Burning Stuff
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 20, 2015, 11:06 p.m. by Dalektable
So, burn in the current metagame. What are your thoughts? Clearly at the pro tour the deck shined, placing a couple slots in the top 8 and running rampant behind Abzan. However, will the deck remain well positioned? I am in a position where I could build the deck, so I am at a crossroads. My options are Burn and BW Tokens, and though I know burn may be a stronger deck overall I feel like Tokens in the long haul will always be a fairly decent deck choice, where as burn could fall out of favor. Regardless, what are your thoughts on the matter? Furthermore, if any experts with the deck could lend any advice as to how to run the deck, specific match-ups / intricacies I'd love to hear them.
InnerFlame says... #3
I am far from an expert, and a little bit bias as I play burn....but I would 100 percent build burn. Burn has always been there, it's just it took these past few years for it to jump from tier 1 to tier 2. Burn is a very straight forward deck that makes your opponent keep speed with you, not necessarily the other way around. An argument could be made for control decks, but even then, you're dictating what they spend counters on and how many counters they need...not to mention the card matchups that can greatly give you the favor. What I'm getting at is burn has a low curve and cards available to them to solve any solution. BW tokens has a slightly higher curve and tends to be situational at times. I never go into a game thinking, "wow, I'm going to get destroyed." It just always has the potential.
On a side note, I play burn and my best buddy plays BW Tokens. I usually do better with the local meta in our area than he does.
February 21, 2015 1 a.m.
julianjmoss says... #4
Burn will always be prevalent, it has shown to be aggressive enough to even beat heavy life gain decks, holding its own vs multiple kitchen finks and soul sisters, the addition of eidelon of the great revel really helped. While there is a "stock list". The deck is a lot more nuanced than people give it credit for and I would recommend trying it out
February 21, 2015 1:16 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #5
Nah, burn is kinda bad now that the meta is sorting itself out. Burn is always good to take into a new meta, but once people know it's still a big thing, they sideboard more against it.
February 21, 2015 1:55 a.m.
Abzan is the biggest deck in modern and all of its good sideboard cards get blown out by burn's sideboard cards
February 21, 2015 1:58 a.m.
I dont feel that tokens are a way to go ever, it gets its ass handed to it by burn...
February 21, 2015 2:17 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #8
Not necessarily, Kor Firewalker, Auriok Champion etc.
Burn is similar to a combo deck, in the sense that it gets easily hated out.
Go tokens, Burn in my experience/opinion gets very boring very quick.
February 21, 2015 2:21 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #9
Red Deck Wins/Burn is an extremely solid deck which is consistent, and if piloted correctly, can post results. I would put it leagues above tokens.
I've played against Gruul Tron, Affinity, Jeskai Control, Living End, Gruul Aggro, Izzet Twin, Orzhov Tokens, and a few home brews. Tron, Jeskai Control, and Affinity were all difficult matchups, with great pilots behind the decks. Blood Moon shone in all but Affinity. It also shines against G/B/x decks, Scapeshift, and Bloom Titan. Shrine of Burning Rage looks to do well against control. Torpor Orb shuts down Twin, Primeval Titan, and Siege Rhino. Destructive Revelry in the side helps with Affinity and Leyline of Sanctity. Forked Bolt main also helps with Robots.
As far as piloting the deck, hold onto instants, especially Skullcrack and Flames of the Blood Hand. Play the crap out of the deck against other good players, to get better.
February 21, 2015 2:36 a.m.
Although I think burn is probably the better deck at the moment, I agree with bijschjdbcd that Burn gets old rather quickly. If it were me, I'd play Tokens because I play more for enjoyment rather than win percentage.
February 21, 2015 2:39 a.m.
If you want to play a fun deck then BW tokens is very far from where you want to be. Almost as linear as burn
February 21, 2015 3:28 a.m.
Burn also ports over into Legacy and Vintage. Yeah, you have to start picking up cards like Wasteland. But, the list shares an overwhelming amount of its cards across different formats.
As others have said, it also has performances. Burn has so much redundancy it's an incredibly consistent deck. Tokens can run into the problem of drawing too many anthems and not enough tokens. Or, it draws too many token generators and not enough anthems.
It also scales better with a larger budget. With Tokens, your major buys are Marsh Flats. With Burn, you're looking at more sideboard options and more colors. Or just playing Blood Moon and winning a stupid amount of games by default. It actually feels like your time, money, and effort pays off because you can see obvious improvements. With Tokens, that's not necessarily the case.
February 21, 2015 5:01 a.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #14
imo get both, burn and tokens. you know you want it and buying food and clothes etc is overrated.
February 21, 2015 6:21 a.m.
