Competitiveness of Tokens
Modern forum
Posted on July 31, 2013, 12:36 p.m. by xzzane
As a huge token fan, I aim to make a very competitive token deck. How often do you see token decks in competitive Modern tournaments?
Yeah, I've run into that problem as well. I find that if I sideboard against things like Ratchet Bomb though, then i usually can turn out alright.
July 31, 2013 1:13 p.m.
The problem is...how do you sideboard against Ratchet Bomb and Engineered Explosives ? Since they can be fired off as soon as they're cast (against tokens, at least), that really leaves only one option that I can think of, which is Stony Silence .
The problem is that Stony Silence really isn't good for anything else. It can slow affinity down, but it's not even the best anti-affinity card in that color. Plus you'd be having to guess whether your opponent is bringing in the Bombs and the Explosives, and if it turns out he didn't have them, you'd just have a couple of blanks coming in from the board.
What should not be forgotten is that Pod is still a thing, and Pod likes to play Orzhov Pontiff . Torpor Orb answers half of it, and Orb is already a reasonable card to bring in against Pod, but Pontiff can still sweep the board of X/1's even without its ETB ability.
And then there's Tron decks that run main-deck Pyroclasm (as well as the Clasms that come out of the board of other decks like Kiki-Twin). Burrenton Forge-Tender , I guess, but again that's a really narrow card.
That's not to say that tokens is undoable, but it has challenges because of the easy availability of sweepers that cannot be answered by a single sideboard card. It's a deck where you can get to be at a little bit of a disadvantage in post-board games because you're going to be forced to be reactive instead of proactive.
July 31, 2013 2:55 p.m.
Pyroclasm i deal with by using Brave the Elements . As for Stony Silence , i run it in my mono white token deck and it does me well. I'm considering it for my B/W token deck, but I have Sundering Growth in the spot right now. The problem with Sundering Growth is that I may simply not have the mana to play it in time. I'm well aware of the weaknesses, but I'm determined to make as competitive of a token deck as I can make. I just love tokens.
July 31, 2013 3:05 p.m.
I guess that's doable. I didn't realize that all of your tokens would be white to benefit from Brave the Elements .
The problem with Sundering Growth is that against these two artifact sweepers, you don't have time to play it even if you do have the mana. They can just drop it and fire it off immediately. You need a way to stop the abilities, not a way to destroy the artifact. (Conceivably, Rootborn Defenses can also work, but I'd be suspicious of having to hold up three mana for it.)
I love tokens too. I've played them extensively in Standard over the last two years or so (since both Elspeth Tirel and Gavony Township were Standard-legal at the same time), and the Standard deck I'm playing right now is capable of generating no fewer than six different kinds of tokens. I really like the Modern BW Tokens decks that people like Melissa DeTora have been placing in GP T16's lately. I wish you the best of luck with it.
July 31, 2013 3:18 p.m.
Huh. My B/W Swarm and Conquer resembles her's a lot actually. And yeah, that is true. I may swap out some cards in my sideboard for Stony Silence for that very reason. And thanks.
July 31, 2013 3:30 p.m.
Trius went 3-1 using W/B Tokens in a Modern Daily. Then there's Craig Wescoe's deck that got top16 at Grand Prix Portland.
I don't think tokens are the best deck you can play, but they can certainly prey upon a lot of decks in the right meta.
July 31, 2013 6:40 p.m.
Yeah, tokens have their drawbacks and limitations, but they're just so fun to play. What do you think is the best archetype to play in Modern?
July 31, 2013 7:59 p.m.
megawurmple says... #10
The best archetype in Modern is very much dependant on who you're against. That's the glory of Magic; there are no 'best' decks. For example, check out this deck:
. If my opponent runs a creature based strategy and can't find an immediate answer to my threats (eg Naya Blitz), I can wipe their board and overwhelm their battlefield very easily. However, decks such as WUR Control really give me a hard time because they can answer most of my threats and slowly beat me down with a Geist of Saint Traft whilst keeping my side of the board clear. However, if the WUR Control deck played against Naya Blitz, it would struggle to handle the sheer pace of the Blitz and would probably lose.
Do you see what I mean? All decks have their weaknesses.
August 1, 2013 4:03 a.m.
megawurmple says... #11
I apologise, I didn't mean to do the large deck chart. It previewed a small link but for some reason came out like that. I'm not trying to advertise.
