Does Jund Have A Future In Modern?
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 10, 2014, 8:57 p.m. by TheWanderer123
Jund has been one of my favorite wedges for awhile, and I had a blast when Jund was popular in standard around the innistrad block, and had fun with Jund while Deathrite Shaman was still legal. But since the bannings that have hurt the Jund wedge, (ei: Bloodbraid Elf , Deathrite Shaman) all the Jund decks have become 4x Dark Confidant, 4x Tarmogoyf and/or 4x Scavenging Ooze and some generic removal. Getting to the point of this article, does anyone think Jund still has a solid home in modern? Have you seen any fun Jund brews? Let me know what you think. Feel free to discuss deck lists from GP's or just some ideas for the wedge that you have had. Thank you!
TheWanderer123 says... #3
Hopefully, and sorry, I was writing this a little bit later at night and thinking of wedges instead of shards. Cant believe I said that, lol. Thanks, and I hope we can see something that will give it a boost in the future too.
November 10, 2014 9:06 p.m.
Jund was doing pretty well pre-Khans. The thing that struck the nail in the coffin for Jund as of now with Khans was Treasure Cruise. If I am correct, Jund can not handle reducing both players to top decking and then be blown out by the card advantage TC brings due to its discard and Bob being useless.
We have to see next ban time.
November 10, 2014 9:06 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #5
I realize that I said wedge instead of shard, my mistake, please try to excuse my sloppiness :P.
November 10, 2014 9:09 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #6
Hm...could Rakdos's Return as a sb card help? I don't play jund but maybe with more powerful discard jund can manage?
November 10, 2014 9:19 p.m.
I don't think Rakdos's Return would help a ton. Its really slow, a sorcery, and often just a worse Blightning. Often your opponent can empty their refilled the same turn and just overwhelm Jund's grindyness with TC.
November 10, 2014 9:22 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #8
not sure then. Skillfull playing can get you far not I'm not sure what else you can do. I'd hate to see such a towering deck fade away even if i don't pilot it.
November 10, 2014 9:28 p.m.
Jund is basically really aggro now or the way you said in the original post. It's more of a legacy deck now since you can have Bloodbraid Elf and DRS and seems to do pretty well there, as it has some really strong control capabilities.
November 10, 2014 9:38 p.m.
It will come back. They always come back.
I think the rest of Khans will get some Jund stuff eventually, which may or may not be good, but if not I'm sure they will come around eventually. I'm not big into modern, but I'm inspired to go brew with Jund for a while, as it's one of my favorite color combinations.
November 10, 2014 9:39 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #11
BGx in general is down right now. This is mainly because all of its popular good matchups (those being mainly Splinter Twin, Scapeshift and UR Delver) all got access to cards that completely break the matchup. Both Splinter Twin and Scapeshift get to play at least two copies of Dig Through Time (I myself play four copies in my Scapeshift deck), while Delver obviously jams four Ancestral Recall, making it so that the discard spells are a lot weaker. Your opponent having incredibly powerful card advantage engines while still being able to remove your Bobs makes it hard to win games with consistency.
If Treasure Cruise is banned, which I strongly believe it will be, BGx may see a small rise in popularity. Expect it to be considerably worse going forward, however.
November 10, 2014 9:44 p.m.
Well, BGU is doing pretty well, so I suppose you could say that at least one BGx deck is doing pretty well, haha. Its discard and control may not be as strong but it can get the advantage itself, so the opponent playing TC isn't as game breaking because you also have more resources.
November 10, 2014 10:18 p.m.
slovakattack says... #13
I saw someone running more of a midrange build, using Courser of Kruphix and Chandra, Pyromaster to great effect; able to draw out a lot of their hate when they really shouldn't have. Maybe that style of Jund would be better suited to dealing with their now-awful matchups?
