Domri Rade vs. Liliana of the Veil
Modern forum
Posted on Jan. 15, 2014, 11:45 p.m. by GlistenerAgent
I'd like to start a discussion of the comparative power levels of Domri Rade and Liliana of the Veil in Modern. I personally am in favor of Domri Rade for the following reasons:
- Compare the abilities of the planeswalkers. Both have +1, -2 and -6 abilities and come in at 3 loyalty for 3 mana. Domri Rade 's +1 is strictly better than Liliana of the Veil 's +1 in my opinion because it can net card advantage, while Liliana's ability forces her controller to discard as well. The -2 abilities are fairly similar, as decks with Domri are often fighting with Loxodon Smiter s and Tarmogoyf s among other efficient beatsticks, while Liliana's can be effectively countered by fetching Dryad Arbor . The -6 abilities are comparable as well, as Liliana's ends the game by attrition while Domri's ends the game by pure ass-kicking.
- Domri is more powerful in current Modern than Liliana. Against Birthing Pod decks, Liliana is practically useless, while Domri can keep the Naya deck afloat or even ahead by drawing Scavenging Ooze 's, Thundermaw Hellkite 's, etc. Splinter Twin is also favorable for Domri, as the combo deck usually can't handle the consistent stream of threats. Liliana can be handled fairly well by Splinter Twin , as the deck is resilient to disruption. Liliana decks also have difficulty with Affinity, as Affinity is extremely redundant and pumps out so many creatures that sacrificing one is irrelevant. Domri can fight down a key Steel Overseer or other such engine creature.
In general, I see Domri Rade as a more powerful planeswalker in Modern than Liliana of the Veil because of his greater ability to interact as well as because the decks that play him are much more competent with the rest of the format than Liliana of the Veil . Jund wins mostly on the back of Tarmogoyf , Dark Confidant and removal, and not so much the planeswalker. I'd love to hear your thoughts, so please tell me I'm wrong. :)
Epochalyptik says... #3
You forget that Liliana of the Veil 's +1 is leveraged to feed Tarmogoyf , and that the inherent disadvantage of discarding is offset by the draw power from your Dark Confidant s. Liliana of the Veil is exactly what Jund wants: an attrition-oriented advantage generator. She's a utility, not a win condition.
Domri Rade has applications, but it lacks the direct disruption and offense Liliana of the Veil provides. Domri Rade 's -2 is the only ability that directly interferes with your opponent, whereas all of Liliana of the Veil 's abilities do that. Furthermore, Liliana of the Veil 's + ability provides instant results; Domri Rade 's + ability has a large chance of whiffing, and it doesn't give you huge advantage even when it does hit. You still have to hardcast the revealed card.
January 15, 2014 11:57 p.m.
Lili's discarding is more reliable card advantage than Domri's. You're going to be playing lost of low cost spells in the current Jund, so you'll probably be discarding nothing or nothing helpful, and that ability feeds Tarmogoyf.
January 16, 2014 12:12 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
Also, Domri Rade 's ult is a -7, not a -6. The extra cost puts it that much more out of reach, since the -2 is the only direct disruption Domri Rade has (and it's largely dependent on board state, too). If you need to interfere with your opponent, you end up setting back your ult so far that you probably won't ever get use it.
January 16, 2014 12:15 a.m.
They are both easily in the top 10 planeswalkers, but I think Liliana of the Veil still edges ahead.
A lot of your examples give the worst case scenarios to examining Liliana of the Veil while hand waving that Domri Rade is better. For instance,
- "The -2 abilities are fairly similar, as decks with Domri are often fighting with Loxodon Smiter s and Tarmogoyf s among other efficient beatsticks, while Liliana's can be effectively countered by fetching Dryad Arbor ."
is certainly true, but if you're examining the worst case then you should mention Domri Rade -2 can be blown out much worse than Liliana of the Veil . Dryad Arbor still dies at least. If they pump or kill in response to Domri Rade then you've done basically nothing, or worse.
Ultimately, I think what makes Liliana of the Veil superior is she doesn't need any other cards to do anything. While Domri Rade does indeed help find you creatures, it still requires them in order to have effects. A self contained threat will always be better.
January 16, 2014 12:34 a.m.
When talking about Planeswalkers Liliana of the Veil is just about the second best walker printed (behind JTMS of course) and in Modern her versatility can't be topped off by Domri Rade She's just better with everything she does. Dom needs creatures to do stuff Lili just does it on her own. And the most obvious evidence I call upon to back up my case is price. Look at what Liliana of the Veil runs at when she was standard and now. She saw play in the eternal formats long before she cycled out and still maintains that premium pricetag.
January 16, 2014 2 a.m.
I am in favor of Liliana of the Veil
as well. Liliana is better than you give her credit for in the pod matchup (as even if it gets the weakest dude it still can mess with the pod chain and you could force them to discard a key piece of the pod chain) and is much better against combo decks, not named living end or other combos involving the graveyard then domri and in those matchup neither planeswalker is really where you want to be (actually planeswalkers in general struggle in those matchups as you really want instant speed answers or graveyard hate) . Both have pros and cons against living end but both are not super amazing against living end.