August 1, 2013 4:04 a.m.
@TitansFTW I wouldn't take it as advertising - no need to apologize!
Actually, I had written a long post myself making a very similar point! But since all my examples were from EDH I had second thoughts about posting it here. However, I think that what you are saying is just "a thing" in MTG. With the exception of the most expensive deck choices, most any strategy is counterable.
My solution to this (in EDH mind you - but I have heard of people doing similar things in other formats) is to have more than one deck. People who play against me can then easily build in answers to any one of my cheap (and therefor easily countered) strategies, but it would take about 20 slots in their own deck to build in answers to me as a player. The next step is to get them thinking they know what I will bring each night - and then change my mind at the last minute ;-p
All of that being said, I think tokens are one of the most obvious, most inexpensive, and most powerful strategies so that a lot of decks have mainboard answers built in for them. But what these answers are will be easy to predict: Ratchet Bomb , Terminus , Detention Sphere , etc. so you can get instant-speed artifact or enchantment removals in there like whatever the current versions of Disenchant are (at least if you have access to G, W or maybe R) - or if it is U that you are using, then save a counter-spell. If it is B or R, then you can make sure to have something out there that punishes your opponent for killing your creatures (although that won't help if they get stuffed in your library or returned to your hand or exiled - but ratchet bomb is the quickest and easiest answer to tokens and it is colorless so you are likely to see it if you become known for using tokens).
August 1, 2013 10:30 a.m.
Yeah, I guess it was a pretty nonsensical question to ask what the "best" archetype was. Believe me, I know of how a matchup can be good for one person or bad for the other. It's part of what makes this game we all love so unique and fun. And even within the archetypes people can do things their own way, and make their deck special to them. Tokens have always been special to me, and so I'll probably continue to play them even with all the easy hate they can get through things like Ratchet Bomb , Terminus , Detention Sphere , etc. It's actually one of the reasons I enjoy tokens. It just wouldn't be fun if one archetype had no weaknesses. I enjoy the challenge of facing someone with a good sideboard, and seeing how our next match might end differently because of it. A large part of what makes this game fun to me is spending the time and building your deck so you can show it off when you duel someone.
August 1, 2013 11:09 a.m.
To be honest, though, with the way the new Modern bannings have been going, Melira Pod has been the most consistent deck in the format with some of the highest win rates and top 8s.
3 of the top 8 at Grand Prix: Portland were Melira Pod, with one more in top 16. Only 9 other archetypes were seen in the top 16, with only 4 of those in top 8.
With Seething Song and Second Sunrise banned, Pod's worst matchups just haven't been showing up.
August 1, 2013 5:13 p.m.
I know this is a little off the OP, but since we're talking about "best archetype" in Modern right now....
Melira Pod is incredibly consistent. Outside of its two recent wins, it also got a second on the Modern GP before that. However, Kansas City had a lot more to say about the metagame than "Melira is good."
There were literally 8 different archetypes (if you count UR Twin and UWR Twin as different archetypes, which I think is appropriate since they play completely differently) in the top 8. There were two more in the top 16, or three if you count the two different styles of Scapeshift (which I also think is appropriate). Melira Pod won, but it didn't have another copy in the top 16.
Keep in mind that this top 16 didn't include any Affinity, Geist, Tron (either variety), Gifts, Jund, UW Control, BW Tokens, Bogles, Soul Sisters, Hatebears, or Storm. That means that even if you're being conservative (not counting some of those listed as "good"; calling Twin, Tron, and Scapeshift one archetype instead of two), you have at least 14 good archetypes in Modern right now.
I really dislike many of the bannings that Wizards has done, but at least for the moment, the Modern metagame is very healthy. Every deck has a chance, and every deck has an enemy that it has a hard time beating (even Melira Pod, which rolls over to RG Tron and has a hard time with Primetime-fueled Scapeshift). I really don't think you can even begin to talk about a best archetype in the current format.
Which, to make some lame attempt at tying into the original topic, means that there's probably a place for tokens too (I did list it, and I do consider it to be one of those good archetypes). As long as you're careful.
megawurmple says... #2
The problem with token decks is that they are very easy to knock out. Cards like Ratchet Bomb and Engineered Explosives are in a lot of Modern sideboards, and board wipes really put a dampener on proceedings. Tokens are very good, but for that reason, many people sideboard against them, which makes it very difficult to run them competitively.
July 31, 2013 12:47 p.m.