Calling B/G-Mages! What do? Jund, Junk, Rock?
Modern forum
Posted on Dec. 8, 2014, 10:21 a.m. by Putrefy
Hello everyone,
I'm calling fellow B/G/x-players to assist me. Recently Modern was dominated by decks running some combination of blue or red or Pod-Decks. However as some examples have shown, B/G-based decks are still capeable of posting good results. Willy Edel went 3-1 with his Abzan Midrange deck at WCM and we had another Abzan list getting Top8 at the latest GP in Madrid.
However with the resurgence of Pod and U/R based decks (not control) being another major player, one must ask him/herself, if Abzan is really the place to be. We all know, that Siege Rhino is a big new threat, that's not easily handled. But is it good enough to play 4 Siege Rhino of your own, when Pod-Decks also play them but can "cheat" them into play much more easily? Rhino is very good against Pod. It has trample, it's huge, they cannot (easily, only with Dismember) remove it. But what do you do, when they start podding up their own Rhinos? You suddenly have a staredown, with the difference being, that they have basically infinite Rhinos and you have to hope for the top card of your library to be good. That's not a winning position... So how can we beat Rhino-Pod as B/G/x-players?
I say go back to Jund. Lightning Bolt is awesome right now with all the delver-decks running around. Anger of the Gods tears Pod and Delver apart. You still have the awesome discard-shell that's so good against all the combo-decks (Scapeshift, Storm, Valakut/Through the Breach) and Control (Kiki-Control, Blue Moon, UWR-Control). The only real downside: you don't get to play Rhino and Souls and you sideboard is significantly weaker (everybody knows white has the best hate).
One thing however is absolutely clear: You don't want to play Dark Confidant right now. It has been some rough times for good ol' Bob lately and it isn't going to change anytime soon. You simply cannot support him in such a hostile/aggressive environment. More often than not you'd die with spells in your hand. At which point Bob was useless, heck even helped your opponent.
Another thing that's rather clear to me: you want some reliable source of lifegain. Be it Siege Rhino, Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix or Huntmaster of the Fells Flip. And that's the starting point for me.
You take the shell:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
4x Abrupt Decay
And then you add in: Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, Courser of Kruphix, Huntmaster of the Fells Flip and you have a nice midrange-deck, that's strong against Pod with Anger of the Gods, strong against U/R Aggro decks with Courser of Kruphix, Anger of the Gods, Lightning Bolt and also good against the other decks mentioned above (Control/Combo).
I don't have an exact 75 yet, but I think right now is the time to switch from Abzan to Jund. Playing regular Siege Rhinos is very good, however it cannot beat cheated Siege Rhinos.
Please let me know what you think, especially fellow B/G-mages!
Regards
lemmingllama says... #3
The deck that you are suggesting also folds to Siege Rhino. You have no creatures that can block it, and you have to either Thoughtseize it away or get two for one'd by blocking and then using Bolt or Anger. Liliana of the Veil won't work against pod either, since they will likely do Kitchen Finks into Siege Rhino and have another creature to sacrifice.
I guess it really just depends on whether or not you have a strong early game, but if they get started then you are going to lose.
December 8, 2014 10:39 a.m.
I'm playing Jund, splashing white for Souls, Path and Rhino. You just can't beat the Jund shell with Bolt. Technically it's 4C Good stuff in a Jund shell. Confidant is too easily outclassed right now, and I've taken him out. I play 2 Kitchen Finks in my build to deal with Aggro and sweepers.
As far as Vengevine, GY hate is too easily played. I've never been a fan of GY recursion in Modern. Relic, Grafdigger Cage, Rest in Peace, etc. The shell is just too fragile.
I agree though, a Jund/Junk deck is great in the meta.
December 8, 2014 11:24 a.m.
You could also go BUG. Opens up Treasure Cruise and/or (my preferred choice over Bob to avoid life loss against U/R Delver) Dig Through Time, and counterspells. Keeps your removal package mostly the same, only losing bolt, but allows you to deal with things before they hit the board. Remand is great right now when everyone else is playing cruise and dig. Shadow of Doubt is awesome against pod, and Scavenging Ooze can help deal with finks if it is a problem. Here is my list if you want to check it out.
