A Counter in Modern
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 26, 2013, 12:11 a.m. by Dorotheus
I'm looking for a counter in modern that only costs U and could hit 3 things: Deathrite Shaman
, Pithing Needle
, and Spell Piece.
I'm aware of Mana Leak
and Pact of Negation
, but if I'm missing some other counter that only costs U, I just need to be sure I'm aware of it.
Epochalyptik says... #3
The Q&A is for rules questions. Moved to Modern.
September 26, 2013 12:18 a.m.
hunter9000 says... #5
It looks like there are 3 that can hit everything you want, but none of them are legal in modern: Abjure , Force Spike and Mental Misstep .
September 26, 2013 12:22 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #6
I guess you could Spell Pierce it back or Swan Song it.
September 26, 2013 7:16 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #7
But it should be noted they don't target creatures.
September 26, 2013 7:17 a.m.
Nor does Pithing Needle care about Swan Song .
The selection of counters in Modern is pretty substandard, which explains why the only good control deck (UWR) does control mostly through removal spells. Wizards obviously doesn't want Mental Misstep in the format because of the horrible things it did to Legacy before it got banned there, and aside from that, the only universal, cheap, hard counters came in sets that are too old to be Modern-legal.
So the answer to your question is that you can find cheap, hard answers for specific problems, but not one that's going to cover everything you want.
September 26, 2013 11:25 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #10
Depending on the deck, it could be Remand or gtfo.
Or just gtfo if you don't have $60 or so for a playset.
September 26, 2013 4:11 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #11
I see Remand for about $10 usually. Remand or gtfo is basically how my modern deck looks at things (I do run 2 Cryptic Command as well though).
September 26, 2013 4:57 p.m.
TrollNtrample says... #12
Goblin Electromancer has been my solution to this problem. I had the same question a while back when I decided to dabble in modern, and this was the best I could come up with. Honestly, it's pretty clutch. Especially when you have 2 + on the field. It gets really dirty if you're running Guttersnipe too. Thought that's more standard than modern. But hey, standard cards can supplement a modern deck fairly well.
September 29, 2013 3:58 a.m.
TrollNtrample says... #13
I guess you could try Stymied Hopes . I mean, if you're opponent's tapped out, it does its part.
September 29, 2013 4:03 a.m.
@TrollNtrample: In Modern, I think it's preferable to run Remand or Mana Leak over Stymied Hopes .
September 29, 2013 5 a.m.
TrollNtrample says... #15
@Dallie
Possibly, but this is all speculation. These are just more options pending on how many counters you'd prefer. Remember, there's always a situation in any game for every and any magic card. Although some may seem better than others, there's always an instance where one has the capacity to be useful. I can easily find situations where Stymied Hopes
would be more beneficial than Remand
. If you're opponent is tapped on mana, then play Hopes instead of Remand, and send that card to the graveyard instead of back to their hand.
Let's say your opponent plays Sphinx's Revelation
, what good is Remand
then? Unless you're going to win your game on your next turn, then all you did was delay the inevitable. But typically when the boot meets the ass, people go all out tapping for Sphinx's Revelation
so obviously, Stymied Hopes
will be your easy option here.
Same with Rakdos's Return
, as well as Syncopate
. Stymied Hopes
would end all of those spells. Don't underestimate the value of any magic card, like I said, there's always a place for any and every card.
It's crazy, it's almost like a team spends years developing these cards to find them a use.... who knew?
Just watch some pro tour matches, with Stymied Hopes
in even existence now, the meta game will change. People will have to be careful how they tap on "x" mana costs.
September 29, 2013 7:52 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #16
Uuhh ... no not really. It is very easy VERY EASY to keep one mana untapped to play a spell. Your opponent knows you are playing blue, and after a game they know your counterspells. Mana Leak is better because it is much harder to keep three mana untapped. And consider your opponent in a topdecking situation. He draws a Witchstalker . Your opponent has a better chance at having 4 mana instead of having 6 mana in that situation. Or even consider Remand . The regular argument for Remand is it Time Walk s your opponent. You get to draw a card that is generally a better answer and stall your opponent for a turn, you also know a card they have in their hand. If they play it again, you know they have nothing better in their hand.
Scry sure seems useful, but not as useful as a draw function, where in a control deck, every card should be playable and valuable. If it isn't then you have haven't been side-boarding properly or even have a good control deck. Scry is useful to have when your deck "fluctuates" against other decks, meaning certain card win here, certain cards win there. Scry is also really useful in combo decks.
Another note on Remand . Not all players run Remand , and not because of the cost. They enjoy the harder counters because their control style doesn't make Remand any good. Taking from other (numerous) sources again, Remand 's draw function is useful in combo decks, because there are many points in the game where you just need one card to go infinite or massive and win the game. And because it acts as a full draw ... it is better than scry, because if you scry and it's the card you want you basically played a two mana counterspell unless it's controller pays one. Remand in this situation gives you two cards, and your opponent has to worry more because now you have two possible answers for whatever they have instead of one.
