11:49 p.m.

SorcerersBone says... #16

I guess none of you want to hear that a Learn From the Past infinite deck is also feasible in standard thanks to Cryptolith Rite + Zephyr Scribe ...

July 3, 2016 11:54 p.m.