Bringing 8rack Home
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 4, 2015, 3:50 a.m. by GoofyFoot
ChiefBell, Ohthenoises, and anyone else that has an interest in this archetype.
I've been scratching my head for the past week and a half, looking at That Lovin' Feeling, and wondering "what's missing here?". Am I the only one who feels like 8rack is just 1 card away from being solid? I can't think of what card would sell the deck home though. I can think of plenty of cards that I would love to see reprinted into modern that would make this deck rock solid (Tangle Wire is a big one, how I would love that in modern!!!), but I just can't think seem to put my finger on the missing piece. What are people's thought's on this?
This isn't intended as a deck help thread, I only put my list on for reference to what I'm currently running. It's meant to be more of an archetype improvement thread.
@JexInfinite, I kind of do, but It's just so damn expensive...... I feel like you'd get more mileage out of Waste Not....
February 4, 2015 3:58 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #4
Not really. Waste Not requires you to continuously make them discard to gain value, but Empty the Pits can be played once you burn out and are in topdeck mode to make for an exciting turn around.
February 4, 2015 4 a.m.
I've seen most 8 rack decks play about 20 lands. Empty the pits is too expensive. Pack rat has worked well for me. Especially against the white leyline because all my thoughtseizes become rats!
February 4, 2015 4:45 a.m.
@ChiefBell there inlies my issue with Pack Rat: Ensnaring Bridge. they non-bo against each other, and I like bridge much more than i like rat. How do you deal with the interaction?
February 4, 2015 5:02 a.m.
And they actually sort of don't nonbo. In the match ups where you can't use all your discard you have much more control over how you use your cards because you can't just cast all your discard straight away. The problem in those situations isn't that you won't have cards in hand - it's that you won't be able to get rid of them!
February 4, 2015 5:04 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #9
Bridge and Pack Rat is still good against stuff like Twin. Discard your crap at instant speed after they try to combo off. They'll die eventually to The Rack.
February 4, 2015 6:11 a.m.
I'm curious about Tasigur, the Golden Fang , Tombstalker, Gurmag Angler but I'm not sure.
February 4, 2015 11:11 a.m.
Tasigur's Cruelty had me giddy as an anti leyline card.
February 4, 2015 11:11 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #12
I'd like to point out the combo of Rat/Bridge. What makes it silly is you can grow rats under a bridge no problem and then when they kill your bridge you can block for favor and then swing back for lethal.
Tasigur's Cruelty I believe should be a 3x along with the 4x Wrench Mind. Any modern legal Hymn to Tourach that you can cram in is probably going to be good if you can cast it for 2 or less.
February 4, 2015 2:03 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #13
Drop Smallpox. Running 20 lands it'll do u far more harm then good. I would not run Pox in any modern deck without at least 24 lands period.
As for pimping out ur deck I really like Spellskite & Damnation. U would need 24 lands again for Damnation or could use Drown in Sorrow.
February 5, 2015 7:40 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #14
You can run Pox with 20 lands if you aren't an idiot about it.
Just don't pox with 3 lands unless you have a followup. It's not that hard.
February 5, 2015 7:43 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #15
I prefer Wrench Mind and Blightning in my discard. The 2 for 1s can often be more effective than the targeted discard.
Scepter of Fugue is a thing since u were asking for just 1 card.
February 5, 2015 7:46 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #16
@OTN 8rack handles Poxing fairly well because it doesn't set the deck back as far as resources. I always side out Smallpox vs 8rack because it does nothing in the match. I play Pox the same way needing to get Lilly online before Poxing but a T4 Pox is not nearly as hard hitting as a T2 Pox & if u loose the ability to T2 Pox why even bother? OTN I respect u and ur opinion and know your quite knowledgable so if I'm wrong tell me. I always found Pox to get worse and worse as the game goes on without Abyssal Persecutor or something to add value late game.
February 5, 2015 7:59 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #17
See, there's your problem. You are trying to run 4 drops and increasing the amount of 3 drops. What makes 8rack good is the low curve. The lower the better.
I have 8 3drops in my deck. Total. That's as high as my curve goes, Tasigur's Cruelty is the only exception but it always gets cast for 1-2 and Pox feeds it.
