Anyone else angry about the bans?
Modern forum
Posted on Jan. 28, 2013, 10:17 a.m. by vila_a23
Damnit Wizards! You went to far with the banning of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song . Oh you wanted to take jund down a little bit without hurting the rest of the format? Well why not ban Thoughtseize ! The discard spell was the thing that made jund so hard to play against! No, instead you ban a card that sees play in every deck that has access to green and red aside from naya pod. I don't care if I get disqualified, I am still going to cast bloodbraid elf and cascade into Boom/bust. And on the topic of Seething Song , why? Sure storm was a powerful deck but it was obviously not THE deck to play. Was it really necessary to make the deck unplayable? Sure we still have manamorphose and pyretic ritual but seething song completed the deck! Not to mention banning seething song also makes my favorite combo deck in. Modern ever unplayable. That's right guys, you can kiss hive mind goodbye because without an ability to cast hive mind before turn 6 there is no hope for the deck. Pyretic ritual is crap for hive mind because you have to string together a way to produce 3 other mana and 1 of them has to be blue.... All while holding onto at least 1 pact.
Anyway, enough of my rant. What does the community think of the bannings?
Rhadamanthus says... #3
Drawing extra cards and casting things for free usually cause problems when they're combined in the same card. Bloodbraid Elf has been subtly making decks way too good ever since she was first printed, especially Jund. Fortunately, she's a card I can see coming back eventually when the decks she would go in need to be made stronger.
I guess there were just too many rituals in the format. If they only wanted to get rid one then it makes sense to do the +2 ritual. +1 rituals are going to keep getting printed in pretty much every block from here on out, so getting rid of one or more of those would have had a largely pointless impact in the long term.
January 28, 2013 10:50 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #4
I wouldn't know where can i find out these bannings?
January 28, 2013 10:52 a.m.
DocLawless says... #7
Well, I gotta find another way to ramp my mono-red now. Pyretic Ritual , here I come.
January 28, 2013 11:31 a.m.
GreatSword says... #8
I never played Modern but even I could see that Jund was played wayyy too much. It seemed impossible to hate against because its only real theme was efficiently killing your opponent and his creatures. It's a great deck that plays Magic in its simplest form; but at the same time it really crushes a lot more "creative" decks and is probably one of the biggest reasons people don't want to play Modern.
January 28, 2013 11:41 a.m.
theinfernumflame says... #9
I was actually just getting into Modern and have been homebrewing a deck that ran Bloodbraid Elf as a way to get more cards out of the deck. Haven't even had a chance to play at a tourney or anything yet, and now I have to replace Bloodbraid with something else. Don't know whether to go with other lackluster Cascade cards, or just go creature advantage and use Huntmaster of the Fells Flip .
January 28, 2013 12:07 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #10
I was actually happy that Jund was overplayed. Makes it easier for Eggs to do good :P
On a serious note Wizards is pushing for a more accessible Modern. (Shock reprints, Modern Masters, etc.) One of the things that I'm sure they are trying to do is to provide less of a stagnant meta so that other decks can compete. If Jund is TOO good that means that other decks won't be played and all you will see is the mirror match. This makes it very hard to jump into the format where you are just going to get crushed by Jund deck after Jund deck.
January 28, 2013 12:15 p.m.
I'm kinda wondering if Bloodbraid Elf was slated for reprinting in Modern Masters. I certainly hope not as that would mean opening a useless card in your packs, which is feel bads all around, and Wizards has stated they don't like banning cards partly because of that (doesn't mean they won't ban when they have to though, case in point is Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic ).
January 28, 2013 12:21 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #12
To be fair foxhull they only banned Stoneforge Mystic because of Batterskull and the swords which were staying in standard for quite a while. They banned the mystic because of the interaction with those equips and because it was easier/better to just ban the card that was rotating out. They didn't reprint Mana Leak for the same reason (though they did admit Snapcaster Mage + Mana Leak was incredibly broken).
JtMS, on the other hand, was banned for himself lol.
January 28, 2013 12:26 p.m.
theinfernumflame says... #13
Thing is, Jund isn't entirely unstoppable. Yes, it does what it does well, but hit it with Pyroclasm, and won't have any creatures left but Tarmogoyf (which a bunch of other decks run anyway) and maybe Kitchen Finks (ditto).
January 28, 2013 12:27 p.m.
Arachnarchist says... #14
"Incredibly Unstoppable" has never been a prerequisite for banning. Most of the cards that have been banned in Modern (since the initial bannings) have not been "Incredibly Unstoppable." Fact is, Jund was dominating, and Storm was killing too fast too consistently.
January 28, 2013 12:37 p.m.
