"Balancing the format" says WOTC...
Modern forum
Posted on March 24, 2016, 7:18 a.m. by WizardOfTheNorthernCoast
Hello guys :)
So I was just checking the modern meta on MtgTop8 this morning and I saw something that confirmed what I was thinking : WOTC's latest bannings in modern were only made for them to get money. They say they wanted to make the format more "diversified" by removing the overplayed / overpowered Splinter Twin / Amulet Bloom decks (if you didnt know : lol).
They actually wanted to make a sort of deck absolutely broken so that the players buy a shitload of Fat Packs and Display Boxes to get the broken cards. Because Modern is an eternal format and most of good cards are already printed. The fact that pros play these at GPs and stuff also increases the fact that modern players (new or not) will want to do "like their idols" and play the same cards (which happen to be in the latest set MONEY MONEY !).
Out of 1072 decks, 309 are Eldrazi variants. Seriously. That's ridiculous, isn't it? All the other decks are losing popularity... So thats actually a sign that the result of their bannings is the exact opposite of why they said they did them in the first place. Because f*ck logic.
I am absolutely OK with the banning of Summer Bloom because it's broken with the whole Amulet of Vigor / Bouncelands shenanigans. Also, it's a card that "does nothing" on its own while still "doing everything" for the Amulet Bloom deck. So it's not a real threat but gets the insanity started. Therefore, there is no real SB strat aside from counterspells (hello Spell Snare !).
The banning of Splinter Twin, however, is a big fat joke. I've never played the deck but I faced it a lot. It was the oldest archetype in Modern so people had time to find hate cards against it. Leyline of Singularity, Rakdos Charm, Batwing Brume or any Disenchant effect are great answers to a 4 mana card which, BTFW, got reprinted in MM2...
But once again, you guys know that already. The real reason I'm creating this thread is that I want to have your opinion on the format and where you think it's going?
If you ever played Eldrazi, do you enjoy it? Or did you just join the dark side of the force because "if you cant beat them, join them" ?
Do you think WOTC are going to ban Eldrazi Temple soon ? Or another card ? Or they gonna pretend players have to rely on cards like Roast and Hallowed Moonlight to deal with those retarded Eldrazi things ?
I got the feeling that its the whole Mental Misstep / Treasure Cruise thing again. If you wanna play something different, youll have to build your deck around Eldrazi decks in order to remain competitive and keep them at bay a little. Because Eldrazis win every tournament or so. And I hate the situation because I love the format.
Thanks for answering, peace out !
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #3
I actually hope they are going to do something about it. Because I just can't believe WotC's R&D didn't anticipate the T1 Eldrazi Temple / Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Mimic then T2 Reality Smasher sequence. Attack for 10 on T2 with barely no way to stop that... You have to basically 2 for 1 TWICE to stabilize. If players found this out, R&D should have too.
Also, the "when you cast" triggers make it so to say IMPOSSIBLE to interact with the creatures in the first place. Most of the abilities target a player so Leyline of Sanctity actually is a decent way to dodge that, but you still end up stomped by the huge bodies for ridiculous costs (see Reality Smasher's overpowered abilities...)
It looks like they don't learn from their previous mistakes and I still don't think it's a coincidence :)
March 24, 2016 8:43 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #4
You're almost 2 months late to the party with this. But, since I'm here...
They actually wanted to make a sort of deck absolutely broken so that the players buy a shitload of Fat Packs and Display Boxes to get the broken cards. Because Modern is an eternal format and most of good cards are already printed. The fact that pros play these at GPs and stuff also increases the fact that modern players (new or not) will want to do "like their idols" and play the same cards (which happen to be in the latest set MONEY MONEY !).
The first sentence of your paragraph is baseless speculation. While there's some truth that WotC wants to make money, they don't look to Modern for that money. Or, if they do it is only with certain sets (Modern Masters). Your entire point here is baseless and is construing something that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
mathimus55: Wizards banned Twin because they didn't want another modern PT full of Twin decks everywhere.
I agree. Somewhat. The problem is WotC could have picked any other deck and argued the same result. Keep in mind that the diversity of the format was actually quite good, prior to the banning of Twin. Twin simply happened to be at the top, but so was Affinity, with almost equal amounts of meta representation. Instead, they pushed out the deck that forced opponents to interact with one another. Which is somewhat absurd in retrospect.