Domri's -2 can be just as inconstant as Liliiana's, i.e you just have domri and a mana dork and your opponent has a Tarmogoyf . You could also run into situations mentioned above by the others in which your opponent can tip the fight in their favor i.e a pump spell or removal for the dude you are fighting with. Yes Liliana has her problems too (which is kind of a good thing or else it wouldn't be healthy for the game) but I personally feel she is a better card most of the time as she has more potential to dominate the game by herself.
One last minor point before I conclude this is being mono-colored has it's perks. This is really a small point and is debatable how much of advantage it is but it can be an advantage I do think this advantage is more of one in legacy then modern where it is possible to go Dark Ritual into Lilliana turn 1 but still it has its advantages.
Just want to conclude by saying I don't think domri is a weak card or anything (he can be very very strong) it's just personally I feel Liliana is better. Just my opinion though, nothing wrong with disagreeing.
January 16, 2014 2:09 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #9
U ever top deck against a Lilly? Yea, well u ever top deck against a Domri Rade ? that should some things up.
Domri Rade is far short of Liliana of the Veil in all aspects.
January 16, 2014 3:07 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #10
Jp3ngu1nb0y says...
"In short, you're wrong. Very, very wrong. I apologize for not going into full detail, but it's late."
That.
January 16, 2014 11:16 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #11
To be perfectly clear, I do believe that Liliana of the Veil is more powerful than Domri Rade in a void. I'm just trying to make a case for the Gruul planeswalker here. I'm aware that Liliana of the Veil is more potent, which is trivial from comparing their price tags.
In my opinion, the best decks in Modern as of this post are Jund, Affinity, Splinter Twin , Birthing Pod , R/G Tron and U/W/R shells. I'd like to compare how these decks perform with a Liliana of the Veil on the other side of the table versus if a Domri Rade is in play for the opponent.
Jund: The mirrormatch for Liliana of the Veil decks is fairly even, you can't expect her to be at an advantage against herself. Domri Rade decks are slightly disadvantaged here, but playing Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege helps.
Affinity: Liliana of the Veil and her Jund cronies are severely disadvantaged against Affinity. The Robots deck pours out creatures like anything, and often doesn't care about discarding a random creature to Liliana or sacrificing one of its 0/2s. I think Domri Rade decks are also down here, but can on occasion -2 their way out of bad situations.
Splinter Twin : I believe that this matchup is a little weak for both planeswalkers, as their -2 abilities are both practically blanked. However, the Splinter Twin deck's difficulty with stopping very aggressive strategies gives the edge to Domri Rade in my mind, as Liliana of the Veil decks don't play any efficient threats that Domri Rade decks don't (both play Tarmogoyf ).
Birthing Pod : Pod has answers to both of these decks. Voice of Resurgence as well as Eternal Witness and Reveillark beat Liliana of the Veil in, while Kitchen Finks and Spike Feeder beat Domri Rade aggro strategies pretty well. I think both planeswalkers are equally (and not very) favorable here.
R/G Tron: This matchup is funky for both planeswalkers. Both lose to turn 3 Karn Liberated , and their -2 abilities are blanks.
U/W/R: The aggro version with Geist of Saint Traft , Steppe Lynx , Delver of Secrets Flip and burn spells is OK for both planeswalkers, as practically any creature out of Naya can fight down a Delver and Liliana is the perfect answer to Geist. The midrange/control versions are better for Domri than for Liliana, because Liliana doesn't do much against control besides letting them discard removal to Snapcast (the deck is also pretty weak to Path to Exile ), and Domri midrange decks can keep the beatdown going with creatures out of Bolt range.
I'd like to restate that I do agree that Liliana of the Veil is better than Domri Rade overall. I am simply trying to present a case of why Domri Rade is somewhat more relevant and powerful in the current Modern format than Liliana of the Veil is. Thanks for replying!
January 16, 2014 3:24 p.m.
Domri Rade is great but your deck has to run 26+ to even try and reliably net cards off of him and you need boardstate to use his second ability and I would talk about the third ability but because it means your opponent neither knows how to build or play a deck for you to ever be able to use it it seems pointless to mention.
Next Liliana of the Veil is good in any deck that runs black in modern not just ones that build around her. Unlike Domri she is not a centerpiece she is the perfect utility card with options that always help you, and left unchecked she wins the game. That is why these cards arnt really comparable, they are in two seperate catagories, one is dying to have decks built around it while the other is something that is too good not to play.
January 17, 2014 2:32 a.m.
these two are fairly different, and like D3fied said they fill different roles. Its like comparing Apples and Peaches, they are both fruit, and very good fruit, but they are also ver different, they are about the same size and shape, but different colors, and used in different recipes.
January 17, 2014 9:27 a.m.
I cant..
Lili eats domri for breakfast. Domri is good if you have a board full of creatures, Lili is good...basically always. She puts the opponent in a spot that is very hard to get out of, usually leaving them top decking with no board presence.
I would go on more but I cant right now, sorry.
Jay says... #2
In short, you're wrong. Very, very wrong. I apologize for not going into full detail, but it's late.
January 15, 2014 11:53 p.m.