The problem with Jund is that none of the cards are truly overpowered. The deck is just really good at gaining card advantage and playing efficient threats. That's why banning Bloodbraid Elf feels wrong. Overall this is probably a good thing for the meta but I tend to think that this was the lazy way (or just the quickest way) to solve it.
If they're trying to make Modern newb-friendly, I think they missed the mark. Will this allow RG Tron to dominate? One of the scary things I have to think about when I build a deck in Modern is "How can I deal with a 15/15 spaghetti monster?". More often than not, there is no answer. Jund pushed RG Tron to be only fringe-playable. If Jund is no longer viable, I wonder what's next? Will they ban the Urzalands like they did with Cloudpost ? Again, I don't think that would be the right decision.
As for Seething Song , it comes off as a strange decision but I think Storm will survive without it. It was a good card but I think Goblin Electromancer is good enough of an addition to keep the deck going.
Aside from the Modern bannings, I definitely agree with the Pauper bannings. Storm was just too powerful of a mechanic for the format since there are very few answers available at common-rarity. Invigorate plus infect just sucks. It takes longer to shuffle your deck than it does to play a game against pauper infect.
January 28, 2013 2:48 p.m.
theinfernumflame says... #17
I agree with you about Tron. That deck is pretty nuts as it is; banning Bloodbraid Elf makes it harder for me to find consistent answers to those giant threats (note that I'm not even playing Jund). And since so many other top end searching or drawing cards are banned, it's not getting any easier. Yeah, there are other cascade cards, but they're not all that great.
January 28, 2013 3:14 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #18
@graft it may be worth splashing white for sideboard answers in your decks. Meddling Mage can do WONDERS v.s. tron. LD is also good v.s. tron. Thoughtseize , Duress , Inquisition of Kozilek , or even Appetite for Brains can get him before he hits.
January 28, 2013 3:29 p.m.
As a Storm player, I call shenanigans on the Seething Song banning. Storm might be able to kill on turn 3 or even turn 2 if your lucky, but it doesn't happen consistently enough to warrant a banning. I have been following Pro Tour Qualifiers and Grand Prix's religiously, and rarely do I see a Storm deck in top 8. What's next, a ban on Birthing Pod because Pod decks will dominate the format next?
January 28, 2013 3:35 p.m.
theinfernumflame says... #20
It's Modern, i.e., the "let's get banhappy" format. So, probably.
January 28, 2013 3:42 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #21
Probably not the pod itself but maybe Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker lol.
January 28, 2013 3:48 p.m.
Wizards is way to ban happy on modern imo. It is their "pet" format so I can understand them trying to keep the meta from being dominated by a single deck but they shot down the wrong villains with this one. Look at Bloodbraid Elf, it fits nicely at the top end of the curve for jund so you will always cascade into a juicy target. However, that target isn't always what you want. Dark Confidant is much better at drawing card advantage for the jund deck and tarmogoyf provides a much faster clock. Thoughtseize is the main reason jund is so hard to play against as they set up your hand to be bad against theirs. A lot of jund decks will just switch over to huntmaster of the fells any way that can be even harder to deal with than bloodbraid elf. I think that the correct ban would have been to snuff thoughtseize (or unban mental mistep). Better pick up your pods and urza lands now folks because their going to be hard to come by here soon.
January 28, 2013 3:58 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #23
I still don't think that this makes Tron and Pod the "best". Affinity is still a thing and with lots of people not running enchantment hate card:Quest for Ula's Temple is slowly becoming a thing again. (Squee!)
I do agree that Thoughtseize is a pain in the ass and is probably a better target for a banning as most times v.s. combo or some aggro deck Jund won't SEE 4 mana unless they T1 a Deathrite Shaman . On the other hand Thoughtseize is one of Jund's only protection tools for combo, which is Jund's weakspot commonly.
January 28, 2013 4:12 p.m.
theinfernumflame says... #24
Ban that and you hurt Pod and Splinter. Two decks, one banhammer.
January 28, 2013 4:14 p.m.
theinfernumflame says... #25
("That" being a reference to Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ).
January 28, 2013 4:18 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #26
Moved to Modern because that's the relevant format for this discussion.
Banning Bloodbraid Elf is in no way unfair. Jund was consistently winning events, which means there's less format diversity. The ban is meant to give other decks a shot, which is exactly what the DCI uses bans for. While it's true that Bloodbraid Elf can be played outside of Jund, it offers huge advantage for its cost. Cascade into Blightning gives you a 2/2 haste, Lightning Bolt , and Mind Rot all for 2RG. Other cards may be better at doing certain things, but Bloodbraid Elf was good at doing a lot of things for free.