Smallpox is about getting out threats and then not caring about your lands because everything in your deck is 3 or less. By not caring about your lands you can deny your opponent the resources they need to cast their topdecked stuff. That way you can strip them.
To be honest 8 rack requires an artful player. If you can't plan out turns in advance you are kinda dead.
February 5, 2015 8:09 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #18
Try it with 24 lands & Damnation it fixes so many of the decks issues.
Ive tried everything in 8rack. Waste Not, Liliana's Caress Dash Hopes Abrupt Decay Deathrite Shaman Treetop Village Bitterblossom Norn's Annex Syphon Life Dream Salvage Academy Ruins Necrogen Mists (in addition to Lilly) that discard elf of gilt leaf. Smallpox & Fulminator Mage.
IMO The best additions u can make to the deck are Blightning Damnation Bitterblossom (another AD/Disenchant target that's a wincon itself) and Dash Hopes.
8racks easy to play the deck itself is just inconsistent and sucks. U don't loose cause u picked the wrong thing from the opponents hand. U loose cause u top decked 3 Thoughtseize in a row when u really just need an Ensnaring Bridge to seal the deal.
February 5, 2015 9:54 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #19
Adding 4 drops makes the deck multiple magnitudes of worse. That's the last I'll say on that subject.
February 5, 2015 9:58 a.m.
I'm with ohthenoises. even hesitant to add multiple 3 drops
February 5, 2015 10 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #21
Funny... http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7187&d=241196&f=MO that's also the highest I've ever seen an 8rack deck place ever.
February 5, 2015 10:08 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #22
Ok, high land count. But wait........ OH MY GOD NO 4 DROPS!
That deck is what's referred to as "reactive" 8 rack.
That was also made for a faster meta than we are looking forward to.
February 5, 2015 10:12 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #23
24 lands, bitterblossom, damnation. That's the last thing I'll say on the subject since ur choosing to be an ass instead of offer insight.
February 5, 2015 10:13 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #24
Actually, looking again they only have 4 mainboard 3 drops, 13 2 drops, and 19 1 drops. That's by far less than I have.
February 5, 2015 10:14 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #25
That deck runs Damnation only 4 drop I suggested.
February 5, 2015 10:14 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #26
I offered my insight, you started to be an ass with the "Funny..." comment so I was replying in kind.
You are stating false information. 4 mana drops is too much for 8rack. Period. I tried to say as much before but you kept arguing the point.
February 5, 2015 10:15 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #27
Also I wasn't intentionally attacking u or ur deck but making comments about Smallpox and 8rack as a whole. I have a lot of experience with the archetype but don't play it because if u own the important pieces u could already be playing something better...
February 5, 2015 10:19 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #28
I have a ton of experience with it as well. I did months of testing with the Waste Not variant and have switched to what I'm playing currently. I play this deck religiously and know it inside and out.
This meta that we are entering will be much slower. B/G/X will be rampant. Slow matches are 8 rack's bread and butter and will eat "fair" decks alive. The only thing that B/G/X has that worries me is Abrupt Decay and proper sideboarding can handle that.
February 5, 2015 10:23 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #29
I suggested appropriate mana... If ur running 20-22 lands then yes a 4 drop is too high. ..but I also suggested Drown in Sorrow as a replacement for 22 lands which works fine. In almost any 8rack match u have to reach 3 lands for Lilly or a bridge. Blightning is good cause it empties their hand faster than Lilly which is what u want at that point of the game.
February 5, 2015 10:24 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #30
Abrupt Decay is nothing u have 12 high potential targets for it and a deck can only pack 4 copies (this is what makes Spellskite good in 8rack)
Fear Maelstrom Pulse. If u get multiple racks or afflictions down its a last hope to sway the game.
February 5, 2015 10:29 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #31
I'm just going to stop responding..... Hate to pull a zandl here but I'm just going to unsub.
February 5, 2015 10:45 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #33
Ok, that I had to come back for.
What the hell is your problem? Like seriously? ChiefBell and I stated our thoughts and you came in and just kept going "NUH UH!". Then you came in and got nasty, so I replied in kind.
Does the DRS ban STILL have you this salty that you borderline harass people on this site? Jesus man.
You even admitted that you don't play the deck. If you don't play it how the hell can you tell what's good in it? I've been PLAYING this thing for about 8 months, actively playing in tournaments and events. I'm giving you data coming from ACTUAL play rather than hypothetical "this seems good".