Dalektable says... #15
Whoa, guys, I'm pretty sure PepsiAddicted is a genius. I should just start selling off all the things I need for survival, then I can have all the sweet modern decks I want! Here I come Tarno-Twin!
But in all seriousness, this is an interesting argument. First off, I'd like to say for the majority B/W Tokens is not given enough credit. I have done very well with the deck with my online playtesting, and it is much less linear than one would think. It really rewards good skill, if you don't play the deck well you'll simply lose. Burn is also about 50/50 post board, however they are heavily favored first game. That being said, I do believe burn is a stronger deck. It's just one of those decks I will have to learn how to deal with all of the hate it draws. Is there a best version, do you all believe? I have been testing with Mardu, splashing black for Bump in the Night and Rakdos Charm in the SB. The other is very similar to the PT Fate Reforged versions of the deck, Naya with the green splash being for Destructive Revelry in the side.
February 21, 2015 8:49 a.m.
quesobueno123 says... #17
You need the green for revelry so either four color with black and green or naya.
February 21, 2015 9:04 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #18
Shit, if you play for enjoyment, then play Tron or something.
I don't have much experience with tokens, but I've found burn to be extremely consistent and although it's redundant, it wins. Sideboarding is relatively simple and you can run things that wreck most other decks coughBlood Mooncough. It's usually fairly straightforward to play and can be expanded into plenty of different colors.
February 21, 2015 10:14 a.m.
InnerFlame says... #19
Dalektable: Do not splash black for Bump in the Night. Take it from a player who really wanted black to work. I tried mardu, I've tried mardu in the sideboard, and I've tried boros with black and green in the sideboard. None of them worked as well as Boros with green in the sideboard. The problem with splashing black for Bump in the Night is the land. By not having just two colors, you slow the deck down, and if you're going against another burn deck, just end up killing yourself will all the shock lands you need that you likely are also fetching for. Main deck is much better as just two colors. As far as sideboard goes, black does have more powerful cards like Rakdos Charm and Rain of Gore; however, you need to have Destructive Revelry in the sideboard. I use to be where you were...thinking black as all i need and didn't need revelry because I had Wear / Tear. I was wrong. It does so much good against so many decks it is a must. Which leads to sideboarding problems. You not only have less of a chance of getting the lands you need without fetches on the draw and in the opening hand, but if you're ever in a matchup where you want to use both, you better just start the game at 11 life. Which can obviously lead to some problems. And again it's slowing the deck down.
I wanted black to work out so much, and I tried so hard. But the best way to go is Boros with green in the sideboard.
February 21, 2015 12:12 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #20
sylvannos brings up an excellent point. Red Deck Wins runs very similar cards betwixt Legacy and Modern. Some Fireblast, Chain Lightning, Sulfuric Vortex, and a few sideboard cards make up the difference. I got into Modern RDW because I had Legacy RDW first. Picking up the few Modern pieces was easy and inexpensive, in my case.
As far as a splash goes, I still argue the lighter the splash, the better. Blood Moon is super good and becoming reliant upon a 
or 
heavy splash will nullify Moon's effectiveness and weaken the deck. I splash 
for Destructive Revelry, and that's it.
February 21, 2015 12:39 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #21
You don't add black for Bump in the Night. You add black for Tasigur, the Golden Fang as your delve card. My current list: #Burn uses black only for the sideboard and Tasigur, rather than a lot of crappy cards.
InnerFlame I would say that black is worth it for Slaughter Games, but the argument for Destructive Revelry is valid. The reason Tasigur is good is that it can block Siege Rhino, which is actually a problem for burn, while also giving more reach in the midrange. It also gets around Leyline, which is a bonus.
February 21, 2015 5:45 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #22
Wait hold on a second why are we running Tasigur in a burn deck, of all things.
February 21, 2015 6:07 p.m.
Dalektable says... #24
We aren't running Tasigur in a burn deck, because thats bad. We don't replace Treasure Cruise with Tasigur, two totally different cards and purposes. Also cruise is much better.
February 21, 2015 6:22 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #25
JexInfinite: That's fair. I can't really argue against that since affinity is the only thing that beat my burn deck last night.
February 21, 2015 6:58 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #26
Dalektable Tasigur is definitely not Cruise. Tasigur is his own card which is a mainboard answer to midrange cards, and can also make the clock faster.
Cruise was better at making the burn last longer, but Tasigur is better at getting around Leyline, as well as stopping problematic cards such as Siege Rhino, Tarmogoyf and Scooze. By giving the deck more midrange, it is less likely to burn out.
I have tested with Tasigur for about a week, and he's pretty solid. You get to catch everyone off-guard.
