A Case for Jace
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 23, 2015, 11:54 a.m. by CanadianShinobi
Well, with people talking about cards that should, or could be, unbanned in Modern, I figured I'd jump in with something that I have been considering a lot lately.
Unban Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Now, before you grab your pitchforks and torches (I'm sure they're lovely) I am going to lay out my reasoning.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor has never seen Modern play. Therefore, we do not know what impact he would have on the format. Many point to Legacy as an example of way JtMS should not see Modern play. That argument is flawed for a few reasons. Firstly, JtMS, as far as a quick search of some top Legacy decks goes, does not see a wide swathe of play. Secondly, Legacy is a vastly different format from Modern and there are better ways to protect Jace's fragile loyalty count. Thirdly, Force of Will. Any direct means of dealing with Jace himself can be prevented even without tapping mana, Modern possesses no such tool. So, currently Jace is banned under the pretense of "he could do something", but without knowing what, considering the vast differences between the format he sees play in and the format he could see play in, we are ignorant.
The current shape of Modern. I won't start lamenting about the lack of proper control decks in Modern, but I assure you they're virtually non-existent. As several users have pointed out, playing threats in Modern will always be better than waiting to react. Therefore, Control will always be at a disadvantage because Wizards will not present Control with the necessary tools due to fear of turning Modern into "Legacy-Lite". Furthermore, the means of dealing with Planeswalkers has increased dramatically, not only through cards like Hero's Downfall, but the sheer value creatures give. Which brings me to point number three.
The future of Modern. Modern, as we all know, relies on Standard. As many have observed these past few years, Wizards has been taking steps to drastically change Standard. For example, there will be an increasing lack of 1cmc mana dorks as the years march on. But creatures are always becoming more efficient and non-creature spells are too (but only to certain extents, ie dealing with PW). However, because of this, Wizards is forcing Modern into a more creature dependent format. I personally disagree with this as I feel it simplifies the game, but WotC isn't likely to print me something nice for the foreseeable future considering the Treasure Cruise fiasco last year. The point here is that as Standard changes, so will Modern and both formats will move towards being heavily interactive and creature based, which means Jace's 3 loyalty becomes a weakness as time goes on.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a boogeyman because of our ignorance. Finishing off by going back to something at the end of my first point; players are ignorant of Jace's capabilities within Modern. We only speculate. And these speculations are based upon the circumstances which he was banned and Legacy. Legacy, I have shown, is a flawed argument. But, so are the circumstances he was banned, because Jace was preemptively banned due to his performance in Standard with Stone Forge Mystic (and I believe in Extended, but I am most likely wrong here). Therefore, we perceive Jace to be a greater threat to Modern than he is. Yes, a Brainstorm every turn is powerful, but that's a 4 mana investment in a format where 4 mana needs to go a very long way seeing as decks like Twin will kill you on turn for. And unless Jace survives you're not getting to use him more than once. Play him later and the Control deck has probably already won. I will not say JtMS isn't powerful. Indeed he is, but as I said, times have changed and perhaps Jace is no longer what we hold him up to be.
However, I leave that to the T/O community to discuss. Have a made a convincing case, or have I just shown myself to be utterly ignorant and foolhardy? But, I seriously ask: Should Jace, the Mind Sculptor be removed from the ban list?
CanadianShinobi says... #4
JWiley129 "However, Jace is not coming off the banned list for a simple reason, fetchlands. If you want Jace, you can't have fetchlands."
Can you please elaborate?
And how long ago was the article by Channel Fireball? within the past few months? Years? Could you provide a link?
And all of this is theoretical speculation. We have no solid evidence to support these fears. I'm a strong advocate of having tangible evidence within my grasp so that I can make a proper assessment.
September 23, 2015 12:11 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #5
Alright, so let me develop with an anecdote. Remember when Bitterblossom came off the banning list? The price quadrupled overnight because everyone expected Fae to become a Tier 1 deck. But it never did because blossom simply wasn't what it was earlier. And blossom remains a powerful card, but it's far from meta-warping, like what everyone was expecting.