If you EVER expect people on this site to treat you with any kind of respect you should probably show some to people that you meet on here unlike what you showed to ChiefBell and I.
I am now done with this thread.
February 5, 2015 10:57 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #34
@Ohthenoises "What the hell is your problem? Like seriously? ChiefBell and I stated our thoughts and you came in and just kept going "NUH UH!""
That sounds more like what you did. He came in and stated his thoughts: "Drop Smallpox. Running 20 lands it'll do u far more harm then good. I would not run Pox in any modern deck without at least 24 lands period."
You replied: "You can run Pox with 20 lands if you aren't an idiot about it."
I don't know, but that sounds a bit more like "NUH-UH!" to me.
February 5, 2015 11:17 a.m.
There was an 8 rack deck that top 8 ed the other day. Reactive Rakdos 8 rack running Blightning. Higher average cmc than I would go for, still no 4 drops in the main board though. I can see that example you linked has a copy of damnation in the sideboard. To be honest, I'm not even sure why it's there because if you're making someone discard all their cards then surely you won't have to kill multiple creatures, just one or two. If it's for like obstinate baloth or something then dismember would do it better.
4 drops in 8 rack make me uncomfortable. If you up the land count then you end up top decking land when you want to top deck more spells - that's less than ideal. If you don't up your land count then you wont be able to play the 4 drop at all. Catch 22 situation. Damned if you, damned if you don't.
February 5, 2015 11:21 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #36
Think what you want. I wasn't calling out his intelligence. I was simply stating that if the pilot was intelligent the difference between 21-24 lands is negligible.
As I said, think what you want. I'm done with this thread. Too much salt for me.
February 5, 2015 11:21 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #37
Go get some rest, laid, food, high, whatever and come back. I doubt ChiefBell took me saying "funny" as offensive. For the record while I may not agree with him on every point I do look at him as a fellow competitive Golgari player with much respect and appreciation for his contributions to this community and the magic community. Even u, I dunno why you're on a rag right now but I didn't want to particularly argue with u. You've helped me in the past and I didn't forget that.
February 5, 2015 11:52 a.m.
I stopped taking you seriously
"I dunno why you're on a rag right now but" <--- there.
February 8, 2015 8:09 p.m.
Well, that was hilarious. Ohthenoises, sorry to bring you back in.
I hate to drop in late to beat this dead horse, but the point bears mentioning. Plus dammit, I started this thread, and I'll bloody well finish it.
I've been running 8rack literally months since modern got announced. I, like most other people that have owned the deck, have gone through every single discard spell, every DECENT damage output the deck has to offer, and almost every different land combination you can get. I've tried all 5 colors at different stages of the metas, and am currently on 3 colors.
My roommate is (was....) an impressive pod player, and while he never was able to go to a GP with it, he would consistently top 4 our Modern nights at our LGS. I usually don't do that well, but I end up somewhere around even (there's a lot of burn at my store, which any 8rack player will tell you is our worst matchup).
One week, we decided to switch decks. He took my list how I would play it, and vice versa. After 5 rounds, you want to know what our standings were? Both 0-5. Do you know why? BECAUSE IF YOU HAVEN'T PILOTED THE DECK, YOU HAVEN'T GOT A FUCKING CLUE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. We have lived together for almost a year, gone to the same LGS for the same amount of time, and been deck testers together even longer than that. I can tell you off memory the generic decklist of affinity, but that doesn't mean shit if I don't know how to pilot it.
8rack is optimal on 20~ lands. why? the same reason Delver was optimal on 20 lands: every spell counts. It's a deck that needs to do something every turn or it falls flat on it's face, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Damnation is simply too expensive beyond maybe a 1-of, and that's stretching it. If you have to cast Damnation anyways, you're doing it wrong. you should be able to keep creatures off the board, or make the ones that do hang around completely useless.
Bitterblossom is actually ok, but it's simply too slow. it also proliferates the biggest problem 8rack has: losing life. Your life total, while expendable, is incredibly valuable in this deck. You have to make every point count, which is why burn is such a hard matchup.
If you have the parts, you should build it, then try it at an FNM. Throw Damnation, Bitterblossom, and 24 lands in, and tell me how you do. it's just not functional.