Players clamor for powerful new cards to be introduced/playable for modern so they pushed the power on eldrazi. But then when the new creatures players demanded start to make new decks then instead of adapting(which isn't impossible against eldrazi, but is incredibly hard) they just want it banned instead.
Again I'm inclined to only partial agree here. The power of the Eldrazi is only being pushed because of pre-existing conditions. Without those conditions the Eldrazi in OGW are underwhelming. The moment we remove the conditions that make these cards playable in Modern then the set will have effectively provided nothing to the format. At least nothing that I am aware of. With bans we swing from one extreme to the next and that's a problem. Modern is a format with an identity crisis and one which WotC is unlikely to solve anytime soon.
March 24, 2016 9:12 a.m.
Yes, WotC likes to make its customers miserable by intentionally printing unbalanced cards. No they don't. As mathimus55 said there wasn't really a way to predict how popular Eldrazi would be. They have said they dont test specifically for modern, but they certainly keep modern in mind when designing cards, but not in the way you think. They dont say "Hm, this card works well with another obscure card that is legal in modern, we should change this while we can," they say "Hm, this card is basically a better version of this card that sees a lot of play in modern, we should tone it down so that deck doesn't overpower the others." They dont anticipate new decks breaking in because, really, that doesn't tend to happen in Modern.
March 24, 2016 9:13 a.m.
ninjaclevs13 says... #6
frusciante7- I agree it's stupid, but how exactly does the t2 Reality Smasher come out? It's five mana, and you only really have 4 "mana" (I'm counting Eye of Ugin as 2 mana)
March 24, 2016 9:15 a.m.
@Frusciante, considering they design and test sets with limited and standard in mind and not modern it is very likely they didn't anticipate that sequence of plays. Or it's even possible that they anticipated it but didn't realize how hard it would be to combat in the meta because they don't test for modern. Regardless, assuming it's something they should have foreseen, in a format they don't significantly test for, just because players found it is ignorant. However, if I was uninformed and didn't understand how things work then I'd probably feel the same way you do.
Also, if you read reality smasher you'll see that it's last ability only counters spells that target it unless they discard. This means abilities on permanents get around this so no discard. That's why in standard (the format they actually test for) things like reflector mage and hidden dragonslayer do a lot to combat it.
And lastly, modern is not an eternal format. It is a non rotating format. Legacy and vintage are eternal formats.
March 24, 2016 9:30 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #9
CanadianShinobi : I'm 2 months late but I don't give a damn. As I said I mainly wanted to have the opinion of more people on the subject (I've read a ton about it already). Now I've got yours. An a new debate is born. See? :)
And since you like to quote people, you didn't answer those questions : "The real reason I'm creating this thread is that I want to have your opinion on the format and where you think it's going? If you ever played Eldrazi, do you enjoy it? Or did you just join the dark side of the force because "if you cant beat them, join them" ?" ;)
ninjaclevs13 forgot to include that good ol' Simian Spirit Guide in there, thanks! :)
kanokarob "Yes, WotC likes to make its customers miserable by intentionally printing unbalanced cards.". I never said that was their intention. Ever. All I said is their first objective is to make money (it's a company you know, stakeholders and stuff...).
You can't deny the fact that Magic is mostly a game of money. You cant have a 15 dollars Restoration Angel or a 10 cents Heliod's Emissary. 4 mana each, both white, but well... So if they print cards that fit so well together that they can own in standard, in modern and be decent in legacy, I kinda think there is a slight lack of balance somewhere, don't you think? :)
March 24, 2016 9:55 a.m.
I don't think that they did this in order to make money. Historically, a fiasco like this ends up costing WotC money by decreasing tournament attendance and eroding customer confidence. Do not ascribe to malice what can just as easily be ascribed to incompetence. I think this was just something that bit them on the backside because they don't test Modern in any truly serious capacity, and that's something that has to change.
Regarding the Eldrazi-dominated format... to be honest, it's kind of a drag if you run into 2-3 rounds in a row (since even the decks that have a fighting chance against them can't fend off the nuthands), but overall it led to some interesting developments that I'm hoping are generally applicable enough to stick around (I really like the Abzan combo variants that sprouted up to fight it, and Allies feels like a real deck in most metagames).