Do the Creep Playtest
Modern*
SCORE: 59 | 48 COMMENTS | 8847 VIEWSDecember 8, 2014 11:41 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #6
Another option is going 4 colour? Or maybe running Dismember to deal with the Siege Rhino as that is the only decent modern removal that deals with 5 power stuff...
December 8, 2014 11:55 a.m.
Now is not the right time to play Ajundi (4c - white, black, green, red). It's slow, the manabase is unreliable, it tears itself apart with shocks and fetches etc. It'll be very fragile to these aggro decks. You either quickly get the mana you need and hit your life total hard or you get there super slowly - neither route helps against UR delver. Do not play Ajundi in this meta. It is pretty notorious for being on the edges of viability but having some serious, serious problems. Note that a lot of the common decks right now can sideboard in Blood Moon too.
Abzan absolutely IS the place to be. You have enough removal and blockers to beat delver without even trying. Their deck folds to Abrupt Decay in most scenarios because they only run somewhere around 14 threats which is pretty low. They also fold to Drown in Sorrow which you have to be sideboarding in. Against pod you just sideboard in great attrition cards like Thrun, the Last Troll and Batterskull. There's no way they can outrace a 4/4 vigilant life linker.
Your problems sound as if they come from the fact that your sideboard is poor. Every problem you have can be solved without leaving BGW
Against delver - Abrupt Decay, Drown in Sorrow, Damnation, Scavenging Ooze, Tarmogoyf, Kitchen Finks or Courser of Kruphix, Obstinate Baloth or Siege Rhino. This is a collection of capable sweepers, life gain, and solid blockers.
Against pod - Abrupt Decay, Drown in Sorrow, Damnation, Liliana of the Veil (you can out attrition pod with planeswalkers), Scavenging Ooze, Tarmogoyf, Thrun, the Last Troll, Batterskull. This is a collection of superior removal, attrition engines, and life gain. Against Siege Rhino you need Dismember, Liliana of the Veil, Damnation, Tarmogoyf.
In essence the only thing red adds is Lightning Bolt. Lightning Bolt is outclassed by Drown in Sorrow against delver, and does little to pod (won't answer Siege Rhino anyway). Don't play Jund.
December 8, 2014 12:50 p.m.
Expensive ass pox deck Playtest
Modern*
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 30 VIEWSThis is the prototype list of a deck I played for a little while. Actual sleeved deck had some changes to the mana base and a few other tweaks.
It was fun when I go t1 thoughtseize chuck their pod or whatever
pod goes t1 land hierarch
my t2 Smallpox made me laugh every time.
December 8, 2014 2:07 p.m.
This is a very interesting discussion. I've been debating the same thing lately. But Im pretty happy with junk. It has a really solid removal package, plenty of life gain (becoming much more important to run nowadays), and plenty of wincon to go around. Ive been playtesting various rock builds for month, and junk rock is where im going to stay for now.
I definitely agree with ChiefBell first point: now is not the time to be running 4 colors, you probably wont win.
December 8, 2014 2:15 p.m.
I feel like Pod decks are the best GBx variant around right now. If you want to play something else, Liliana of the Veil junk might not be bad, but prepare for some difficult matchups.
December 8, 2014 2:39 p.m.
Nah. Pod lacks removal and get hit pretty hard by unfair decks like scapeshift and twin.
December 8, 2014 2:46 p.m.
Are you saying Pod decks aren't good right now? Seriously? They've been extremely successful for the last few months.
December 8, 2014 2:49 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #13
Now is not the time to play Jund. While Jund has access to Bolt and Anger, it's also the deck that by far deals itself the most damage. Siege Rhino and Lingering Souls are together probably better than Anger and Bolt, especially when the Jund deck needs to pay life out of its ass to cast those spells.
December 8, 2014 2:53 p.m.
