Abzan players, enlighten me!
Modern forum
Posted on June 1, 2015, 5:05 p.m. by TheAnnihilator
Why do you only run 3x Liliana of the Veil? Barring price/budget restrictions, of course. Also, only 2-3 Path to Exile? Finally, what are your opinions on Treetop Village vs. Stirring Wildwood?
As a twin player, what is my best line of winning? Should Twin leave the combo in at all during sb games?
Thanks in advance!
TheAnnihilator says... #3
Why is Lili not good vs twin? I always thought she was great vs. me...
June 1, 2015 5:10 p.m.
Eh. Her +1 doesn't help when you have endless draw and can discard lands. Her -2 isn't that great either.
I wouldn't necessarily side her out but I wouldn't depend on her.
June 1, 2015 5:13 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #5
4 Lilianas is only when control is really big. 4 Paths is too many for a deck that wins by attrition, the extra lands do matter. Treetop > Wildwood, but frequently mana requirements make you play Wildwood.
Board out your entire combo vs Abzan. 4 Exarchs and 4 Twin, and 2ish Mites. Build your sideboard so you can board in big threats and Jaces and actually have 10 to put in.
June 1, 2015 5:14 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #6
I'll point out that of Liliana stays in play vs. Twin, you win the game. She's excellent in that matchup. Gotta disagree, Chief.
June 1, 2015 5:15 p.m.
She doesn't actually kill anything other than Grim Lavamancer and whatever stall Pestermites that are thrown out there because of multiple copies and such. Twin can afford the discard while it digs for needed pieces with Serum Visions. While losing a few cards may hurt, that 3 mana invested into Liliana could have been a Kitchen Finks that would be pressuring the twin player's life total. All in all, it's not that great. As far as discard vs twin goes, both Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are much better pieces. Finally, tapping out 3 mana is fairly dangerous. Mind you, I don't play Abzan, so this is all just theorycrafting here.
June 1, 2015 5:16 p.m.
Yeah I've found the above.
Also they play bolt so she's not out of reach for them.
June 1, 2015 5:17 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #10
Sure, but Liliana always draws 3-4 cards (including +1) if she sticks. Visions doesn't really beat a Liliana, and your discard and removal can do an excellent job of protecting her.
I suppose it's all a matter of keeping Lili in play. I've found that pretty easy to do vs Twin.
June 1, 2015 5:20 p.m.
I tend to just not prioritise casting her and just go Abrupt Decay with a Tarmogoyf and beat them down.
June 1, 2015 5:24 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #12
Clarification: when I say "draw 3-4 cards" I mean that she forces them to get 3-4 cards out of their hand to kill her.
June 1, 2015 5:27 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
Playing combo against Abzan I find that Lili doesn't concern me. She is sorcery speed sac and discard I get to choose. She is better against aggro decks that need every card and creature.
June 1, 2015 6 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #14
Combo needs dem cards too. More so than aggro decks, frequently, and even when they don't need as many cards those cards are very specific. Liliana makes you draw the perfect card each turn to get your kill off.
June 1, 2015 6:24 p.m.
I think it depends on if the combo player has a full hand or not. If they're sitting there with the combo, a land, and some other junk then liliana is going to take too long to do anything. If their resources are stretched then she'll do a lot. Again though, against decks that can actively gain card advantage I just don't think she's guaranteed value.
June 1, 2015 6:25 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #16
Just saying...
you can bait Twin with a T3 Lilly and Slaughter Pact in hand xD
June 1, 2015 6:52 p.m. Edited.
TheAnnihilator says... #17
Well, I guess Lili isn't as good in G1 when the combo is active, but in g2-3 she might be better if you side the combo out (Lili destroys controlling decks).
@GlistenerAgent I actually got 1st place at the last FNM I took UR Twin to, beating Abzan in the final match. I simply didn't side the combo out when he expected me to in games 2 and 3. I sided in my Blood Moons and Keranos+Batterskull, but boarded out Remands, Cliques, etc. Worked well. I suppose Abzan doesn't like the split-wincons plan. It helps to invalidate their discard spells.
June 1, 2015 7:36 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #18
Drawing dead cards is bad, and Twin is an auto mulligan most of the time because of the amount of disruption they have. If you just go all in on the sideboard stuff, it's a lot more resilient IMO and you will be playing much more fluid games.
Don't board out Remand under any circumstances against Abzan. You only do that vs. aggro. Clique is rather good against them as well, as it takes annoying threats or sideboard cards and pressures a Liliana well.
June 1, 2015 8:16 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #19
I'd say that we should be thinking less about Abzan, and more about Jund. K Command and Terminate are just so much more useful at the moment. In Jund, you actually still want 3 Lilis. Like Chief said, there are lots of times she's not that great. On the other hand, Jund can use Liliana better than Abzan can, because the deck itself is more streamlined, and can support her much better than Abzan ever could.
In the BGx mirror, you don't want Lili. She's pretty rubbish against Lingering Souls and Dark Confidant.
ChiefBell says... #2
Liliana isn't amazing against twin. Is bad against delver due to tokens. Is bad against tokens decks. Isn't good against decks that run Birds of Paradise or Voice of Resurgence. Isn't very good against fliers. Isn't good against burn.
There are a lot of matchups where you just don't want to see her.
3 Path to Exile because you already have 2-3 Abrupt Decay and you need enough room for your creatures!
Best line of winning? Combo off with a counterspell in hand to stop their removal? Watch out for Abrupt Decay.
June 1, 2015 5:07 p.m.