I think i'm rambling now, but It annoys me when people discuss modern like they know everything. someone once told me "the most important thing you can do to improve your game in modern is understand your opponent's deck better than yours." This quote is multiplied ten fold when playing 8rack, because your job is to dismantle their plan. I try and play as closely to this quote as I can, and I think anyone else who actually plays 8rack would agree with me.
February 8, 2015 8:54 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #40
GoofyFoot Hammer -> Nail. I'll be checking your deck in a bit.
Posting and unsubbing again.
February 8, 2015 9:04 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #41
I actually run both 4x Damnation & 4x Bitterblossom in my main deck's 75. Except 25 lands, I also run Smallpox and know what I'm talking about. I speak from practice not theory. Also I don't think 8rack has the right to complain about speed.
February 8, 2015 9:17 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #42
Also just to bring it up the stock list came from a guy who threw the deck in the grave when Delver & cruise burn were a thing all he had to do is add some Bojuka Bogs.
February 8, 2015 9:20 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #43
1 last thing seasoned 8rack player who claims Burn is 1 of the hardest match ups. How the hell do u loose they dump half their hand for u & u should have Spellskite in ur 75. That's IMO the easiest match for 8rack.
February 8, 2015 9:55 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #44
Not like Damnation answers a certain little enchantment creature without pinging u xD
February 8, 2015 10:01 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #45
I got an idea... Let's use less than optimal tools to make a deck that can take longer than 10 turns to kill & discard all of our extra lands to Raven's Crime hoping they don't throw away a Vengevine instead of playing them and more optimal 2 for 1s. ...(cause 4 lands is too much for a deck that takes days to win and has some of the worst top decks in modern) that sounds like a winning recipe!
February 8, 2015 10:08 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #46
Now I know I'm being an arse. But come on tell me more about the deck.
February 8, 2015 10:09 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #47
Btw again about ur delver & burn land count comparisons. Those decks can win by t4 and only need 2 lands to be optimal. 8rack fits neither of that criteria.
February 9, 2015 12:18 a.m.
Congratulations, APPLE01DOJ, the Thread is yours. Run your victory lap. Your gentle and polite demeanor, obvious understanding of the deck, and your graceful ability to contradict yourself multiple times (seriously, look at every single post you reference Smallpox in) clearly surpasses everyone's ability to argue with you. Here are the keys to the pad. Have fun with the rest of your high-horsed brethren.
February 9, 2015 5:54 a.m.
So if we ignore the ranting and such.
What are you guys thoughts on 8rack as a mono-black control deck ignoring the rack/afliction and adding in stuff like Empty the Pits, Pack Rat, Abyssal Persecutor, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, ect to be your kill. And then top it off with some spot removal? I get that it's starting to resemble a rock deck, but if your ignoring the goyfs for a second I don't know if you really want/need the green in there. Abrupt Decay is a great card, but with the new meta emerging it feels like it's less important and you will need more removal that can deal with cmc4+ targets.
February 9, 2015 7:12 a.m.
Pack rat is a decent option in 8rack lists anyway.
To be honest - 8rack is designed to be fairly fast and aggressive. It wants to attack the hand quickly to stop the opponent from landing threats. It wants to use all of its mana to stop the opponent casting things. The problem with running creatures is that you're wasting mana on a card that DOESN'T force the opponent to discard. Tasigur seems like a fantastic choice because he dodges a fair amount of removal and lets you get cards back to hand, however Pack Rat is probably better because it dodges literally everything except sweepers (if targeted by Path to Exile you can just clone him in response, for example).
I think that creatures have a place in 8rack but they shouldn't be a priority simply because they stop the deck doing what the deck wants to do. Shrieking Affliction and The Rack are super important win conditions not only because they happen to synergise with the strategy but also because they cost 1 mana and are super hard to remove with conventional removal spells. Therefore they're the perfect wincons for the deck.
By the way, Abrupt Decay is still probably the best removal spell in the format because all abzan decks are loading up on cmc 1-3 cards, and so are all twin decks, etc. etc. I would recommend going for Path to Exile right now though just because Siege Rhino.
JexInfinite says... #2
I like Empty the Pits as an alternative win-con.
February 4, 2015 3:53 a.m.