I don't play Jund, so tell me if I'm wrong... or rather, how I'm wrong xD
November 10, 2014 10:20 p.m.
theinfernumflame says... #14
I've been playing Jund still. I have a pretty normal list, and feel like, with the right sideboard cards for a given meta, the deck is still pretty solid. I like that it has a chance against just about anything. Like the post above me said, I also run Courser of Kruphix and Chandra, Pyromaster, which are fantastic combined with fetch lands and Dark Confidant.
My worst matchups are the ones against decks that can utterly outvalue me (like Tron), and even then, I feel like that matchup is okay with the right sideboard plan (Ghost Quarter to keep them off tron, Surgical Extraction to permanently deal with a threat or force them to play fair by removing a tron piece, more Maelstrom Pulse to deal with Karn Liberated or Wurmcoil Engine tokens).
November 10, 2014 11:47 p.m.
theinfernumflame says... #15
Although I should mention, if Jund becomes unplayable due to all the card advantage from Khans, I'll be brewing and switching to a similar BUG control build. Same threats, but with counterspells, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise. I'll try to beat everyone else at their own game.
November 10, 2014 11:55 p.m.
With Treasure Cruise running rampant, burn is one of the best decks in the format; burn is a horrific matchup for Jund. I think treasure cruise will not be banned before the pro tour, lets see how the meta adjusts before we discuss bans.
November 11, 2014 12:29 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #17
@wnorris17 It's been two months, what adjustment are you waiting for? The meta adjusted by forcing several archetypes out of existence while blue decks running Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time became roughly 47% of all decks played.
Also, pretty slick move there buddy. "Here's my opinion on the topic. Now no one talk about this topic anymore."
November 11, 2014 12:45 a.m.
theinfernumflame says... #18
I've actually done okay against burn with Jund, though it involves hitting at least one of my lifegain guys (Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix).
November 11, 2014 12:49 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #19
Jund isn't really going to die, but it is definitely less popular with all of these delve cards hosing Goyf. When Cruise gets banned, it will rise slightly in popularity, but never to it's former glory.
November 11, 2014 2:29 a.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #20
Thank you guys for all the comments and discussion, and to what some of you are saying, if you are running legacy jund right now and want a fun way to deal with the treasure cruises, Chains of Mephistopheles can be a good card.
November 11, 2014 6:15 a.m.
Coincidentally, Chains of Mephistopheles also destroys JTMS's 0, haha. But yea, it is a strong SB option in legacy since most decks run some good draw power.
November 11, 2014 9:46 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #22
I play legacy jund. I actually don't have a problem with treasure cruise. Deathrite Shaman makes a huge impact. Plus, the delver decks only run something like 10 threats. Its pretty easy to rid them of win cons
November 11, 2014 12:17 p.m.
Hickorysbane says... #23
As stated above Jund is still workable, but it outta get more goodies soon enough. Jund is kind of the epitome of midrange grindyness. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before some other stellar modern card shows up in those colors. At least that's what I think about it. And there is always the possibility of a TC or Dig Through Time banning making it more relevant again.
November 11, 2014 12:23 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #24
There's already a very cool deck running around playing Treasure Cruise, eleven maindeck lifegain cards including Courser of Kruphix and Obstinate Baloth, and a bunch of other cool stuff. Here's the link. It's a solid Jund variant that I recommend you try out.
This does concur with the assertion that decks in this format need delve spells to be good, but whatever. :)
November 11, 2014 12:29 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #25
So I have been looking at recent GP's , Invitationals, and IQ's and I have seen some jund in the top 8 here and there, usually in 7th or 8th place. The one out of all of those that I like the most is Kyle Wilson's Jund that he got 8th place on 10/26/14 SCG IQ. If anyone has seen the deck list or wants to check it out, tell me what you think about it, how you think it might play against certain match ups etc. It would be a great help. Thanks to you all who have commented before hand.
November 11, 2014 4:25 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #26
@ GlistenerAgent cool, I will check it out, looks fun :).
November 11, 2014 4:28 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #27
could you post a link to that TheWanderer123?
