Ashiok in modern
Modern forum
Posted on June 11, 2015, 12:49 p.m. by BloodoftheBloodMoon
I feel ashiok could be an extreme force to be reckoned with in modern. Being a 3 drop planeswalker with a crazy +2 ability with the possibility of cutting off your opponents win cons. The only problem is she locks you into certain colors. I feel the best deck that would include her would be bu control, or bug control. What kind of shell do you think she'd work best in? And how competitive would the deck be?
What does Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver actually do?
The +2, as a form of mill is absolutely useless. Statistically we don't know whether each card you mill gets the opponent closer or further from the card you want. You could as easily cause them to draw into their abrupt decay next turn by activating it, as you could force them to mill it away.
The -X is utterly useless against a great deal of decks. Control? Burn? Tron? Amulet Bloom? Delver? There are loads of decks where you're unlikely to hit anything, let along it be worthwhile to take.
June 11, 2015 1:05 p.m.
so far in all of my tests, she has been great. even better against control than aggro. you are correct that it may get them to their desired card faster, but control likes to hold cards in hand, if ashiok is ticking up without an answer, in a few turns, they will have no hand left. any control deck not running Abrupt Decay or to a lesser extent Dreadbore has a very hard time dealing with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, especially a turn 2 drop. you literally don't have to play anything else against them, and just tick the elevator up.
June 11, 2015 1:11 p.m.
Any control deck has a hard time answering any planeswalker. That's not a decent reason to run Ashiok in itself though.
June 11, 2015 1:13 p.m.
I played Ashiok last Standard season in an Esper control deck, and had great success. I'm just not sure that will carry over into Modern. As Chief pointed out, lots of Modern decks run few if any creatures. Ashiok can be a real pain to get rid of, especially once it's starts ticking up, but I'm not really sure the ultimate justifies it. Yeah you can clear their hand, but we're talking on turn 6-7. Seems a little too slow for what it actually does.
June 11, 2015 1:16 p.m.
First, we dont' know what Ashiok's gender is and that's how Ashiok likes it.
As far as Ashiok's place in Modern, Ashiok has seen some play in Sultai midrange/control decks, but feels stronger when decks like Abzan or Zoo are better since you're able to steal their threats for quite cheap. The answers to Ashiok are obvious: Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, etc; but Ashiok is quite powerful in the right shell.
Whether you play Ashiok in your 
decks is probably metagame dependent.
June 11, 2015 1:17 p.m.
Lightning Bolt is not an answer to Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, shes at 5 upon cast.
June 11, 2015 1:20 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #9
Ashiok is surprisingly powerful. Backed up by removal, it can really take over a game, and is slightly more resilient than Liliana.
June 11, 2015 1:22 p.m.
Yeah but you have to tick Ashiok down to do anything useful.
June 11, 2015 1:23 p.m.
ChiefBell - Same can be said about most Planeswalkers. The + ability usually doesn't get you the effect you want, while the - abilities are where the power lies. That said, you can't be sad if all you can do with Ashiok is +2 every turn, that eats a ton of cards from the opponent's deck. Now it is true that you could be digging them closer to their bomb, but if you're on the mill plan you have to ignore that part. It's similar to why Thought Scour is good in some decks because while you might mill the card you need it's essentially random.
June 11, 2015 1:28 p.m.
Yeh but like nobody is in the mill plan, and thats not true at all regarding + abilities. Lili's +1 literally wins games on its own, without a ton of deck support for discard. This doesn't.
June 11, 2015 1:29 p.m.
trollslayer says... #13
I like ahiok. Also I need help, how do I post a forum?
June 11, 2015 1:32 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #14
She's not. She's good, but she's more of a win-more if she sticks and a waste of mana if she doesn't.
June 11, 2015 1:34 p.m.
ChiefBell - I didn't say all planeswalkers, just most. There are obviously exceptions to every rule: Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Liliana of the Veil all make that list.
And to reiterate to FAMOUSWATERMELON, ryanjoha, and Khanye; Ashiok's gender is uknown and quite possibly doesn't have one.
June 11, 2015 1:36 p.m.
you dont have to be on the mill plan. if she ticks up consistently the ultimate strips them AND leaves her alive to eat a bolt if necessary, but ya thats few and far in between. Ashiok is very powerful, especially as a t2 drop.
June 11, 2015 1:36 p.m.
