Does Grixis Control need Cruel Ultimatium any more?
Modern forum
Posted on April 8, 2015, 5:29 p.m. by MollyMab
So, I've noticed a lot of Grixis Control decks and pretty much without fail, you will find a copy of Cruel Ultimatium in the 75 somewhere.
I understand that it is the premier Grixis card, but do you guys think it is very viable in modern?
It is high cost, meaning you play it turn 7-8 at earliest, 9-11 if you want counter back up.
The impact isn't as great as it once was. Decks are either happy to the flood the board or just playing their creatures gives then enough value. The life gain isn't too bad, but still isn't selling me on it.
Compare to something like Mystical Teachings Grixis control could go fetch Kolgans command for a 2 for 1, Bolt, Terminate, etc etc.
So what do you think? Has Cruel Ultimatum had its day?
I don't feel you are short of finishers. You got huge advantage engines possible. You have threats like Aetherling that block Seige Rhino etc, Batterskull, Clique, Manlands.
Really Rev is a "Keep me in the game spell", but Grixis can just keep the advantage going.
April 8, 2015 5:33 p.m.
I kind of don't like it. Especially with the types of decks nowadays it's gone from insta-win to just very large advantage. Abzan can even stabilise against that potentially (in some situations - if they have plenty of cards to discard and have lingering souls tokens then it's like 'meh'). I know this might sound mental but I'd rather run something like Karn Liberated. I mean, I much prefer how targeted it is, how hard it is to remove, and how it gains you lots and lots of advantage instead of being a one-shot effect.
That's just me though.
April 8, 2015 5:38 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #5
It's not necessary if you build for a quicker kill, more burn or creature heavy Grixis decks obviously don't "Need" it.
It wins my games a little less than half the time.And Aetherling backs it up.
April 8, 2015 5:39 p.m.
Yeh see when you say that you play a 7 mana card that wins you the game under 50% of the time I just think 'why?'. Because, is that really worth it?
April 8, 2015 5:41 p.m.
For what it's worth, my first few experiments with Cruel Ultimatum + Living Lore have been pretty damn good. It still needs a lot of testing, but hey, when you're able to cast Ultimatums every turn starting from T6 (or T4 without counterspell backup), you know you're on to something.
I've also built a less competitive version of the deck that runs 4x Heartless Summoning and 4x Simian Spirit Guide, plus a few Mass Hysterias. It's janky as hell, but I did manage to cast Cruel Ultimatum on turn 3 [!!!] with it more than once. Good for some laughs, if nothing else.
April 8, 2015 6:10 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #9
square711 you have to sac living lore so you dont get to cast it everyturn
April 8, 2015 6:14 p.m.
Angeldeck05 says... #10
In the late game.. You want to have something that you can play to gain a major advantage over another player.. It's a 10 point life swing and you draw into more gas and potentially a removal spell. You get your best bomb back from the graveyard and you hit one of their creatures.. It's such a powerful effect. Resolving it can just flat out win you the game. Sure you don't play 4 of them because in your opening hand multibles will feel salty.. But it is still the best spell of all time fighting cryptic command.. Which does get played more because it's straight blue and cheaper.
April 8, 2015 6:22 p.m.
julianjmoss: you sacrifice it before Cruel Ultimatum resolves, so you can return it from the graveyard to your hand afterwards. Then you cast it again, and exile that same Ultimatum with it. Next turn, swing again, sac it again, cast it again, exile Ultimatum again. You can keep doing that for the rest of the game, as long as you don't get stopped by a Path to Exile, a boardwipe or some weenie with deathtouch.
April 8, 2015 6:29 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #12
So as long as there is no removal spell or blocker you can cast it every turn provided that you have 11 mana up? seems reasonable in the format.
April 8, 2015 6:31 p.m.
4 mana, not 11. You don't ever have to pay Cruel Ultimatum's mana cost, just Living Lore's. And paying 4 mana a turn for such a powerful lock is nothing for a control deck.
April 8, 2015 6:34 p.m.
But it also requires you protect the card. Living Lore is a combo deck, not a control deck or a control creature really.
April 8, 2015 6:36 p.m.
And it doesn't care about blockers either. You can sacrifice the Lore whenever it deals combat damage, be it to a player or a creature. The only blockers that could stop you from doing it are creatures with deathtouch and/or power >= 7. And there aren't a lot of those in Modern.
Believe me, it's incredibly hard to get rid of a Living Lore once it sticks. The biggest flaw in this strategy is, as Chief mentioned in another thread, that it's vulnerable to graveyard hate. But it's not the only wincon in the deck I'm currently running (just a very, very powerful one), and Grixis control has a few ways to deal with graveyard hate, so it hasn't been that much of a problem so far.
April 8, 2015 6:37 p.m.