March 24, 2016 10:58 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #11
Thanks rothgar13, that were some constructive words you threw out there.
On a completely different topic, I'm attending 2 modern events this week-end and I'm still debating over playing Esper Control (Not draw-go, I've got Lingering Souls and Wall of Denial in there) or a more classic Jeskai Control deck. What you guys think has the most chance to get it done vs Eldrazi? I know this is a terrible match up anyway but Jeskai's burn spells don't seem to be as good as Esper's spot removal vs Eldrazi. On the other hand it's still a viable plan if you need to win an other way :)
Really can't make up my mind, any suggestion would be appreciated :)
March 24, 2016 11:15 a.m.
Torpor Orb for eldrazi & Grafdigger's Cage for coco & company decks.
March 24, 2016 11:26 a.m.
I'd go Esper. Assuming you have Verdicts, Paths, and Wraths, like the Esper Controller at my locals.
March 24, 2016 11:27 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #14
I do. It's basically a UW with a splash of black for Lingering Souls, Murderous Cut and a playset of Esper Charm. I've also several answers in the side such as Appetite for Brains for eldrazi / tron and more removal in the form of Doom Blade vs eldrazi, Zoo and affinity mainly.
Torpor Orb is indeed a must vs Kiki - Chord - Allies
I will update the version I have on here and post it to you ;)
Thanks for the advice so far lads!
March 24, 2016 11:44 a.m.
tl;dr
Before you dismiss me as a salty eldrazi player, know I love modern and play Bogles and Chord. I'm angry too. That being said...
I'm so tired of people whining about this. WOTC has acknowledged it is a problem, and I would put money on a ban next April. People need to move on or just wait a few more weeks for it to get banned.
March 24, 2016 11:54 a.m.
Monsmtg - Being an Eldrazi player isn't why I'll dismiss you.
I'll dismiss you for commenting on a post you barely read.
March 24, 2016 12:06 p.m.
@rothgar13 The problem with testing new sets for modern interactions is the size of the card pool available to the modern format. The would literally have to test half the cards in Magic's history to see if any old/current/new decks may end up as breaking the format rules. Realistically this is just not a feasible option when they have to do extensive testing in standard and limited as well (the two formats most effected by new sets). That's why they've stated before that it's just easier and makes more sense for them to assess the handful of cards that end up seeing play in modern from a new set after it's been released and then use the ban list as a way of controlling problems that may occur. Sure it'd be nice if they could spend the amount of time necessary to fully test things out in modern, but that would severely lengthen the amount of time it takes to fully design a set. Which means new sets won't be available at the same rate they currently are, which means fewer new sets. Fewer new sets would drastically effect standard (the most played format in existence) as cards/decks/archetypes would stick around longer because there would be less new stuff to either hate out preexisting decks or for new decks to form that can compete with the preexisting top decks. Think of how RTR-THS standard was, and then imagine standard was always made up of only 2-3 decks. That would make the most played format they have constantly boring and stale as well as drastically drive up the price of the 10-15 cards that ended up as the format staples each rotation.
I will say that like you, I do like that the eldrazi decks have forced people to actually brew. 99 times out of 100, people are usually just looking at what's currently being played and trying to tweak those decks. They rationalize it as, these must be the best cards that's why these are the decks being played. So instead of new decks popping up to combat problems, everyone is just jumping from one bandwagon to the next. Which I believe is what causes a lot of the problems modern has. Whenever there is a consensus top tier deck, instead of building decks to combat it the masses will flock to it instead. A sort of, if you can't beat them join them mentality, but without the trying to beat them part and jumping straight into joining them. This means anytime a deck puts up fairly consistent results it's going to become a large portion of the meta. Consequently, this means the deck starts to put up even more good results because there are fewer other decks to compete against and more people will jump on the bandwagon further skewing the percentage of the meta that single deck makes up. As this happens, we'll continue to see bans like we did with Pod and Twin. It's not that Pod and Twin were literally unbeatable, it was just hard. So instead of doing something hard to compete against them, people naturally just took the easy way and started playing the decks. Which, as we've seen, lead to large percentages of the meta being made up of those decks. As I said before, if they have less decks to compete against while personally making up a large portion of the field themselves, naturally that means the decks would show up more often at the top. When this happens over the course of a year, that's when wizards has to step in and take action. So while it is nice to see a new deck in modern, especially one that has forced the modern community to think outside what they've always done. It's a shame that it ended up being a deck like this where it's obvious immediate action will have to be taken, because now the modern community is just going to revert back to doing the same old stuff with the same old decks. Till one becomes the consensus "best deck" and they all flock to that one forcing Wizards to take action again.