You keep saying as a t2 drop, but I'm not really sure that's realistic. To drop it on t2, you have to be playing Green with mana dorks. So you've forced yourself into BUG and only BUG. Secondly, you've said yourself Ashiok works best in control decks that keep the board clear. Control decks don't run dorks. So now you've basically forced yourself into a non-conventional build, all for one card. I don't think that's work it.
June 11, 2015 1:40 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #19
I love ashiok in control especially against something like Jund. Sure they Might have that decay. but even so you spent 3 mana and removed 4 cards from their use. That's pretty nice.
June 11, 2015 1:53 p.m.
even as a 3 drop, it can be pretty powerful. I think it will see more play as the season goes along
June 11, 2015 1:54 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #21
Or you cast Glimpse the Unthinkable and get 10 for two mana. Seems like a better deal to me.
June 11, 2015 1:54 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #23
Slaughter Games? Also, as I said, if you manage to keep her on the board in a control, you're already winning.
June 11, 2015 1:56 p.m.
I think it has potential as a SB card against B/G/x decks. Stealing a Goyf or a Rhino seems good. But against something like Storm is completely useless.
June 11, 2015 1:57 p.m.
I think something worth noting with ashiok is that te cards are exiled. Not graveyard like Glimpse the Unthinkable would do so say you are against a tron deck with eldrazi leaders ashiok removes it from the game with no elixir effect. Glimpse literally becomes "your opponent shuffles their graveyard into their library" if you hit an eldrazi lord or if you hit a lingering souls or other card with flashback, ashiok avoids those triggers
June 11, 2015 2 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #26
That doesn't make sense to me. If it sticks, you sculpt out answers out of their deck that they can't get back by any means. If it doesn't, they have to waste a spell or whatever to deal with it thus still sculpting out answers from their deck. It plays good support.
June 11, 2015 2 p.m.
ya, its not a win more if it sticks. its an early drop meaning you drop it and turn the clock on them. the naysayers have not used ashiok themselves, and the people in support have. its plain and simple. any UBx deck can utilize it as support for lily. fantastic pair they both make, you dont need to steal creatures to make ashiok effective. just exiling stuff is powerful enough. also tiny leaders is quickly becoming a thing, and ashiok is painful as shit in there.
June 11, 2015 2:02 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #28
To be clear, I've never played with it myself but I have been on the receiving end of it and it was pretty annoying.
June 11, 2015 2:04 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #29
dan8080 Everything has weaknesses.
VampireArmy and Khanye The only think besides Decay that can reliably kill Ashiok and that's in 99% of decks are creatures. Now we already said that Ashiok was going to be found in a control deck, correct? Let's look at two scenarios: If you opponent doesn't have any creatures on the board in a control deck, you're easily winning. Dropping Ashiok will therefore simply make things easier. However, if your opponent does have creatures and you drop an Ashiok, you're already losing, and Ashiok will do nothing to stop that since you need at least a turn for her to be useful. In fact, she'll probably get killed during your opponent's next turn. Hence why I say that she's a win-more.
June 11, 2015 2:07 p.m.
then you have at least experienced it. people scoffed at JTMS when he was spoiled, and yet here we are in the near future...i am not saying ashiok is remotely close to the beloved blue mage, but to write it off as a win more is incorrect. it is a 3 drop walker that can take over a game easily.
June 11, 2015 2:07 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #31
Also, I've tried playing her in a Sultai control brew, and it didn't work out for the reasons stated above.
June 11, 2015 2:08 p.m.
aside from a goyf, no creature can reliably swing into ashiok and kill it on curve. you slam ashiok down, they have 1 turn to kill it, before you have an answer to their creature, while increasing its loyalty. 5 loyalty is the magic number, and ashiok has it upon cast.
June 11, 2015 2:08 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #33
Most decks won't have one creature, but I'll ignore that for the moment. You play Ashiok, they have a Rhino. You +2 Ashiok, she gets a lucky creature. They swing, Ashiok's at one. Now you can either -1 her for a small creature that won't survive a rhino, or you can +2 and get a total of six cards before she dies. Six random cards, whereas Games, for example, gets the four most important ones.
June 11, 2015 2:11 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #34
FAMOUSWATERMELON what you've described is two extreme scenarios.
You're forgetting that in modern most control decks are forced to be creature based and therefore the more likely scenario involves cluttered boards and answering threats. The most optimal place for Ashiok (IMO) is a Sultai deck running 3x lil / 2x Ashiok with perhaps 1 more ashiok in the sideboard.
More of a controlling midrange card to me is what I'm saying
June 11, 2015 2:11 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #35
Well I can't really judge midrange because I play control and have only tested her there, but blue midrange decks are practically inexistant and they probably have better things to do with three mana anyways. Or two mana.