Now I know that Jace is a different story. But before we make a final decision, I would like to see him a bit in action, juuuust for a few months. And deep down, I suspect that the Waller Breaker is still a bit too good for Modern, but without solid proof, we will never know.
September 23, 2015 12:40 p.m. Edited.
So here is the conclusion to the Modern banned series, which was a year ago. So this does not adjust for the Treasure Cruise meta nor the absence of Birthing Pod. However Caleb comes to the same conclusion, that Jace isn't getting unbanned.
Also, the power of Brainstorm and fetches (or shuffle effects in general) is the ability to put the two worst cards back in your deck to shuffle them away. This is especially powerful as you can hide cards from late Thoughtseizes or the aforementioned shuffle away. True, it's not an instant speed Brainstorm, but we can all agree that Brainstorm is too powerful for Modern.
September 23, 2015 12:51 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #7
TheAlexGnan Yes, he wins the game if he ultimates, but so does LotV or Elspeth, Knight-Errant. So let's consider that a moot point.
His -1 is Unsummon. Fine, a bit of tempo, but most decks in Modern would find that hardly relevant, especially the midrange decks, and affinity and burn have probably killed you or are about to.
His brainstorm is powerful, I won't deny that, again, if you pay four mana for one brainstorm, chances are that's a poor investment. And if you play him late enough so that you can protect him, chances are you've already won. That's the nature of control.
His mana cost is perfectly relevant, especially in Modern because paying 4 mana on turn 4 for a potential win is precisely what the format does. He falls in line with Wizard's own mindset on what Modern should be, except for the fact that we have no idea if his impact would utterly warp the format.
Also, with regard to your other post. Jund is not a control deck. Twin is not a control deck, everything else you mentioned is at the fringe.
I suppose the only thing to do would be to construct Modern decks, but have someone else slot in JtMS within variations of control decks to see the results.
September 23, 2015 12:56 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #8
You could always try testing on untap. I feel that you would find him to be as strong as advertised, but I have not done testing. I did play him when he was in standard, and I run him in EDH. His power level in those formats is/was off the charts. Maybe not broken, but he is very powerful, and I feel too powerful.
Price wise, we would see a $400+ card in modern. He would be shoved in every place that he could. I think he would push Twin, Delver, BUG to the top of the tier list, and push out anything that does not run blue. Removal options are scarce, and under played in the format. I feel that modern would just revolve around Jace if he were unbanned right now.
It is not just about the brainstorm. He does everything. Maybe modern could be ready for him in the future, but I don't feel the format is equipped to handle Big Papa Jace just yet.
September 23, 2015 12:57 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #9
JWiley129 My one contingent is that, Modern is often dictated by speed. And is it not at least worth testing? Do we simply accept ignorance and fearful speculation about what is possible?
Would it not be far more sensible to test and prove something than to base it on events that are several years old at this point?
September 23, 2015 12:59 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #10
Make games called "modern Jace legal" I am sure people would love to test that. He is a very popular card. It could be a fun sub format.
September 23, 2015 1 p.m.
(1): Neither has Force of Will. Or Brainstorm. Does that mean people can't know what the format would be like with those cards? Of course not. Perhaps not down to perfection, but accurate enough to know that they won't do good things to Modern.
(1.5): As far as your points on why Legacy isn't a good measure of how broken Jace is: Jace doesn't see that much play because he costs 4 mana. Legacy is a much quicker format, with turn 1 kills being more than just possible. There are decks that say "Unless you have FoW, you lose". Modern doesn't have that. Your second and last points are both double edged swords, because he can both be protected for 0 mana and countered for 0 mana. The fact so many more decks in legacy run counter magic makes him easier to deal with than in Modern, where far fewer decks have counters.