November 11, 2014 4:29 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #28
sure @CommanderOfBolas its: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=75374
November 11, 2014 4:34 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #29
I'm actually not a fan of that deck. Scavenging Ooze is one of the few ways the deck has to beat the delve spells, and cutting it for a four mana card that practically loses on the spot to Remand or Mana Leak is poor if you're trying to beat Delver. Putting your Anger of the Gods in the sideboard is weak as well. The extra discard spells and Chalice of the Void in the sideboard look solid, but the radical changes he's made don't seem strong in my mind.
November 11, 2014 4:41 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #30
@CommanderOfBolas or anyone else who wants to look at this really different Jund deck that Eric Yu got 5th place SCG IQ on 10/18/14. Its a really fun looking deck. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74837
November 11, 2014 4:43 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #31
@GlistenerAgent you should check out Eric Yu's deck that I just posted. I do agree with you about the Scavenging Ooze decision on Kyle Wilson's Jund deck.
November 11, 2014 4:45 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #32
That's actually a completely different deck that's called Aggro Loam or Assault Loam. It uses Life from the Loam and Seismic Assault to grind out a win, but uses a very different angle than other decks which makes it interesting. It really shouldn't be called "Jund", though.
November 11, 2014 4:46 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #33
Yea, I should have specified by saying Jund variant. But it is a cool deck to anyone who still wants to play the Jund color shard but with a different play style.
November 11, 2014 4:49 p.m.
heres the thing...why cant jund just become 4 color and splash a few islands for cruise itself?
you can easily ditch bob now, and run young pyro in his place to gain board advantage. keep the discard suite active still, and then add graveyard hate main board.
I don't understand why people are sooooo hyped up on delver variants, yes they are good, but they are not unbeatable, you need to survive a few turns out and stabilize and then the shit storm happens to them.
here is something I am brewing currently for modern:
November 11, 2014 5:12 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #35
This is exactly why they need to ban Treasure Cruise.
November 11, 2014 5:14 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #36
Thanks @Khanye for the deck to look at, ill be sure to check it out soon. I was looking through some more tournament top 8's and I saw one of the higher placed Jund decks in awhile. The deck was Ben Cudia and he placed 3rd at SCG IQ 10/18/14 with a little bit of a different creature base, having a 1xOlivia Voldaren in the main board and a 1xHuntmaster of the Fells Flip. The deck is: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=74843 to anyone who wants to check it out.
November 11, 2014 5:20 p.m.
but why ban it? because it is a card that EVERY deck can potentially use? it has accelerated the nature of the game, and made it faster? it has enabled combo decks even further, given aggro fuel, and given mid range an absolute house to deploy late game?
i see no valid reason to ban the card, it has been a great addition to the entire community, EVERY deck can use it, not just Ux delver...
if it could go off turn 1, then i could see the merit behind the crying over it. Consistently, you are looking a turn 3-4 draw 3, although very powerful is NOT game breaking to the point where you can't beat it.
November 11, 2014 5:23 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #38
"because it is a card that EVERY deck can potentially use? "
"EVERY deck can use it"
Precisely. It's way too powerful, and it's close enough to "play this card or lose" that it needs to be banned.
I think you underestimate how powerful Ancestral Recall is, especially when you have four in your deck. I won a UR Delver mirror just because I resolved two Treasure Cruises and he cast one.
November 11, 2014 5:26 p.m.
so very good synergestic cards should be banned? DRS was banned not because it was over the top powerful, it was banned because the meta became 90% jund...that was another card that could easily be splashed into alot of decks, but people just didn't want to.
just because a card is powerful enough to be used by any deck in the meta does not warrant a banning. you beat the mirror because you cast 1 more cruise than him? no, you beat the mirror because those 3 extra cards netted you more answers out of your deck than your opponent...which is why we all play magic...the luck of the draw, the manipulation of the deck through various LEGAL game mechanics (lol, suspension shuffles not withstanding), the advantage over your opponent, the skillful piloting of one's cards.
if you want an even playing field, go play AGOT or netrunner....