I'm thinking they may soon unban Bloodbraid Elf, which will make Jund competitive again. For now, Azban is strictly the better choice.
December 8, 2014 2:55 p.m.
vishnarg - if you could copy and paste the bit of my post where I said that pod decks aren't good right now, I'd appreciate it. I can't seem to find that bit........ must be a glitch or something. Or, you know, perhaps it is there because I like, never said that.
It's unlikely they'll unban the elf. They could, but it would have repercussions that stretch further than just making Jund good. Could affect Living End and some other stuff too. Who knows; it's a risky move.
Sometimes you just have to accept that it's not the right time for a deck. BGR does well in slightly less aggro-y metas due to its high risk manabase. There's nothing Wizards needs to urban to change that - it's just a fault of the deck as a whole and will always be a fault of the deck, no matter what happens.
December 8, 2014 3:04 p.m.
Thanks for the input everyone!
Playing 4C is out of question as of now. I've tried 4C Junk with blue-splash for Treasure Cruise. When it worked it was ridiculously good, but more often than not the mana didn't work or you pained your self out of the game. It was fun though. Especially the T3 "Play Sword, Equip Sword onto Lotus Cobra, swing for 4, untap 3 lands, play Tarmogoyf, Thoughtseize you, pass"... Oh well... Magical Dreamland :)
I don't think you give Anger of the Gods enough credit, however I think the manabase is really painful. What kind of sideboard would you suggest ChiefBell?
I would run something along the lines of: 2 Fulminator Mage (if you run 2 main) 2 Stony Silence, 2 Aven Mindcensor, 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Damnation, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Lingering Souls, 3 Timely Reinforcements. Does that sound right? I don't think Drown in Sorrow is really necessary against Delver, as it's already a pretty favorable matchup. I haven't seen much burn lately so maybe the 3 timely are too much.
December 8, 2014 3:06 p.m.
"Nah. Pod lacks removal and get hit pretty hard by unfair decks like scapeshift and twin."
I took that as Pod decks aren't good right now. What were you trying to say?
December 8, 2014 3:06 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #18
The best decks in the format right now are those playing blue delve spells. Scapeshift is through the roof, Twin is not too far behind, and BGx decks have mostly fallen by the wayside.
Pod is still strong because it has a good Delver matchup, but it's even worse against Scapeshift and Twin so I wouldn't play it if you expect those decks. I wouldn't be playing BGx right now under any circumstances, but if you are going to play the deck with Bloodbraid Rhino and access to Timely Reinforcements.
December 8, 2014 3:08 p.m.
I personally go - 2 Drown in Sorrow, 2 Creeping Corrosion, 1 Damnation, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Thrun, the Last Troll, 1 Batterskull, other stuff. Timely Reinforcements is good. Sanctimony is good, but is a MASSIVE meta call.
December 8, 2014 3:12 p.m.
Ahh an uneducated one... @vishnarg Abzan-God Willy Edel called it "Bloodbraid Rhino" in his deck-tech at the WCM...
December 8, 2014 3:12 p.m.
vishnarg - I meant it as pod isn't the only BG deck worth playing. Not that pod isn't good. Good, but not the only possibility.
GlistenerAgent - BGW decks are getting a single spot in most top 8s. They're definitely not useless.
December 8, 2014 3:14 p.m.
@ChiefBell isn't it better to run Stony Silence over Creeping Corrosion as it helps smooth our horrible Tron-Matchup and basically does the same against Affinity?
December 8, 2014 3:14 p.m.
@ChiefBell, are you going to answer me? What did you mean by that?
@Putrefy, Interesting... I guess I can see the correlation. Thanks.
December 8, 2014 3:14 p.m.
@ChiefBell Crap, sorry. I saw it said you mentioned me, but didn't see that comment. My bad.
December 8, 2014 3:16 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #26
@ChiefBell The matchups that used to be very good are either not as good or bad. Siege Rhino is gas so I can see how Abzan is winning matches, but by no stretch is it a strong metagame choice.