And in defense of the DCI, Modern is more comparatively heavily regulated by bans because it's the newest format, and the DCI wants to test the proverbial waters. If a few decks have to get screwed to build the format up, it's not as big a loss as the format being dominated by one or two lists and players losing interest as a result. As the format becomes more stable, we will likely see unbannings here and there. It's impossible to please everyone, so the DCI has to do what it thinks is best for the majority.
January 28, 2013 4:20 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #27
@theinfernumflame I was kidding ;)
I really don't think that any deck is perfect. Cifka showed us that by going against a Jund meta with eggs and going 14-1. That being said, Jund is one of the most stable and reliable decks. Banning Bloodbraid Elf , as Epochalyptik said, gives so much value it's amazing.
January 28, 2013 4:27 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #29
It's not so much about stability and reliability as it is about format diversity. Many of the top decks are relatively stable, but they don't flourish when Jund is winning every tournament. Rather than banning cards because the decks they belong to are good, which would destroy the format, the DCI bans cards because the decks they belong to are too prevalent.
January 28, 2013 4:31 p.m.
To expand on what Epochalyptik said, the downside of cascade is supposed to be the "randomness" of flipping your library until you hit something that might be good or might be not-so-good. Unfortunately in Jund the randomness was alleviated running many high-value low-cost cards. The overall power level of the deck is why Bloodbraid Elf was so good, and why it was banned.
@ Ohthenoises: I've been running BW Tokens for a while now and Tron is a tough matchup even with 4x Thoughtseize and 4x Fulminator Mage . Usually B/W has plenty of answers, but if you don't have an answer by turn 3 and they slam a Karn Liberated it's pretty much gg.
Unfortunately with these bannings I think I'll have to forget about BW Tokens being good for a while. I'm actually working on a Doran/Gifts list and I totally forgot to consider Meddling Mage , so thanks for that!
January 28, 2013 5:19 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #31
Banning Seething Song to stop storm decks, makes as much sense as banning petroleum to stop wars.
January 28, 2013 5:19 p.m.
I don't like how jund is the dominate deck. I agree that something needed to banned or un-banned in order to balance the format out. None of the cards in jund are way too good or broken, they are all just really good. BBE was the only thing that could have been banned in order for jund's dominance to go down. There could have been an un-banning instead, i'm not sure what but something.what do you think? what could have been un-banned to dis-wade jund's popularity?
I really dislike the Seething Song ban.
January 28, 2013 5:32 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
Dissuade, you mean.
Jund is a strong deck, and a number of the banned cards would fit comfortably into the Jund shell. I think the ban was more necessary than an unbanning, especially because the ban does what it's intended to do while an unbanning could have additional consequences.
January 28, 2013 5:55 p.m.
Firstly, I have to apologize for going off on a tangent like I did. After thinking the bans through I understand that Jund was one of the most played decks the format, at least in Alabama, is still diverse and full of random decks. You may go to a big modern tournament and not even end up playing jund at all that day. I got upset over the ban because I play Naya Boom Bust and the deck is all but dead in the water without Bloodbraid Elf whereas Jund will still be around. People are going to make up for the missing elf by including more value 3 drops and possibly even Huntmaster of the Fells Flip (a card that already sees alot of sideboard play in jund). While I understand the reasoning and thought process of Wizards when they made the ban, I still feel like they banned the wrong card. I also still believe the Seething Song ban is complete crap.
What are you guys thoughts on a possible unban coming up? Bitterblossom spiked in price from 8 dollars to 16+ last night on modo and that made me think someone had some kind of inside information, but unfortunately it did not happen. I think Preordain and card:Umezawa's Jitte would be fine. Preordain only offers incrimintal advantage of 1 card for 1 card. Jitte would not be nearly as good in the format without Stoneforge Mystic so I see nothing wrong with unbanning it. Unbanning Jitte would open up more tempo based strategies as well as midrange strategies as well. Godo, Bandit Warlord is a card and while costing extremely high for modern, with some ramp i think it could be something to look into if Jitte is unbanned. I doubt jitte will though because having jitte wars is a very skill intensive process and if it is true that wizards is trying to make modern more of a "newb friendly" format then it will stay banned.
January 28, 2013 7:05 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #35
I would LOVE Preordain in Eggs AND card:Quest for Ula's Temple. I don't see why Serum Visions is ok but Preordain isn't but that's neither here nor there because American Delver, which is already good, will be 10x better which makes me doubt that it will be unbanned.
January 28, 2013 7:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
The thing about Preordain is it makes combo decks way too consistent and opens up the possibility for more frequent turn-3 wins. That's exactly what the DCI doesn't want - a meta full of fast, stable combo decks crushing everything else.