March 24, 2016 12:09 p.m.
TMBRLZ I have since read it and I stand by my statement.
frusciante7, two more things, WOTC does not play test for modern. Second of all, the busted cards in eldrazi are the lands, not the creatures, the deck is trash without it's mana base, so it's dumb to say that WOTC tried to create a busted deck and did so only with the new set.
Anyway, I came off as quite crass in my comment and would like to apologise. I mean only to get my point across and not to be mean.
March 24, 2016 12:14 p.m.
Last month Aaron Forsythe said Eldrazi was going to get nerfed but they would not cripple the deck. Honestly, banning Eldrazi Mimic is the best way to do this. It still allows Eldrazi the T4 win, but stops the nut draw of 3-4 mimic on T1 with T2 TKS and GG with T3 Smasher. Either way, when SOI releases, they are updating the ban list. I would love to see a few cards come off the list honestly.
Even though Eldrazi are dominating the format, it's still healthy. There are a good number of other decks putting up strong top 8 finishes. With an Eldrazi nerf, I think the format will be great.
March 24, 2016 12:16 p.m.
@abenz419: I agree with your point regarding extensive testing of Modern. The card pool is too large, and the interactions too intricate to truly catch everything. But right now they're at the other extreme, which is to completely ignore it and just print whatever feels right in Standard/Limited/Commander. A very cursory test of the Eldrazi lands with the big colorless creatures would have probably allowed them to reach the conclusion that the deck was too potent. I'm not saying they should dig as deep as they do for Standard, but slap a couple of brews together and test them during lunch break or something. It will stop the obviously-way-too-strong stuff like this, while keeping the potent-and-interesting stuff, because you have to work a bit harder for it.
The brewing point is something I will disagree with. That may be true in a given LGS meta or in a site like this one (which, no offense to anyone, has a less experienced player base), but the more established sites like MTGSalvation have people brewing all the darn time. The issue with Pod and Twin wasn't that it was hard to beat them - plenty of meta decks had good matchups against them. It's that they pushed the entire meta into "account for me, or your deck will not succeed" mode. They did so to a much lesser degree than Eldrazi did, of course, but they did. Furthermore, they had the design space issue that if you tried to print or unban anything cool in their colors, you ran the risk of making them too good for the format. Those decks squashed innumerable numbers of the brews you say people gave up on - the ones that successfully fought them and hung in against other decks in the metagame became part of the metagame themselves. Modern actually has LESS of a bandwagon issue than Standard or even Legacy (check out the SCG in Philadelphia if you don't believe that - whole bunch of Eldrazi out of nowhere because a few pros put up articles/videos on them, even though they knew that Legacy Grixis Delver/Miracles/etc. are much better suited to handling them than anything in Modern is).
@DrFunk27: I disagree with almost every point here. The lands are 100% of the problem with Eldrazi. If they want to "fix" them, they'll ban 1 (which one they should ban is a matter that's up for debate). If they want to banish the deck from the format, they'll ban them both. Messing with the creature base might change the nature of the deck, but unless they rip out all of the relevant pieces (so Eldrazi Mimic, Endless One, Reality Smasher, and Thought-Knot Seer), the issue will persist (Mimic would just get replaced with Matter Reshaper, which can still stonewall aggro and generate value, even if it's not as explosive, and multiple T1 Endless Ones for x=2 is still a problem).
March 24, 2016 12:45 p.m. Edited.
I have actually enjoyed still winning events with non Eldrazi decks in the Eldrazi meta. Choosing packs over store credit, opening Thought-knot seers and such and then selling/trading them for good value. The couple expeditions, kalitas and chandra/nissa were nice as well.