LeaPlath: you'd be surprised at how little protection Living Lore needs. It survives Lightning Bolt, Dismember, Combust and Roast, can't be targeted by Abrupt Decay... and yes, it's more of a combo creature, but I still consider the first deck I built (the serious, meant-to-be-competitive one) a control deck, because it's more focused on countering stuff and gaining card advantage than simply getting an Ultimatum out. The second, more casual deck (the one with Heartless Summoning) is definitely a combo deck, though.
Anyway, let's keep this thread about Cruel Ultimatum, because I'm starting to feel like I derailed it. :P If you want to further discuss the pros and cons of playing Living Lore, there's a thread I made specifically for that. It's in the Modern forum, just scroll down a bit and you'll find it.
April 8, 2015 6:46 p.m.
square711 - are we absolutely sure the cast card returns from exile to the graveyard? I'm not entirely sure it does.
April 8, 2015 6:56 p.m.
ChiefBell - Living Lore casts the exiled spell, and spells go to the graveyard after resolving, so it makes sense that the exiled spell will go to the gy.
April 8, 2015 7:04 p.m.
Yeah. It does seem very good. I'm just picking apart what exactly it does.
April 8, 2015 7:11 p.m.
Sorry. It actually takes me a while to get to grips with these things. I'm happy with older cards and interactions but not newer ones at all.
April 8, 2015 7:14 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #21
I havent put them in my deck yet.Living Lore i am referring to.
When i say half the time, it means the card alone has demolished my opponent.
Sometimes i sneak a win out of countersqualling a Remand.
Cruel Control is painfully slow.
It's my jam though.
April 8, 2015 7:45 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #22
Oh yes you are correct and my reading skills are pretty poor apparently.
April 8, 2015 7:58 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #23
I'm against Cruel Ultimatum and don't think Control is the right archetype for Grixis colors in Modern.
I think it would make a great Casual deck with Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker.
Maybe I'll do that and a Ugin deck to rival it!
April 8, 2015 9:40 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #24
Don't play Cruel Ultimatum. Just play Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Batterskull.
April 9, 2015 7:35 a.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #25
Tasigur has certainly got the buzz going right now.
While I disagree it's not right for control, I can see where you're coming from.
April 9, 2015 11:39 a.m.
It doesn't have a great interaction with Snapcaster Mage and isn't very resilient. What happened to old Keranos?
April 9, 2015 12:30 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #27
I just stick with Mulldrifter and AEtherling it works for me.
April 9, 2015 12:35 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #28
Cruel Ultimatum is a cool card but I always found Sorin's Vengeance to a tad better in a Grixis control deck. If you are going to wait to turn 7+ it does a better job of making sure the just game ends. Not the best point but the casting cost is more manageable also, the color intensive cost may not be a problem that late in the game though.
But yeah Batterskull simply offers so much more.
April 9, 2015 12:43 p.m.
I still think Keranos if your best wincon. It essentially can't die. It does damage AND it draws you cards.
April 9, 2015 12:44 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #30
Keranos and Batterskull are both the b@lls.
I only speak from a budget view.
April 9, 2015 12:51 p.m.
Yeah, Keranos, God of Storms is the best wincon for U/B/R. When it's not turning your useless land draws into card advantage, it bolts the shit out of stuff. Dude rocks.
I should've mentioned that the wincons in the Grixis deck I've been testing are Living Lore, Keranos and Creeping Tar Pit. Keranos is the one that has won me the most games, with Lore being a close second and Tar Pit a distant third (it tends to perform better when my draws just suck, which they rarely do).
April 9, 2015 1 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #32
Either I really suck at Magic or I am missing something.
I just hate manlands. Don't know why...
I think it's probably option A.
April 9, 2015 2:23 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #33
How many Cruel Ultimatum do you guys run?
With or without Tiago
April 9, 2015 2:24 p.m.
Manlands are important because you want to devote as little space in your deck to cards that aren't control cards. Manlands function as both win conditions AND land. This means instead of including +4x win condition, and -4x counter spell, you can include +4x manland and not have to remove anythign else. It's slots in naturally. They're absolutely amazing.
April 9, 2015 2:27 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #35
Plus empty boards on both sides does happen and u don't want to waste your entire turn top decking a land when you could be attacking with one instead.
April 9, 2015 4:17 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC: I'm running three, but people usually run two. Depends on how deep you can dig for them. But it should never be a 4-of, that's for sure.
On a side note... guys... I just managed to cast a freaking turn 2 Ultimatum on the TO playtester. Needed a perfect hand and three Simian Spirit Guides to pull it off, but holy crap! I'm in Johnny heaven right now hahaha
GlistenerAgent says... #2
I mean, you need a finisher. Sphinx's Revelation is in the UW decks, but Grixis doesn't really have an "X" spell. Cruel Ultimatum gives you some explosiveness. It's a better topdeck when you have seven mana than anything else in your deck (usually).
April 8, 2015 5:32 p.m.