January 28, 2013 7:23 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #37
My point is why is Serum Visions ok when the other isn't.
January 28, 2013 7:24 p.m.
Maybe the issue is that having both Preordain
and Serum Visions
together would be unbalancing so they had to pick one?
January 28, 2013 7:28 p.m.
Simply because you get to see what you are drawing before you actually draw. It may not seem like a huge difference, but when playing combo decks it has a serious impact.
January 28, 2013 7:29 p.m.
Serum Visions is not as good because you aren't setting up your draw. You are still getting the same card advantage with 1 for 1, but being able to set up what you draw before you draw is much better than just drawing.
January 28, 2013 7:31 p.m.
jan2692wal says... #41
Seething Song was banned because the DCI defines modern as a format where matches can be won after turn four. Storm decks consistantly won before that, so they ban the cheapest ramp spell they have in order to hinder it, it is still very much playable, its just more within the definition of what modern is now. and Bloodbraid Elf is predominantly used in Jund decks, more so than any other deck. the reason they banned it is because it was an integral part of Jund while not being a huge part in many other decks, therefore crippling Jund without screwing over the entire format, which would be the case if Thoughtseize was banned, seeing as it is used in every deck that plays black. I don't see Kiki-pod decks ever being too overpowered, so I doubt they'll ever be nerfed to the extent Jund was. and modern is a fairly new format, of course they seem ban-happy now, they're trying to stabilize it. Is that gauranteed to happen? no, new cards have a much bigger impact on it then they do in legacy, and sometimes even in standard, but in order for it to not become a degenerate format, they need to keep it on a tight leash. stop whining and let them do their jobs, because they're obviously doing it well, seeing as people will still/currently enjoy playing modern, despite the moaning and groaning going on.
January 28, 2013 7:35 p.m.
jan2692wal says... #42
oh, and Serum Visions is considerably weaker than Preordain , it has a randomness factor to it that Preordain doesn't.
January 28, 2013 7:40 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #43
That's fair I suppose. For my purposes they fill an identical role.
January 28, 2013 7:42 p.m.
People have a right to complain, whether or not the bannings make the format more stable and enjoyable for others, for instance, my friend just spent a very large amount of money on a Jund deck, which while the deck hasn't been completely and utterly destroyed by the loss of BBE, he still is going to have to change cards in the deck he just finished. Also, I am quite mad as I was looking to get another friend into the format by loaning him my Storm deck, which won't be the same as it was before Seething Song was banned.
January 28, 2013 7:43 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #45
Try Huntmaster of the Fells Flip . I know it's expensive but it could fill the role of value rather well.
January 28, 2013 7:47 p.m.
The point is that my friend now has to replace a $2.19 card and replace it with a $26.93 card because someone decided Jund needed to be knocked down a few pegs.
January 28, 2013 7:52 p.m.
jan2692wal says... #47
Thats the risk you take when you play magic. its like being in the stock market. sometimes things go the way you expect them to, otherwise they turn to shit. thats life.
January 28, 2013 8:06 p.m.
jan2692wal says... #48
Also, as a company who's product is supposed to be entertainment, the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. if a few people need to rebuild decks so that everyone else can enjoy playing, so be it.
January 28, 2013 8:10 p.m.
And just like the stock market, when people go broke, they drop out. Plus, not everybody can afford to just "rebuild" their decks, I know it took me a while until I accumulated the card base to break into Modern, and while I can simply take the lands out of my Storm deck and move it into a new project, I know people who are switching back to casual magic after I finally convinced them to start playing in tournaments, because they can't afford to just sleeve up a new deck when the format shifts, which is the main reason many people switched from Standard to Modern. So if bannings like this, (and if we use Legacy as a predecessor) keep happening, the format will continue to degenerate until it either evens out (like Legacy) or snaps as the players who lost so much playing the format turn away.
January 28, 2013 8:32 p.m.
jan2692wal says... #50
The format will become degenerate if these bans do not occur, Jund will become what Affinity decks were in standard when they had access to Skullclamp and the standard environment with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic :unbearingly repetitive and boring, the very reason the DCI was created was to prevent that. so yeah, it sucks that people can't afford it, god knows I can't, but shit happens and what they're doing is for the best in the end and will help the format as a whole, which is their job.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #2
I'm kinda sore about Bloodbraid Elf I haven't played in modern tournaments, but I was building an elf tribal modern deck with Bloodbraid Elf into Boom as a way to deny my opponent mana while I had mounds of elves tapping for green. While it was nowhere near tier 1, it was a way to try and make elf tribal semi-competitive w/o being a mono-green ramp combo deck.
January 28, 2013 10:36 a.m.