Stymied Hopes is meant more for the early game, where the opponent will usually taps out more frequently. In the late game your opponent can easily just wait you out for land. And then play a spell with enough mana to present your Stymied Hopes as useless. I frequently play against control decks with my deck Kor Legions. And I play control style with it against a control deck, if they want to stall the game that's fine, I can easily stock my hand out to play a lot of my creatures and sorceries in which one or two will be guaranteed to get through and attack on that turn, which is all I need.
September 29, 2013 9:47 p.m.
TrollNtrample says... #17
Oh boy... After your giant novel, I'm debating if it's worth the time to break this down for you.
Here, I'll at least leave you with this.
You counter their spell with Remand
, then Remand
goes to the graveyard, their spell goes back into their hand. Then you draw ONE card. Stymied Hopes
counters their spell. Both cards are then sent to the graveyard. Then you scry. Scry is very useful. That way you can see if the card you're about to draw is relevant. If it's not, then put in on the bottom of your library, if it is relevant, then you'll draw it on your next draw step.
If the person you're playing against was countered with Remand
, then obviously they now know you don't have a better counter card in your hand. You revealed information to them, not the other way around, because now they can just play it next turn, or if they still have mana up, just play it again right there.
Also, I was talking about situations where Stymied Hopes
could be useful, it's apparent that you failed to figure that out on your own. So now I get to waste my time explaining that one plus one equals two.
Once more, there's Rakdos's Return
Sphinx's Revelation
Syncopate
-- these cards are commonly game changing and more often than not, completely tapped out. What good is Remand
then? Now does Remand
have it's uses, of course it does. That was my argument from the beginning, all cards in Magic have their niche. I feel like I'm talking to the spokesperson for Remand
... quite sad
Whoever posted this thread originally, like I said in my previous comment, it's all speculation, you honestly won't know until you've played the cards and see which one works out with your deck mechanics and strategies. Try them all out, and do what you can to ignore the fan boys, or girls, who are too sold on one card to open themselves up to other ideas. Otherwise you'll never grow as a player, and you're play style will become stale and predictable.
September 29, 2013 11 p.m.
Here.... I'll fix this, I'm not going to read either of your novels... Remand
puts it back in their hand, but you know its coming after that, usually, but you also draw a card.
Card advantage is that reason that Remand
gets the play it does, thats the bottom line and I don't wanna hear another peep about it. Now, go to your rooms.
September 29, 2013 11:07 p.m.
Given the proper conditions and boardstate any card can be good. The constant temptation however is to only see what a cards best state is.
September 29, 2013 11:15 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #21
Aww, you didn't read my novel Dorotheus? But I love writing! I would have made it even longer but a new idea for another story came to my head and I just had to write it down~
September 30, 2013 12:04 a.m.
I agree that each card can have it's uses in specific situations. Hell there's even some situations where Shock will beat Lightning Bolt (granted they are few, and far-fetched).
I'm just saying that if I had access to Mana Leak I would probably run it over Stymied Hopes . If Force Spike was modern legal, it would definitely be worth consideration.
Also, there can be made an interesting argument for Rune Snag over Mana Leak .
September 30, 2013 3:49 a.m.
Stymied Hopes simply isn't worth running. It will counter precisely one spell per match out of sheer surprise that anyone would play such a worthless card - if you're lucky - and after that, it's incredibly easy to play around. Force Spike and Daze would both be incredible if they were Modern legal, but they cost one mana. Stymied Hopes costs two. That means you can't play it until turn two, and if you're on the draw, that means it sees no action until they have three land out. At that point it's approximately as good as One with Nothing . Even if the extra mana to cast didn't suck all of the utility out of the card (it really needs to be playable on turn one), the Scry isn't worth it. From a purely theoretical standpoint, Scry 1 is generally recognized to be worth about a quarter to a third of the value of drawing a card, and drawing a card is generally recognized to be worth about two mana...well, you can do the math.
Remand is, in the right deck, incredible in Modern. This is exactly the counter that Twin wants to play, for instance, because all it needs to do is to delay you until turn 4 while it digs. It's bad against some things of course, like Lightning Bolt or Thoughtseize , but on the other hand it's pretty evil against a Birthing Pod being paid for with life.
For the same reason, Mana Leak tends to be more than serviceable...because Modern games often end fast enough that there isn't time for three extra mana to be available. This is not the case when you're playing a full-on control deck like UWR or Scapeshift, but in that case you really want Cryptic Command anyway.
September 30, 2013 10:49 p.m.
The type of counter you use depends on what your deck wants to do. I primarily run a Splinter Twin deck and my deck loves a Remand as well as Swan Song , I want to draw into my combo, keep my opponent of his/her game and I don't care if they get a 2/2 flyer since it won't make a difference when I combo off. Mana Leak is bad in my deck since once my opponent figures out what I'm up to, they're gonna' be holding up mana and spells to deal with my combo, especially game 2 Cryptic Command is just silly in my deck since I want that mana up to drop in my Pestermite and what not. The "best" counter is all relative to what your deck wants to do.
September 30, 2013 11:39 p.m.
Rune Snag
! THERE WE GO! I knew there was ONE card I was missing... I think I only have 2, but in a self mill deck, that could be powerful along side Cryptic Command
, thanks! :D
Mewgle says... #2
Im sorry to say, there isn't any.
September 26, 2013 12:16 a.m.