I do not think they banned twin and bloom to increase sales of the new sets. Twin is probably still a favorable matchup for Eldrazi, bloom, maybe not, but there is actually a "better" version of amulet titan now, it's just even more difficult to play correctly.
The other day I beat a UW Eldrazi player with Kiki-Chord and he was salty about me "casting chord 7 times" which was an exaggeration, but I'm like dude, that's what this deck does. Your deck drops a bunch of free creatures, really nothing to complain about.
March 24, 2016 12:47 p.m.
Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mention "Extra Turns" apparently makes Eldrazi cry. That deck is not fun to play against, and doesn't look too fun to play either, but seems like a winning option against any deck really.
March 24, 2016 12:49 p.m.
rothgar13 I didn't mention the lands because that's obviously what people are calling for a ban, so I didn't think it needed to be said. However, they aren't going to banish the deck, as they've already stated. You're also missing the point that Wizards is ok with it being a consistent T4 deck. That's the nature of Modern. So Matter reshaper would be fine because without Mimic it takes it from a T3 to a T4 deck no matter what. Losing Mimic is a huge deal. Are there replacements? Yeah, but none that will enable T3 wins.
Secondly, Eye of Ugin is obviously an issue, but it's legendary so they can only have 1 in play. This is already a set back and I think it's fine. If I were to choose a land it has to be Eldrazi Temple. Wizards has historically banned ALL sol lands in Modern, and Temple was a non issue...until Oaths released. Now they have a definite reason to ban it, and I think they can without destroying the deck.
March 24, 2016 1:08 p.m. Edited.
I just want to point out that it is not the colorless version that has taken over the format. It is the color varients that rely on the Eye of Ugin.
March 24, 2016 1:28 p.m.
addaff That's true. It will be a tough call then. I don't think you can ban both lands without completely destroying the deck.
March 24, 2016 1:30 p.m.
All of the variants are anchored by colorless creatures, though. The reason why they reach for pieces in 
, 
, 
, and/or 
is to either solve problem cards that came up after they had taken over the format, or to beat the mirror. The deck is a whole lot less problematic without the Big 4 that I mentioned above.
March 24, 2016 1:34 p.m.
You ban the eye and leave them the temple. This requires them to tap the land and thus slowing the deck down, because they can't play multiple creatures. I still don't know why people don't use Torpor Orb vs. the color variants.
March 24, 2016 1:37 p.m.
addaff I SB 2-3 orbs now when playing in tournaments. It's awesome against eldrazi.
March 24, 2016 1:45 p.m.
Torpor Orb is solid tech, but you have to pair it with either sweepers or a clock of your own to have a hope of beating them, and that's what a lot of decks struggle with (since you just spent your T2 on defense). And their nuthand on the play either takes the Orb away from you, or gets them too far ahead before it can hit the field. In other words, it's an incomplete solution.
March 24, 2016 1:49 p.m. Edited.
rothgar13 T1 Thoughtseize taking Seer T2 Orb has done pretty well for me personally.
March 24, 2016 1:51 p.m.
That sounds great, but is it consistent? I'm guessing not, because it would have topped some tournaments if it was. The problem is not that solutions don't exist - it's that the Eldrazi are more consistent, and can find a way to beat you even if you disrupt them once or twice. There was a Jund deck that topped an SCG Modern Classic last month by loading up on sweepers and featuring Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (a card that I'm glad everyone agrees is as good as I thought it was coming in), but Jund as a whole is down, because unless you get that just-right hand, you're toast. Now that may feel a bit negative, but I think that disparaging people because "they didn't think of X tech" is naive at this point. We've tried everything - they're too good. Let's curb the madness and move on.
March 24, 2016 2:01 p.m. Edited.
The fact that there's so much direct hate for basically everything from artifacts, to non basic lands, to certain colors, and even just plain old islands, but nothing really for plain colorless creatures is a huge design flaw. Eldrazi have to just be killed by "fair" things for the most part.