(2):Grixis Control exists. Scapeshift is Combo/Control, it top 8'd GP Oklahoma. Twin is also Combo/Control. Heck, Lantern Control won the GP, it's a control deck. The flavours of control vary, but it's still well represented in the current Modern Meta.
(3): There may become a time at which Jace's 3 loyalty is enough to make him safe for Modern. But not right now. As far as his answers, the only 2 ones that are played (to the best of my knowledge) are Lightning Bolt and Maelstrom Pulse (which is played in one archetype). He's not nearly as easy to answer as he needs to be yet.
Jace being unbanned would kill any non-blue fair decks, even easier than Treasure Cruise. The entire BG/X archetype would die, along with any of the more fringey-midrange decks that wouldn't run him. I can only see Jace doing bad things to Modern.
September 23, 2015 1:04 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #13
I've never liked, nor appreciated the term "fair decks" it often implies that Blue (or control in general) is somehow "unfair" since most of the "fair decks" are creature based.
September 23, 2015 1:10 p.m.
Bolt kills Jace if he Brainstorms when he comes in.
The fact you dislike the term doesn't do anything to my points. I used the term because I assumed it would be understood. I meant anything that's not trying to kill by turn 4, that aims to prolong games. I would include control in that bracket, with non-blue based control decks being included in the list of decks that would disappear (Though as far as I know none are Tier 1 or even tier 2 to my knowledge).
September 23, 2015 1:21 p.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #15
Most of the Legacy games I've played against Jace, it only takes one turn for the Jace player to get the advantage on the field or in the hand (non-blue decks don't draw many cards, and Modern currently isn't saturated with blue) and when Jace drops your opponent is locked out of the game. I liked the earlier comparison to Latern control, because Jace is pretty much that entire deck in his one ability Most of the Legacy games I've played against Jace, it only takes one turn for the Jace player to get the advantage on the field or in the hand (non-blue decks don't draw many cards, and Modern currently isn't saturated with blue) and when Jace drops your opponent is locked out of the game. I liked the earlier comparison to Latern control, because Jace is pretty much that entire deck in his one ability, and that's the one that ADDS loyalty. Decks without natural card advantage (read: most non-blue decks) in modern don't have the tools to get out from under his 'fateseal lock' preboard. Tempo decks in Modern would be particularly overpowered since their gameplan would be rock solid with a top-end threat in JtMS.
September 23, 2015 1:34 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #16
The other issue that we are not taking into account in the reason why sensei's divining top was banned, time consumption. Someone brainstorming every turn is not just game-breaking, its also time consuming, maybe even more time consuming than top.
September 23, 2015 1:37 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #17
Just want to point out that Jund could be considered control - via attrition.
It's not your traditional "island, go" control, but it's still "control"
September 23, 2015 1:41 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #18
I still find it crazy that CawBlade was allowed to get out of development as strong as it was. Built around 3 cards that are banned in Modern and supported by ridiculous cards like Batterskull, Sword of Feast and Famine and Squadron Hawk it was bad.
Modern doesn't have those tools, but it does have other tools. A card advantage engine that can also protect itself would be disgusting. Jace can't come back as much as I'd like to use him.
September 23, 2015 2:04 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #19
Would anyone here be willing to test these claims? Untap would be an acceptable platform, run any current Tier 1 deck, or a deck you feel would defeat a control deck with Jace in it, and I shall construct some variations of control decks and slot in 2-3 JtMS.
Everyone says: Jace is OP, but we do not know. I firmly believe Legacy is far too different to make an acceptable comparison to Modern. The situations presented thus far are best case scenarios. So, the only means of debunking or confirming my arguments is through a series of games.
September 23, 2015 2:11 p.m.
We could certainly test the claim that "Jace is OP in Modern", but I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion. Also there is no way we can play enough games to ensure that our conclusion is definitive.
Now Legacy is different to Modern, because Brainstorm becomes better the better your cards become. That's why Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage alongside Ponder. However the ability to Shuffle + Brainstorm is just too much.