Yes, Stony Silence is the better option. I'd play 2 Stony and 1 Corrosion.
Siege Rhino is Bloodbraid Elf cascading into Lightning Helix, but with a bigger body. What the hell is this card.
December 8, 2014 3:17 p.m.
Running 4x Tectonic Edge and 4x Fulminator Mage and sideboarding in more Maelstrom Pulse gives you a pretty good ton matchup anyway.
December 8, 2014 3:18 p.m.
I might try Stony Silence for myself. I prefer Creeping Corrosion because it kills Mox Opal too which completely screws Affinity.
December 8, 2014 3:23 p.m.
Probably worth mentioning that BG is my go-to deck, not BGW .
December 8, 2014 3:26 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #31
Stony Silence also kills Mox Opal, by the way.
BUG is strictly worse than Abzan or Jund just because it tries to do everything and fails. It's trying to be a discard deck and a counterspell deck, and what actually happens is that you get overrun by decks with too many 2-for-1's. Also, the cards in white and red are just better for the archetype than blue.
December 8, 2014 3:56 p.m.
I'm not sure how to build a good Sultai-Deck for Modern. Do you go aggro and play Delver? Are there really enough B/U-spells to justify that route? Or do you go big - but then what's the incentive of playing blue? Early handsculpting with Serum Visions? I mean you're still no combo deck, so that's mediocre at best. Maybe tempo, using Remand and Vapor Snag backed by Abrupt Decay and early discard, forcing through damage with a Tarmogoyf / Delver of Secrets Flip. Then again, I'd rather have the big threat e.g. Siege Rhino instead of vulnerable threats like Delver.
Maybe you only play blue for Treasure Cruise and like 1 or 2 Snapcaster Mage + Creeping Tar Pit. However, without many cheap spells it'll take some time before Cruise comes online - and I really didn't like playing Cruise alongside Goyf in my 4C-Midrange-Treasure-Rhino deck.
I'd say: try it out. But you should make it clear what your goal is: aggression, attrition, tempo, midrange/control. Otherwise you'll end up with a deck that runs 4 Delver of Secrets Flip but only 16 spells.
December 8, 2014 5:09 p.m.
@Putrefy Here is what I came up with. I'm Bugging Out
Also, has anyone thought of playing 1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos in Modern Junk? It seems like it would be really good.
December 8, 2014 6:20 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #36
It's not better than Courser of Kruphix or Siege Rhino. I think that's the actual answer.
December 8, 2014 6:31 p.m.
Wish I had room to run Courser in my Pod deck... he's so good, but just doesn't make the cut.
December 8, 2014 7:29 p.m.
I just put this list together, updated for a newer modern meta. Wanted to support siege rhino and have more life gain in general with this list id love to here what you all think. Perhaps...
December 8, 2014 8:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #40
Path to Exile shouldn't be in a Jund deck. It's not what you want to be doing. Sorin and Bile Blight are oddly... Standard choices. I'd play a fourth Ooze.
December 8, 2014 8:20 p.m.
GlistenerAgent Why not path to exile as a 2-of? It is a solid answer to kitchen finks, wurmcoil, anything indestructible.
I feel like I draw into ooze too much when I dont need it, i dropped one for the courser. And Bile Blight is good man, shits on souls, wurm tokens, pyromancer tokens ect, and its an instant speed maelstrom pulse sometimes. I can see why sorin is a little questionable, but I really like his ultimate, and his +1 seem pretty relevant too.
December 8, 2014 8:57 p.m.
Sorins lifelink until your next turn is so gas. Seriously considering playing 2 of him.
December 8, 2014 9:01 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #43
Path to Exile is not where pure midrange decks want to be. Your goal with removal is not to deal with as much as possible like control decks, your goal is to one-for-one with removal spells/discard and let your threats grind them out as they run out of resources.
Bile Blight is worse than Dismember except against token strategies. I'll give you that it's better against Delver, but even then I think I'd rather be playing Darkblast to actually kill the Pyromancer.