March 24, 2016 2:21 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #33
Maro has a great saying about designing powerful cards that he brings up all the time on his Drive to Work podcast. Something along the lines of "if you're not having cards banned you're not trying hard enough." Sure they make a card like Treasure Cruise or whatever you want to use in this example that is crazy powerful and warps the format, but at least they are trying to make new and powerful effects. Would you rather have the alternative with no new cards and the format literally never changes? I'll take the ebb and flow every day because Wizards is able to at least fix mistakes and ban what needs to be rather than never making a fun card again.
Also, in nearly every interview/post about the modern format current and past WotC employees specifically state that cards aren't designed with modern in mind 90% of the time. They focus on standard and limited. If a card breaks through beyond that is great. Gerry Thompson had a great discussion on the Masters of Modern podcast a few weeks ago about how if they are really pushing something they might have a couple people test it in a deck and it's it's too nutty they'll change it(he uses Soulflayer as a specific example).
CanadianShinobi if you look at the past PT's there was a large percentage of Twin vs. the field, including Affinity. I agree that the larger metagame %'s are less drastic, but specifically for the PT they were probably expecting the trend of pro's generally resorting to Splinter Twin for that specific tournament, then returning to Affinity or whatever else they were playing. I think this was just a preemptive move to make sure that trend didn't happen again. I wouldn't be surprised if Twin was unbanned(followed by an equal if not greater outcry about the card).
I also agree with you that the creatures aren't the problem, it is completely the Temple/Eye combo that makes the deck degenerate. You can see how WotC is trying to shift modern to be a bit more like Standard in terms of focusing more on creatures than spells and combos. I think with only 1 of the eldrazi lands the deck will be viable still but not the overwhelming favorite that it is now. That's just my opinion though having not played the deck. Several of my buddies who have 5-0'd MTGO leagues and 2 who both top 32'd GP Detroit w/ UW Eldrazi maintain that keeping Eye is the right move and getting rid of Temple since that takes away the T2 Seer which is the most crippling play. There are many decks that can handle several 2/1's on turn 1, but it's the explosive follow up and disruption built in that makes the deck unfair. Either way I wouldn't be surprised with any banning regarding the deck.
March 24, 2016 2:45 p.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #34
I love how no one wanted to talk about the subject and yet we end up with 30+ replies in a day. Anyways, thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts on this. Bannings will (have to) happen but we don't know when yet.
One last thing : they don't playtest new sets for modern. Ok, I get it and I agree it's impossible for them to seize all the crazy interactions with such a card pool. But still, 80% of the deck is Standard. Add Eye of Ugin (which specifically says "ELDARZI SPELLS" ffs), some good removal (path / dismember) and good discard and you're good to go. The main deck is broken by nature, adding older cards from the modern format didn't actually make it THAT MUCH more insane (since everyone seems to agree that Temple and Mimic are the real deal).
I guess I'll go with Esper this week end and see how it goes. I'll let you guys know if you want ;)
March 24, 2016 3:11 p.m.
WOTC should have fixed this sooner with an emergency banning. I'm just not playing modern until after this Eldrazi problem is fixed, why lose $10 so the broken decks can scoop up the store credit winnings.
mathimus55 says... #2
Wizards has said through several different people and several outlets they know Eldrazi is a problem and are going to do something about it. This is nothing new. There are also countless other threads about this same topic. Eldrazi will have something banned out(what gets banned is another topic altogether) and something else might come in. Luckily all you have to do is wait another few weeks and it will be fixed as far as eldrazi goes.
Wizards banned Twin because they didn't want another modern PT full of Twin decks everywhere. It makes for bad tv seeing the exact same thing over and over again, which would have been pro players trying to minimize variance and play the most consistent and reliable deck in the format, aka Twin. What they didn't anticipate is how overwhelming the eldrazi decks would be, which is impossible to predict. Players clamor for powerful new cards to be introduced/playable for modern so they pushed the power on eldrazi. But then when the new creatures players demanded start to make new decks then instead of adapting(which isn't impossible against eldrazi, but is incredibly hard) they just want it banned instead. WotC didn't ban Splinter Twin because it dominated the FNM's and GP's, they banned it because it would make for a bad pro tour. They just couldn't predict exactly how overwhelmingly powerful and dominant a brand new deck to the format would be. Nobody could.
TL:DR Wizards is going to fix eldrazi when they are able. Which is a couple weeks. No news was broken here
March 24, 2016 8:09 a.m.