Wizards did everything right with printing this card. It is beautifully positioned, and enables brew hats everywhere.
just because it fuels everyone's hands mid game does not warrant a banning.
November 11, 2014 5:33 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #40
DRS was banned because he was played in any deck that ran one of his colors. Naya splashed black, Burn splashed two colors, and BGx became dominant. The same is becoming true of Cruise. Delver is getting to Jund levels of oppressiveness, and the card is being put in places it shouldn't really be.
"Wizards did everything right with printing this card. It is beautifully positioned, and enables brew hats everywhere."
This is completely incorrect.
November 11, 2014 5:40 p.m.
this quickly turned into the "ban cruise / defend cruise" thread. cruise is just fine imo, it is not over the top.
back to the original reason behind the thread, I don't think jund is dead as an archtype, there are card choices that need to be changed now, but I think Jund is fine as it is. The best thing about everyone jumping on a new deck's bandwagon is, you get to brew to beat it, and then go win a tournament like the legacy dredge guy a few weeks back...1st place! made me proud
November 11, 2014 5:48 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #42
Jund certainly is still viable. It just needs to be built a different way. I'll agree to let the Cruise argument go. :)
November 11, 2014 5:51 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #43
Haha, thanks. I understand we all go off on tangents sometimes, all is good :). I just posted a jund deck list that is a little different than normal that got 3rd place at an IQ if anyone wants to check it out. Also, if you have any card suggestions that you think can be good in Jund, feel free to post it on here and open it to discussion. :D
November 11, 2014 6:01 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #44
If Cruise and Golgari Grave-Troll switch places, Dredge Jund could be a thing, however, I don't think Jund is too bad at the moment.
We just haven't seen it because there have been no notable events, with only MTGO results to give us an idea. MTGO is a terrible example of what a PT or GP meta is going to be because everyone has bad cheap decks.
November 11, 2014 6:26 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #45
Well, there are enough people playing fetchlands and expensive stuff to tell me that it's reasonable to think about MTGO results as reasonably representative.
I don't think Dredge Jund would be a thing outside of Loam, just because the Grave-Troll is a little bit too expensive to cast for just a big dumb guy.
November 11, 2014 6:32 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #46
GlistenerAgent If everyone in an 8 man is playing an actual deck, and not a crappy aggro homebrew, then that's a good indicator of the meta, but generally there are heaps of people playing random bad decks. It's frustrating, because I want to play against decks that I will see at a GP, like Pod, Scapeshift, UWR control and UR Delver.
Jund is pretty much not played on MTGO, but will still exist at GPs.
November 11, 2014 6:40 p.m.
I think Jund may get a boost of some sort before the Pro Tour if cruise sticks around. Aaron Forsythe said last week that they were letting modern go without any bannings until the next modern GP comes and goes.
Right now Jund should absolutely ditch bob and go for more life gain. Jund can easily out grind delver if it survives the early game.
CrazyLittleGuy, Off season MTGO results and small paper tournaments do not a meta make, Pro Tours and GP's are where the real power of new cards shine.
November 11, 2014 7:15 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #48
Yea, I'm really hoping to see some good modern (and legacy) jund games in GP NJ. @wnorris17, taking out Dark Confidant is an interesting idea for life gain, what would you suggest to put in his place? Maybe Thragtusk for example? (Just as an example). I would be interested in hearing what you have to say on this. Or by life gain to you mean life-link? Or a combination of both?
November 11, 2014 7:26 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #49
Courser of Kruphix and Obstinate Baloth are your best bet. Huntmaster of the Fells Flip is solid, but I think i would prefer the Baloths right now. Thragtusk costs just a little too much to be good.
November 11, 2014 7:30 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #50
I like the idea of "huntmaster jund." Seems like it could be powerful. I personally would like to work on that, so I think ill go brew right now
CommanderOfBolas says... #2
Jund is a shard, not a wedge. Also, Jund is very down in popularity at the moment. It just isn't good the way it used to be. Maybe we will se something to give it a boost soon.
fingers crossed
November 10, 2014 9:01 p.m.