You shouldn't play planeswalkers for their ultimates, because if you can protect them for that long the ultimate is probably just another nail in the coffin. His +1 is worse than in decks with more guys, as since you only play 12 guys it can be irrelevant sometimes. For four mana, he doesn't protect himself without dying to Bolt and doesn't immediately gain significant card advantage.
These are all the reasons why innovation is bad. :)
December 8, 2014 9:02 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #44
Scratch the part about Sorin, Solemn Visitor not protecting himself, the lifelink until your next turn is pretty solid. Still, I prefer having another land in that spot (22 should be more like 24-25).
December 8, 2014 9:03 p.m.
As a 1 one I think he would fine. What do you think of Brimaz?
December 8, 2014 9:16 p.m.
Running less than 24 lands is out of the question. You need to make your landdrops. This deck is mana-hungry and you need all your lands 1-4 to hit everything on curve.
@ DrFunk27
See that's exactly the list I feared to see. It doesn't know what it wants. T1 Delver or Discard or Visions? When you play Delver, what do you do on T2? Delay your Goyf, hold up Remand or play Discard/Visions, T3 if you've played Delver + Goyf, when do you start to play discard? I don't think (never thought) discard + delver/counter pair(ed) too well. One strategy is proactive (discard), the other is reactive (cantrips/counterspells/flash-creatures).
As for the Brimaz: the thought of needing GG/BB/WW on T3 is vomit-inducing. Also, we have three 3-drops that are in my opinion better suited. Either you maindeck 2 Fulminator Mage, 2 Courser of Kruphix or, if you expect a huge field of Pod / Control, 2 Anafenza, the Foremost. I don't think Brimaz compares to them well as he's just another beater (and a worse one than Goyf/Anafenza). Also keep in mind: the deck is base B/G you don't want to fetch so much white early on. You basically splash white for only: 4 Rhino, 1 Souls maybe 1 Path.
@ 8vomit
I think 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor is debatable. Not debatable however is running only 22 lands, not the full playset of Verdant Catacombs, not running Stirring Wildwood (instead of 3 Treetop, play 2 Wildwood to smooth your mana) and if you live in fear of tokens play 1 Maelstrom Pulse over the Bile Blight. It can - in addition to the token-killing - take down much more troublesome targets like Birthing Pod or Karn Liberated. Other than that it's pretty much the go-to right now, but I'd play only 1 Path to Exile and a 2nd Dismember.
December 9, 2014 2:31 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #47
Abzan seems to have it all as far as attrition goes at the moment. Before Bloodbraid Rhino and Anafenza, it was better than Jund, and now with Abzan-specific cards, there's no reason to play any other colours of attrition.
B/G/x decks started to take a beating with the banning of DRS because he fixed the mana problems. The fact that B/G/x had no mana problems meant that there was no reason not to play it.
If you want to not play Abzan, BUG seems like the best option, even though it's nowhere near as good. Don't forget that white in the sideboard actually just makes the 75 WAY better.
December 9, 2014 7:56 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #48
MB some Bojuka Bog helps quite a bit in the U/R matches.
December 9, 2014 3:18 p.m.
I think bog is definitely worth trying. I'm testing 1 Sorin and with man lands it's pretty awesome. What do you think of playing Wooded Bastion and Twilight Mire? Is that to much filtering? I like Anafenza but it hurts scooze. Dismember almost has to be played with a field full of rhinos.
I think voice of resurgence is almost necessary in the current meta as a 2 of. Thoughts?
December 9, 2014 4:30 p.m.
What's your reasoning for Voice? It's not great in a deck that plays like 12 creatures.
Boza says... #2
I say go bigger. It is time for Vengevine to shine. Kill them faster and more reliably. Jund vengevine is the shit right now. I am building a deck with Varolz, lotleth troll, death's shadow and Vengevine to make lethal attacks quickly.
Beats pod easily as it is faster than the lifegain and they tend to lose a lot of life early on fetches and pod casting and activations.
Is faster than Delver and naturally opposed to counterspells (vengevine has an ability to return it).
December 8, 2014 10:34 a.m.