September 23, 2015 2:24 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #21
I don't believe that Jace is too powerful, but I am concerned that his price would go through the roof.
To play devil's advocate, is hasn't been proven that the brainstorm effect is too powerful for Modern.
September 23, 2015 2:24 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #22
One thing is I don't think they go around willy nilly banning stuff. I am sure many people have done that sort of testing to see if he would be welcome back.
I would like to watch a couple of those matches though. If I see ya on there, I will spectate.
September 23, 2015 2:26 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #23
I don't think Jace will be too OP. I would love to see him unbanned and see what happens.
I mean, I hardly ever see any control at all, and when I do, it's Twin combo/control, which probably won't play Jace. Control needs to make a bit of a comeback.
Not to mention the four mana cost of Jace. 4 mana for one Brainstorm? Seems pricey. He's also fairly easy to remove (Siege Rhino or Goyf, anyone?).
Like TheAnnihilator said, I'd be more concerned about his price than his impact on Modern.
September 23, 2015 2:31 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #24
Jace's +2 = Lantern of Insight plus Codex Shredder - a deck based on those just won a major competition. It also means he might as well just start with 5 loyalty with no downside (Lili's +1 gets her controller as well).
His 0 = Brainstorm, which is illegal in Modern, and at least on par with (but probably better than) both Ponder and Preordain, which remain banned. Unbanning one of those cards might not be nuts, but I think you get the point.
His -1 makes him very hard to kill, Goyf or no Goyf.
His ultimate wins the game.
Surely we can concede that in Modern, if you can get him on the board, you will win the vast majority of those games. So I think the real question is - can you get him on the board in Modern?
I think the answer is yes. There aren't that many counters out there. He dodges IoK and Decay. There's not that many decks that are going to kill by turn 4 vs. an opponent with 2 counterspells in hand, which is what you would want in your Jace build.
The thing that keeps blue, draw-go control in check in Modern (unlike Legacy) is that control can easily run out of counter fuel before they figure out how to actually win, which is why they need Snapcaster Mage, Serum Visions, Sphinx's Revelation, etc.. With Jace, no fuel is needed. Granted, Modern doesn't have the same quality of counters that Legacy has - but I think they're sufficient to do the job of enabling Jace - and that's game.
I'm all for testing, but my prediction is that he's just way too good. I quit Legacy because it's really just a big blue disaster.
I wouldn't mind seeing a couple decent Blue cards unbanned or printed, though. I think you could bring Preordain back by itself, and maybe print up an alternate Remand with a conditional draw or something, and make blue better without wreaking havoc.
September 23, 2015 9:03 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #25
Okay I wasn't gonna weigh in here because I'm not a great magic player but y'all keep referring to his +0 as Brainstorm. IT ISN'T BRAINSTORM.
Brainstorm = Spend one card, gain three, lose two, net zero.
Brainstorm is amazing. But it nets zero card advantage.
Jace's +0 = spend zero card, gain three, lose two, net one.
Jace's +0 is not only as good as Brainstorm, but it's better. It nets card advantage.
Jace's +0 is better than brainstorm. By a lot.
September 23, 2015 10:57 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #26
Serendipitous_Hummingbird only if Jace survives more than one turn. His initial investment is 4 mana for a sorcery speed Brainstorm if you choose to activate it then and there.
September 23, 2015 11:03 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #27
CanadianShinobi that's absolutely true. As I said, I'm not good enough at magic and I don't know modern well to make an informed opinion on whether or not Jace should be unbanned.
All I'm saying is that when we are examing Jace's +0 we should be careful about calling it brainstorm when it nets card advantage.
But you are right. I completely overlooked the fact that it is sorcery speed. While I still think it is significantly better than Brainstorm (being reusable and netting card advantage) I can't say that it is strictly so.