June 11, 2015 2:13 p.m.
famous, the scenario you mentioned, the control player is going 3 turns without having removal in hand? da fuq kinda of a control deck is that? 3 turns i am counting as the turn you cast ashiok, the turn rhino comes down, and the turn rhino swings. like we have been stating all along, she is great in a control / midrange shell for UBx. All of those decks run a plethora of counters / removal / hand disruption as well as fatties themselves: tasigur, elesh norn, grave titan, goyf, rhino. if you look at any card in a vacuum, ofcourse it will look bad. I have used the card myself to success in modern...as well as been at the receiving end, so I know its power level. the minus ability is seldomly used, that ability is the win more. best course of action is to hit the ultimate as soon as possible.
June 11, 2015 2:16 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #37
Only two turns, and in a scenario where he's likely in top-deck mode, that's easy. The Rhino is already on the field.
June 11, 2015 2:18 p.m. Edited.
top deck mode on turn 3-4?...i want to play against your meta...seems like easy money...
June 11, 2015 2:19 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #39
When did I say T3-4...? If you're dropping Ashiok on T3 in a control deck against midrange, you're probably not playing right.
June 11, 2015 2:21 p.m.
t1: thoughtseize / inquisition > t2: remand / decay / ts / iok > t3: ashiok / lily t4: anything else....
June 11, 2015 2:24 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #42
All I'm saying is 3x Lili and 2x Ash with the basic BGx shell accompanied by some counter-magic could be a cool thing
June 11, 2015 2:37 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #43
VampireArmy That's what I tried, minus two Lilis XD Though it was control, not midrange.
June 11, 2015 2:39 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #45
I'm not a midrange player :( All I know is that she's pretty lackluster in control.
June 11, 2015 2:41 p.m.
Ach! If you're playing blue in modern, you do NOT tap out turn three anyways.
Else we would all be playing Geist.
As such, one does not drop Ashiok turn three.
June 11, 2015 3:10 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #48
The fact that ashiok can instantly force your opponent to top deck in a matter of turns, it makes your opponent have to deal with her. If they can't, you just win. I know that looking at an ultimate isn't the best idea on a planeswalker, but if you're playing a control deck against a top-decking opponent, you just win. The fact is, the opponent will either a) try to win faster, or b) focus ashiok down. In either scenario, you control the game to prevent your opponent from winning in a) and then ult ashiok, or you just let them target ashiok and get a few more turns to set up your hand/board.
June 11, 2015 3:49 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #50
Except that she doesn't have an immediate impact on the game. Let's look at the top couple planeswalkers in Modern:
Liliana of the Veil can use two abilities on entry, and both of them are extremely powerful. She can destroy hands and destroy creatures.
Ajani Vengeant can use two abilities on entry, both of them are again powerful, though not to the extent of Liliana. He can keep the opponent's best attacker down or a land, he can burn the opponent or a creature and gain some life.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant can use two abilities on entry. She provides either a chump/creature to protect herself or attack if needed, or she can literally win the game in one turn, giving your biggest creature a healthy boost and evasion.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor can use two abilities on entry. He gains you some life while serving as an anthem (through your opponent's turn, people often forget that) or he can provide an evasive body. Granted, he's only really useful in a couple decks, but he's deadly in those.
Jace, Architect of Thought can use two abilities on entry. He can protect himself while making attackers smaller (and that's protection from Twin right there), or he can get you a nice healthy card advantage with his dig ability, all while filling the grave for delve cards if necessary.
All of the walkers above make an impact the turn they come in, and can turn a game around right away. They're also all out of range of bolt, assuming that you use their + ability the first turn, and most of them are also out of range of CMC3 selective cards (Abrupt Decay, Inquisition of Kozilek).
Now let's look at Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: She has one ability that she can use when coming in. It doesn't have an immediate impact on the game. There is no guarantee that you can reliably use the second ability on her next turn either, so let's say that it'll probably take three turns for her to get working. Assuming that she survives all those turns without damage, fairly unlikely. Three turns is not nearly fast enough to turn a game around, more like it'll barely influence it. And if you are in a position where you can keep a walker for three turns in Modern, you've already won and Ashiok is completely unnecessary.
Khanye says... #2
ive been using her in gifts control and alongside lily its a pain in the ass to deal with. Abrupt Decay is a problem, but that seems to be the only answer to her at the moment
June 11, 2015 12:57 p.m.