Ashiok in modern
Modern forum
Posted on June 11, 2015, 12:49 p.m. by BloodoftheBloodMoon
I feel ashiok could be an extreme force to be reckoned with in modern. Being a 3 drop planeswalker with a crazy +2 ability with the possibility of cutting off your opponents win cons. The only problem is she locks you into certain colors. I feel the best deck that would include her would be bu control, or bug control. What kind of shell do you think she'd work best in? And how competitive would the deck be?
VampireArmy says... #2
You know what? That's a good compromise and fair assessment, JWiley129
June 11, 2015 4:38 p.m.
VampireArmy - I said the same thing in comment #6, but thank you. I try to make fair assessments of cards, but sometimes I'm off base. This time, however, I feel like I'm on point.
June 11, 2015 4:42 p.m.
I like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in decks playing countermagic (a la Cryptic Command) where Liliana of the Veil would fall flat on her face. The number of decks in Modern that are completely without creatures is next to nil.
Even against Storm, stealing a Goblin Electromancer can do wonders. Or against Titan, you hit the jackpot if you can get an Azusa, Lost but Seeking. Burn doesn't have anything with trample, so if you steal a Goblin Guide, you're going to use it to block another Goblin Guide or Monastery Swiftspear. Regardless, you're saving on precious life.
The only decks I'd really be concerned over are Tokens (where the creatures in the deck don't have flying to deal with Lingering Souls, Boggles (since they give their guys trample), and Infect (again, you're concerned over flying Inkmoth Nexus).
June 11, 2015 4:59 p.m.
Ashiok is actually very, very powerful. I was playing it for a little while after I got out of standard. I played Esper Control, and built an Esper Control list in modern shortly after. It's +2 exiles cards from their library, which isn't relevant, but extremely powerful by all the things you are essentially doing by exiling creatures, spells, lands, and thinning out their deck. It's minus ability allows you to use powerful creatures the opponent is playing. Most decks in modern have creatures. Hate the price tag on Tarmogoyf? Play Ashiok, mill it, play it on your next turn. If that doesn't seem good to you, you're stupid. lol Last but not least, the ultimate makes the opponent top deck. While that alone doesn't seem that great, it clears the way if you are not already in the lead. Also, even after using his ultimate (and that is if Ashiok hasn't been damaged) you get to keep exiling their deck.
All in all, Ashiok is sick. and to answer this posts question, I prefer Ashiok in an Esper deck, but Sultai or Grixis could be cool too.
June 11, 2015 6:20 p.m.
Id be interested to test Ashiok. I discounted zhim (gender neutral pronoun?) because I saw him as not useful against a variety of decks. Maybe against some decks he's very good. The fact that he has a +2 instead of +1 is quite appealing I think. Though I worry he doesn't do enough against a large number of things.
June 11, 2015 6:30 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #7
Like BelegValdaglerion said, ashiok thins the opponents deck. Is that a bad thing? Maybe. Is that a good thing? Why not. It doesn't matter if it's good or not. It all matters on what cards you mill. You mill 3 lands and lead them right into a decay, sucks to suck. You mill a decay, a goyf and a cryptic command? It's your lucky day. The longer ashiok stays on the field, the more likely you are to mill those good cards
June 11, 2015 6:47 p.m.
its not mill, its exile dammit. there is a clear distinction...milling emrakul means opponent just trolled you, exiling him means you are the victor
June 11, 2015 6:50 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #9
You exile two grapeshots from a storm deck, that's two less win cons they can run into. If that's the only two win cons, you just win right there
June 11, 2015 6:56 p.m.
The problem with ryanjoha and BelegValdaglerion's arguments is that you are using BCSM (Best Case Scenario Mentality). You have to look at the average use case for every card to determine it's usefulness. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is an average card in this format that is purely matchup dependent.
June 11, 2015 6:59 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #11
That's very true. But let's look at odds. Each deck that plays decay has 4. So that's 1/15th of their deck. By the time ashiok is out, there's ~50 cards in the opponents deck. So that's 8% of their deck is decay. Ashiok exiles 3 cards per use. So every time you exile a card, the odds go up. So if you do the calculations, 24.5% of the time, you'll exile a decay, or any other card that's played 4 of. Of course there are many more factors, like do they have one in hand or have they used one already, or did you thoughtseize one already. But 1 in 4 times you use ashiok you'll hit something of value, I like those odds.
June 11, 2015 7:18 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #12
That's considering you played it on t3, which is usually never the case, in which case the odds just keep going up
June 11, 2015 7:19 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #13
Plus I agree with ashiok being matchup dependent. That's why I like her as a sideboard card, perhaps even a singleton mainboard.
June 11, 2015 7:20 p.m.
ryanjoha - That's still not good enough for competitive play, if you're relying on the +2 ability of Ashiok to win the game. The ultimate is cute, but that suffers the same problem 8-rack has: You can't control the top of the opponent's deck. And with Serum Visions being a widely played card, you have even less control over what you'll hit with Ashiok's +2.
I'm glad you agree that Ashiok is matchup dependent, but I think you and I disagree where Ashiok makes the biggest impact. I like Ashiok against creature based decks and dislike Ashiok against Combo/linear aggro decks.
Khanye - I think that's a fair distribution in 
decks.
June 11, 2015 7:23 p.m.
gifts control is where i am running it. basically place holder for 3rd lily, but i think it serves well
June 11, 2015 7:27 p.m.
Khanye - I can see that, especially since Gifts Ungiven can let you find your silver bullets whenever you want. Idk if the deck is that good, but I understand and appreciate its power.