September 23, 2015 11:12 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #28
Serendipitous_Hummingbird - Gooooood point. CanadianShinobi - I think a major part of everyone's stay-banned stance is precisely that he would be damn hard to remove. He can essentially land as a 5 loyalty. He can bounce creatures. He can manipulate either deck, dumping the opponent's topdeck, or finding answers in yours. I'm not saying he's impossible to remove, but he'd be one of the hardest things out there to remove, while being a good deal more powerful than Liliana of the Veil or something like Keranos, God of Storms.
September 23, 2015 11:19 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #29
If you've never seen Jace in action in standard, then you'll not understand why he should stay banned. It's not that he's unbeatable, because he definitely is. He's going to stay banned because his mere presence increases the format's power level, and that's not what Wizards wants to do. We have no Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast to deal with him efficiently.
September 23, 2015 11:29 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #30
formayor While I understand this, I also think there is an unreasonable amount of fear considering JtMS. I too used to advocate that he stay banned, but the more I considered it, the more I questioned the decision.
Without reasonable evidence in Modern how can we condone such a decision? Ignorance cannot be the basis for it. JtMS has been built up as a monolith that no one dares to challenge. Because of his status and because of Wizards overly cautious approach to Modern we may never have that evidence.
However, just because there is the potential to do something, does not make it true. For a very long time many people thought Golgari Grave-Troll had the potential to make dredge a deck and when it was unbanned nothing remotely interesting happened. If we are unwilling to challenge the limits of Modern, to challenge the limits of the game, where is the adventure and excitement? Modern is about pushing frontiers and discovering a myriad of interactions. If JtMS is too powerful, then so be it. Keep him on the ban list, but do not do so without solid evidence first.
September 23, 2015 11:32 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #31
JexInfinite But these are different scenarios, Standard then is not what Modern is now. The comparison can't reasonably hold up.
September 23, 2015 11:33 p.m.
I find myself on the fence about JtMS, but would feel a lil better about it if Vindicate got a reprint. Actually, i dont even care about jace, just give me Vindicate.
September 23, 2015 11:42 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #33
Modern is a more powerful format than standard, and introducing such a powerful card (you cannot dispute his power) means that so many decks (since there's a heap of blue) could use him. This is a format where Deathrite Shaman was banned due to the consistency he produced for BGx decks to make them oppressive, and Jace would increase the consistency of a heap of decks, rather than just 1. For decks which can't interact with Jace, he will literally just win the game. He's not a fair card in this format.
September 23, 2015 11:46 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #34
I say what we need is a card that reads:
Modern Counterspell 
Instant
Counter target spell. Exile Modern Counterspell.
This would fit ONLY in UW control (NOT TWIN), can't be snapped back, and still provides control decks with the "no" they need.
I could also be horribly wrong and what control decks need is solid draw power.
September 24, 2015 12:02 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #35
CanadianShinobi - I agree about testing. The thing is - WotC does it, and makes calls based on that testing. I'm not saying their tests are the end-all, be-all (the whole reason cards get banned is that they make mistakes), but I am saying the ban list isn't baseless. Now, I would love it if they were more transparent about a lot of things like banning reasoning and testing- I would love if WotC did a lot of things differently - but I don't think they keep Jace banned for no reason. And I'm all for experimentation, but I do think even if we don't test something thoroughly, we can make reasonable assumptions based on what we know. Like if WotC wanted to print:
Stupid Bolt 
Instant
Stupid Bolt deals 5 damage to target creature or player.
We wouldn't really need to test that to know it would be OP in Modern. I'm all for unbannings, but I think WotC is probably getting this one right.
September 24, 2015 12:48 a.m.
I had a good laugh reading this thread. I'm not even sure why this is a subject. I'm not going to bother breaking down the card, and nobody else should continue trying. The simple matter of fact is that JtMS is too powerful for modern. Every single deck (and I mean EVERY fucking deck) would shove 4 mind sculptors into their deck, blue or not. You can't compete with Jace in a non-blue way, you just god damn can't. Every combo deck, every control deck, every tempo deck, every attrrition deck is now pushed over the top with the power of a playset of Mind Sculptors.