February 21, 2015 7:06 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #27
Why play Tasigur when you can play Goyf? Red Deck Wins doesn't want Goyf, nor does it want Tasigur. Tasigur belongs in a midrange strategy. If you're splashing and adding him, you may have better options. Rain of Gore, Everlasting Torment, Dismember, Murderous Cut even. Torpor Orb also shuts down ETB effects, however a Skullcrack in hand is worth two in the bush.
February 21, 2015 7:29 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #28
I meant twin, not affinity, JexInfinite. Affinity has just been on my mind lately. I don't see how tasigur is viable. It cost too much mana and doesn't do anything when it comes out except block in a burn deck. His ability cost way too much to even consider using. Especially when you want to win by turn 4. A burn deck should not have to worry about midrange because the opponent should be dead long before you even want to consider tasigur.
February 21, 2015 8:44 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #29
InnerFlame To ignore Siege Rhino is stupid given its wide popularity. You can reliably get a T3 Tasigur, and sometimes have Bolt mana up, too. Burn decks do not always win by T4. With my experience, T5 is much more common. You have to realize that burn loses to cards like Kitchen Finks and Siege Rhino, so you have to be prepared for them. Tasigur deals 8 damage in 2 attacks, and is one of the best top decks.
aeonstoremyliver Why do we play Monastery Swiftspear? Because it's cheap, and can get bigger. Why not Goyf? Because we don't have targeted discard to make it better, or any way to get more than 3 card types into the grave. Why play Tasigur? Because it's cheap, and is consistently big. Cards like Rain of Gore and Everlasting Torment are rubbish. Dismember is not where you want to be with burn, and Murderous Cut can't damage an opponent.
February 22, 2015 1:51 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #30
Rain of Gore, Everlasting Torment, Torpor Orb, Shrine of Burning Rage, Grim Lavamancer, and so forth are all better options than Tasigur. Rain of Gore unanswered makes Lifegain a literal pain. Dismember has been a good sideboard card in the past. Torpor Orb is also better in other matchups, but I digress.
Don't get me wrong, I like your innovation JexInfinite, but it's the usage of Tasigur as a mere body to stop Rhino that concerns me, hence my suggestions for better options.
February 22, 2015 8:37 a.m.
InnerFlame says... #31
aeonstoremyliver has it right. Tasigur lacks haste and does not have a way to do damage to an opponent. That's all burn wants to do. You're right, JexInfinite, burn doesn't always win on turn 4. they aim for 3-5. What is Tasigur going to do to win on turn 5? Attacking with him is useless since he's just going to get chump blocked. Abzan will definitely have a better board state than you since you should just be hitting them in the face. Burn has so many other cards that deal with life gain and they should be dead by the time they get to swing with anything big because they just took a crap ton of damage to the face.That's just the nature of burn, there's no changing it. If you change it, it's not burn. It sacrifices defense for offense. Don't forget about Skullcrack, aeonstoremyliver.
If it doesn't have haste or doing direct damage to an opponent, burn wants nothing to do with it. Barring some exceptions with sideboard cards against control...and even that is very iffy. I respect the innovation, but it's too slow for burn.
February 22, 2015 10:42 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #32
You can get a T2 Tas against Abzan easily as well.
Tasigur improves matches with the MAINboard, instead of using valuable sideboard slots which are wasted on bad cards like Rain of Gore. A T2 4/5 is hard for ANY deck to compete against. Apparently adding midrange into a fragile 'combo' deck is a bad idea, now, even though midrange is clearly successful.
February 23, 2015 2:34 a.m.
InnerFlame says... #33
There are no bad ideas. I'm not trying to bash you in any way. It's great they you're thinking. But a lot of times a creature in burn is worthless because it can just get blocked. That's why swiftspear and guide are used, because they can hit on turn 1 and 2 with haste. And swiftspear kind of fills in as the "meaty" creature since it can get big. And Eidolon is used because it burns a lot, even if it gets removed, it still does damage. Tasigur is just going to get blocked by spirits or removed by a path without doing any damage to the player. Which means a wasted mana. Which could he the difference between a turn 4 and turn 5 win if you could have played a Lightning Bolt instead. Which could be the difference between winning and losing.
February 23, 2015 8:57 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #34
Burn isn't really a midrange deck. If we want turn 2 4/5s, we could just play Goyf. Taz doesn't have haste and doesn't do anything the turn he hits the field. In burn, that can be fatal if he just gets pathed, which Abzan is most definitely running mainboard.
How is Rain of Gore bad? It makes Siege Rhino that much less good and stops Kitchen finks fuckery. It doesn't even matter to burn, because we never gain life.
xlaleclx says... #2
Burn is currently and has always been a better deck than BW tokens. Burn is especiall good at the moment as it crushes abzan and is fairly well positioned against most decks right now. I wouldn't really recommend anyone build BW tokens. There's just so many better decks.
February 20, 2015 11:50 p.m.