June 11, 2015 7:29 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #19
It's not the +2 that will win the game, it's the amount of useful cards your opponent won't have due to him/her.If ashiok exiles a card. It doesn't matter which cards, if it's any which way useful to your opponent, they won't have the luxury of playing that card. It's the card denial, just like liliana, that makes her/him good.
June 11, 2015 8:14 p.m.
ryanjoha - What you just said proves that the +2 wins the game, however you shouldn't play Ashiok solely for that purpose. Again, you're still on BCSM.
I'm not saying that Ashiok is unplayable, it's just that Ashiok is not as good as you claim Ashiok to be.
June 11, 2015 8:18 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #21
It's not BCSM. Ashiok exiles three cards upon entry. Which cards she exiles is completely random. It provides card denial. Similar to liliana. It's card denial that makes Ashiok good. I'm not saying Ashiok is top tier play it in every deck it can fit in, I'm saying it's good enough to be played in modern along side other strong cards
June 11, 2015 8:55 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #22
It seems like this: would you pay three mana (UB colors) to make the opponent not attack your life total for a few turns? What Ashiok does is subtle, Ashiok is simply a distraction. It's incremental advantage, and it happens to be a very good win-con against a control opponent.
If you're playing a deck that wants to take very little damage or tie your opponent up in a struggle that doesn't really matter, then Ashiok may be a good fit. If not, then Ashiok literally does nothing.
I personally think that there are better options than Ashiok, because if your opponent knows their deck well enough, they know what to do when Ashiok hits. Burn knows to ignore it, Twin ignores it, Junk/Jund attacks it dead in 2 or 3 turns without losing their board presence (or Decays it). The only deck that Ashiok is a real threat against is control, which is a dead strategy right now in Modern anyways.
June 12, 2015 11:27 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #23
Also, Ashiok does NOT provide resource denial. The opponent's hand and draw steps kill you. Exiling three from their deck doesn't affect their hand and doesn't deny them a draw step. Ashiok's +2 simply escalates to the ult, and potentially exiles combo pieces (maybe). That's all it does.
June 12, 2015 11:35 a.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #24
if you're playing against junk. you stick ashiok and +2 him. the three cards you exile are three less cards they have that can beat you. did they need that land you exiled? did you exile a creature? it is resource denial. not denial in a sense that lili does, but in a sense that your opponent has less cards they can kill you with
June 12, 2015 12:47 p.m.
ryanjoha - There are too many questions concerning what you flip off of Ashiok. You don't want questions when it comes to the cards you play, you want consistency. Ashiok is not consistent in what Ashiok will exile, which makes Ashiok much worse than you think Ashiok is.
June 12, 2015 12:49 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #26
No. Liliana of the Veil decreases your opponent's options via stripping their hand (denial), Ashiok changes -- not decreases -- their options at random (not denial). They're two very different things.
Liliana takes away their cards, Ashiok simply changes what the next three on top of their deck are.
June 12, 2015 1:54 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #27
You may also have gotten three completely dead cards that they didn't need, and the next draw they have is awesome.
June 12, 2015 1:59 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #28
Okay. We're getting somewhere. You've convinced me Ashiok isn't as good as I think it is. Lets look at the pro's and cons. correct me if i'm wrong.
Pro's:
Has a chance to take away a game changing card from your opponent
Possibility of reducing the options your opponent has to change the game.
Has the ability to put a creature onto the battlefield for free
Cons:
Completely random
can hit dead cards your opponent doesnt need
matchup dependant
The reason i say reduces the options your opponent has, is because your opponent plays a fixed amount of cards in their deck. if you get rid of one, thats one less card they can change the game with. key word possibility.
Feel free to add more to the pro's and cons. I'm interested in what you guys think.
June 12, 2015 2:22 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #30
How slow? you leave counter magic and removal up during the early game, play ashiok turn 5 or 6, and start exiling. I don't see how that's slow. Can you explain it to me?
June 12, 2015 2:33 p.m.
In Modern, Turn 5 or 6 IS slow. When decks can combo-kill you on turns 3-4, you don't want to rely on your counterspells to win the game. There's a reason control decks aren't very good right now, because there will be a matchup where you will have the wrong cards in your hand. Go look at Gerrard Fabiano's Sultai Deck from when he won the Modern open. There are a grand total of 5 counterspells in the deck: 3 Mana Leak, and 2 Cryptic Command. That is probably the optimal shell for Ashiok in the current metagame.
June 12, 2015 2:44 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #32
I explain in detail it in comment 49. Essentially Ashiok takes a couple turns to be useful, whereas other walkers have utility right away.
June 12, 2015 2:57 p.m.
BloodoftheBloodMoon says... #33
I understand. That article on Gerrard Fabiano is quite interesting. did you read why he chose Ashiok over Lili and Jace? I find it interesting. Maybe have lili's maindeck, and side them out for ashiok in the B/G/x matchup, and against other decks that utilize the graveyard. What do you think?
June 12, 2015 3:03 p.m.
trollslayer says... #34
Pro, if he kills it, they used up burn,(could be to your face or a creature) kill spell,( possibly to a creature instead) or an attack, that could be at your face instead
JWiley129 says... #1
Well, my opinion on Ashiok is that it's meta dependent. For example, Ashiok is bad against Burn, bad against Bogles, bad against Combo, and bad against other linear aggro decks (Infect, Merfolk, etc). It's good against control (like most 'walkers), Abzan/Jund, and other midrange decks. I don't think, that justifies Ashiok being a good maindeck call. But Ashiok is still, as I said above, metagame dependent.
June 11, 2015 4:25 p.m.