To put it shortly, Mind Sculptor is banned and is going to REMAIN BANNED for the simple fact that it completely erases fair decks from the format.
Whether you like the term "Fair" and it's meaning or not, it's what creature based decks are fucking called. If that offends you, you need to rethink your priorities. You really do.
Another comment I have about your shitty responses is the lazy, half assed answer of "I'd love it if someone were to test modern with Jace unbanned". That's a ridiculous fucking request. YOU brought this shit up, YOU do the work and math if you want an answer. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that you're going to come to the conclusion that everyone on this thread has been displaying in giant neon billboards since you asked this question.
tl;dr: Jace the Mtn. Dew sculptor is staying banned; You're a willfully ignorant prick.
September 24, 2015 1:31 a.m.
This is somewhat tangential to the conversation at hand, but I feel like what Modern really needs is more answers. Having a playable hard counter would do wonders for control in the format. Or what about an instant speed Dreadbore or Maelstrom Pulse? Wouldn't those cards make Jace fair?
I find WoTC's recent trend of making more powerful creatures and less powerful instants/sorceries to be pretty alarming. Green will always be creature based, blue will always be instant/sorcery based. Blue draws cards and counters stuff. Its one of the basic building blocks of MTG, and what makes the game balanced. As WoTC prints more and more powerful creatures (especially in green and black), they're neglecting other colors. That's why decks like Junk and Jund have been so strong, and will only continue to get stronger. I honestly worry about the health of the game if this continues. I know personally that I have no interest in playing a game of MTG where two green stompy decks just mash each other with undercosted creatures. And I'm afraid that's where we are headed.
Look at Siege Rhino. Its a trampling Tarmogoyf stapled to a Lightning Helix that doesn't even need the graveyard. And the best removal we get is Hero's Downfall or Murderous Cut? Seriously? I think if WoTC started printing stronger removal and stronger counter spells, the format would be more balanced, and something like JTMS could actually be fair. Unfortunately for us control players, it doesn't look like Wizards has any interest in doing that.
September 24, 2015 2:12 a.m.
Also, Davik100: there's no need to be a complete ass. If you don't like the conversation, don't comment. But there's no need for that kind of hostility.
September 24, 2015 2:14 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #39
Davik100 Your hostility is uncalled for. And how am I being lazy? I proposed that I would assemble a deck with JtMS in it for the purposes of testing the card on untap, since we truly don't have any other means of confirming his power in Modern.
Also, do not insult my intelligence. I am not a, "willfully ignorant prick", as you so kindly put it. Otherwise I would not have spent a great deal of time and effort constructing my arguments. And I have not also considered JtMS to be worthy of unbanning, but as kmcree pointed out Wizards has engaged in a somewhat alarming of late. They are so fearful of making non-creature spells too powerful that they have decided to go in the opposite direction, which is frankly absurd. The only means then of combating such a trend is to gain access to more powerful non-creature spells, and unfortunately those are locked behind a ban list which, at times and as history has shown, is so poorly managed you wonder how certain cards managed to be banned in the first place.
September 24, 2015 8:25 a.m.
MindAblaze says... #40
I feel like that was a salty comment from someone who is afraid that they'll get priced out of the format if it does become run Jace or lose like it was when JTMS was in standard.
That being said, it's an interesting thought experiment to open up discussion about. You'd have to not only test the existing archetypes but also test the plethora of decks he could fit into. You never know, some Ux decks could crop up just from the power he adds. All you have to do is not die before he lands, protect him for a turn, and then proceed to take over.
I still think he's too strong. I'm not convinced by the "dies to removal" or "the format is too fast" arguments. Yeah, there are lots of established decks that don't need him. What rogue decks would benefit from having him though? What tier 1.5-2 decks would become tier 1? I do feel that this could be a gut, afraid of what could happen, kind of feeling though.
September 24, 2015 12:33 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #41
At least we can all agree that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is not the LEAST likely card to be unbanned. Hell, he doesn't even make it into the top 15 least likely to be unbanned.
September 24, 2015 12:39 p.m.
At least as far as Creatures vs Spells, Siege Rhino was printed at the same time as Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. Khans was the exception rather than the rule, and BFZ has by and large not got a huge amount for Modern, so I wouldn't really be worried about the powering down of spells.
September 24, 2015 12:47 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #43
awphutt this is true, but Wizards has stated previously that they are less focused on spells and more focused on creatures. Also, because they fail to test for Modern and only focus on Standard and Limited it will damage Modern in the long run. One could argue that it has already damaged Modern to some extent.
September 24, 2015 4:44 p.m.
Previously being before KTK I assume, which kind of shows the phrase is meaningless. In any case, the fact they only focus on standard and limited is the key here. Stuff like Polukranos, World Eater, Deathmist Raptor, Den Protector are all great standard creatures, but utterly unplayable in Modern. Creature-focused standard doesn't mean a whole lot to Modern, where a single decent spell being printed can completely change the format. Even if the spell is only decent in Standard, a la Treasure Cruise.
September 24, 2015 5:36 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #45
Well creatures have to be aggressively costed and/or pass the Lightning Bolt test to really have a chance to see play in Modern. These Delve creatures seem to be the last chance they have for awhile to make a splashy creature. They're going to have a hard time making the format be fluid if they don't print spells that at least challenge the acceptable modern power level.
September 24, 2015 5:41 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #46
MindAblaze and awphutt and here in lies the problem. Their sole focus on Standard and Limited is a severe detriment to Modern. I realize the Modern meta game is currently healthy and diverse, but it also feels very familiar. Affinity, B/G/X, Twin, Burn, Tron and Amulet bloom. These decks seem to be the format staple decks. Perhaps I've overlooked something recently, but there's a decided lack in innovation in Modern. Modern needs to be shaken and in a big way. The way Cruise and Dig shook it. I still advocate that Dig is not worthy of being banned. And what better way to shake things up than unbanning the boogeyman? Oh, it isn't likely, bu why should fear and ignorance hold such sway?
September 24, 2015 6:22 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #47
I really don't think ignorance is the issue.
I am always for less bans, but this one I find it hard to get behind.
The way you are talking about it makes it sound like Jace's situation is similar to Wild Nacatl, and Bitterblossom.
I agree with you about Dig.
Cruise was not a health, and diversity inducing card. Shake up sure.
Just curious though, do you think Skullclamp has a place in modern?
September 24, 2015 10:23 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #48
look if anything should come off the ban list it is sword of the meek.
September 24, 2015 11:03 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #49
If you've ever played with or against Skullclamp you'll know that it outright takes over games. That one should stay banned.
I'd love for Sword of the Meek to come off the list. I don't think the combo with Thopter Foundry is unstoppable (although very strong,) and you wouldn't have to prepare any more than running the same artifact hate you'd already have planning to play against affinity.
September 24, 2015 11:21 p.m.
Does the Modern metagame need shaking up? Unbanning for the sake of unbanning is fine, but considering how diverse the current meta is (Including the fact that the number of tier 2+ decks capable of doing well is huge), the format doesn't really need shaking up.
JWiley129 says... #2
This argument is irrelevant because WotC has said time and time again that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is never coming off the Modern banned list. Plus one of the CFB writers did a series on the cards banned in Modern to see if they are "safe" to come off the banned list, and he kept Jace on the banned list.
However, Jace is not coming off the banned list for a simple reason, fetchlands. If you want Jace, you can't have fetchlands. The power of Brainstorm plus Fetches is way too good for Modern, and would push Blue control over the top.
September 23, 2015 12:02 p.m.